Silversteel & Rabbit dish = in work
Please do me one favour: Just because there is an inbalance in the game, do not suggest to put in more inbalances to balance the inbalances out (:lol). The Silversteel armor is the inbalanced thing, not the drops of liches. Liches are damn fucking hard to kill for the majority of characters and when you nerf the drops to the niveau of mummies, you win nothing. It is known that the Silversteel armor is the best in the game. Rebalancing the fighting system is in work, the result will be a state where there is no "best" item anymore.
Rabbit dishes are inbalanced because the one who assigned the ingredients and minimum skills for them had no idea of the filling. Balancing this is almost done, nudge a dev to speed this up.
Afterall, I still do not see how a class system would fix the mentioned problems of Silversteel armor and rabbit dishes.
Experts in everything?
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Estralis Seborian
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Of course not. Just answered the earlier question of why so many have Silversteel armor and also added on another example of strange things I had to ask about in it. I then continued the discussion below that. Not that strange I think...Estralis Seborian wrote:Silversteel & Rabbit dish = in work
Please do me one favour: Just because there is an inbalance in the game, do not suggest to put in more inbalances to balance the inbalances out (:lol). The Silversteel armor is the inbalanced thing, not the drops of liches. Liches are damn fucking hard to kill for the majority of characters and when you nerf the drops to the niveau of mummies, you win nothing. It is known that the Silversteel armor is the best in the game. Rebalancing the fighting system is in work, the result will be a state where there is no "best" item anymore.
Rabbit dishes are inbalanced because the one who assigned the ingredients and minimum skills for them had no idea of the filling. Balancing this is almost done, nudge a dev to speed this up.
Afterall, I still do not see how a class system would fix the mentioned problems of Silversteel armor and rabbit dishes.
When it comes to the Lich... Sure it is hard to kill for anyone. Fact is thought that when a couple of really good warriors can manage the liches and kill like 10 of them if they are in a good run, then there might be 5 silversteel armour there. My point is that maybe those kind of armour should be for good smiths only and maybe be found in treasure maps? But ah, well.. What do I know. One can only give ones point of view. I am sure you who "work" with the game knows best. Sometimes it can help to geed ordinary users point if view though. Guess this was not the case this time then.
Really glad to hear that you are working on these things though! =)
EDIT: I did not mean that the liches needed to have lousy loot - I just think the silversteel armours should be worse than the ones good smiths make. So maybe worse quality and so on... A lich probably don't take care of it's armour I mean... (forgot the word "care" before I edited again...)
Last edited by Hawkmoon on Tue Nov 25, 2008 12:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Juliana D'cheyne
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Silversteel is a good armor yes, but so are others. In fact this char doesn't wear it preferring another instead. As far as the lich drops a lot of times yes, two good warriors... and by good I mean VERY good, can kill it however there is that small chance (and have run across it a couple of times now) that the lich will be faster making mages then those two good warriors 
. If you had silversteel drop even every other time, things have changed since this char tried the lich's. What is the point of two or more chars getting in a group to fight reds and lich's if you don't get good drops??
. If you had silversteel drop even every other time, things have changed since this char tried the lich's. What is the point of two or more chars getting in a group to fight reds and lich's if you don't get good drops?? Silversteel is good armor......but is also popular.I did not mean that the liches needed to have lousy loot - I just think the silversteel armours should be worse than the ones good smiths make. So maybe worse quality and so on... A lich probably don't take of it's armour I mean...
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Estralis Seborian
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100 liches are supposed to yield 10 silversteel armors of above average quality (7/9 or such). So, 10 liches yield one silversteel. Sounds like a fair reward for the fucking best monster that is spawned. Sure, a bunch of good fighters can take it out, but that is just intended. Spawncamping, high respawn rates of bosses, weak monsters, overrated fighting stance (...) are -at least for me- no reason to nerf the drops.
@Hawkmoon: Your opinions matters a lot! The Illarion staff is working constantly on the named aspects to improve the game. In the end, I and every other GM is just an "ordinary" player, too. So, when I voice my opinion, I voice my very own opinion, not something that is carved into stone. Nitram, Vilarion et al. might disagree - the more opinions present, the better the result of a discussion as long as opinions are treated as opinions.
@Hawkmoon: Your opinions matters a lot! The Illarion staff is working constantly on the named aspects to improve the game. In the end, I and every other GM is just an "ordinary" player, too. So, when I voice my opinion, I voice my very own opinion, not something that is carved into stone. Nitram, Vilarion et al. might disagree - the more opinions present, the better the result of a discussion as long as opinions are treated as opinions.
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JonathanSmith
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Here is a proposal, with that I want to support and confirm Hawkmoons good proposal and arguments:
1) Proposal for "Boss-Drops" analoge Diablo2's Quest-Drops:
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The first time you beat a red skeleton, the lich, the golem, the white skeleton down in the crypta, etc. a top-drop is guaranteed (silversteel, magic items, whatever). Beating the same boss again, results only in an adequate drop of coins and/or resources. To make the monster still intersting to fight against, maybe a top-drop at a very low chance could be given (e.g. Lich 1/1000, red skeleton 1/10000, golem 1/5000, ...)
Analoge treasure maps: The first time you discover a treasure of a certain type (farmer, smuggler, gnome, silver item, dragon, etc.), a top-drop is guaranteed. All further tries result in adequate coins and resources or top-drops at a very low chance.
That gives the back the means of existence to the crafter players (mainly the smiths at the moment).
2) Skill specialization
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I am a unheard supported of this point since 2 years...
Beeing able to max. out ALL available skills is completely nonsens IMHO.
The current skills can be divided in following sections:
A) Crafting (all crafting and resource skills count)
B) Fighting (only the active skills count)
C) Magic (only the 5 active skills count)
Future maybe
D) DRUID
E) PRIEST
F) BARD
...
Proposal:
Only TWO single skills can be maxed.
Those two skills can spread over two sections or can cover the same section.
Examples: A smithing Swordsman (A+B). A mining Smith (A+A). A Knight (B+B).
A character who chooses to cover only ONE section might be rewarded in faster skillgain.
All other skills can reach max. 10% (or any other low level). If one lower skill advances over 10%, one higher skill is reduced by the same amount (e.g. 11% mining, 80% smithing and 85% slashing => 11 + 1 = 12% mining, 80 - 1 = 79% smithing )
This proposal would eliminate the
- mulit crafters
- stabbing/shlashing/shooting/etc. warriors
- the allmighty mages
- many other implausible character builds
and maybe bring more interesting character builds IG.
Additionally one extra max. skill could be added to characters for players who support Illarion with a suporting membership (Fördermitgliedschaft).
1) Proposal for "Boss-Drops" analoge Diablo2's Quest-Drops:
----------------------------------------------------------------------
The first time you beat a red skeleton, the lich, the golem, the white skeleton down in the crypta, etc. a top-drop is guaranteed (silversteel, magic items, whatever). Beating the same boss again, results only in an adequate drop of coins and/or resources. To make the monster still intersting to fight against, maybe a top-drop at a very low chance could be given (e.g. Lich 1/1000, red skeleton 1/10000, golem 1/5000, ...)
Analoge treasure maps: The first time you discover a treasure of a certain type (farmer, smuggler, gnome, silver item, dragon, etc.), a top-drop is guaranteed. All further tries result in adequate coins and resources or top-drops at a very low chance.
That gives the back the means of existence to the crafter players (mainly the smiths at the moment).
2) Skill specialization
------------------------
I am a unheard supported of this point since 2 years...
Beeing able to max. out ALL available skills is completely nonsens IMHO.
The current skills can be divided in following sections:
A) Crafting (all crafting and resource skills count)
B) Fighting (only the active skills count)
C) Magic (only the 5 active skills count)
Future maybe
D) DRUID
E) PRIEST
F) BARD
...
Proposal:
Only TWO single skills can be maxed.
Those two skills can spread over two sections or can cover the same section.
Examples: A smithing Swordsman (A+B). A mining Smith (A+A). A Knight (B+B).
A character who chooses to cover only ONE section might be rewarded in faster skillgain.
All other skills can reach max. 10% (or any other low level). If one lower skill advances over 10%, one higher skill is reduced by the same amount (e.g. 11% mining, 80% smithing and 85% slashing => 11 + 1 = 12% mining, 80 - 1 = 79% smithing )
This proposal would eliminate the
- mulit crafters
- stabbing/shlashing/shooting/etc. warriors
- the allmighty mages
- many other implausible character builds
and maybe bring more interesting character builds IG.
Additionally one extra max. skill could be added to characters for players who support Illarion with a suporting membership (Fördermitgliedschaft).
Hrm... as 1 of the jack-of-all-trades IG, i know how hard it is to level up the skills and takes ages to do so. Just because there are fighter-crafter who is better than you in crafting, doesn't mean you get to whine and change the system. Instead... work your crafting further since those fighter-crafter was skilling their crafting as well. Those fighter-crafter spend a long time to craft as well you know, it's not like by fighting they will gain crafting skill. They went to the exact same painful phase as the pure crafters as well. In fact they actually do a much more painful phase since they will have to spend time to fight as well.
After all those long long hours of spending their time into fighting and crafting, you think they don't deserves the rewards of making money by selling their crafted items? If they willing to sell it cheap then it's their loss since they won't be making lots of money. And also... if you are a crafter... you can somewhat RP it and make a "brand". Sell your items... and let it be known to the other players that your items are top quality or something. Rarely any crafters IG.. actually sounds like a 100% businessman. The crafters just play around like normal people, if it's like that then even if you craft and pretty good at it you won't be known at all except to your own friends. In fact... I only knew Guran, Garon and Rosendil who were always busy with their business and was active at selling their products, not sure now though since i'm not that active anymore.
If they can sell at cheap prices... why can't you? If you think it's not profitable to sell at those prices then don't sell it. The only thing the fighters would buy are the items except body armor and weapon. Since there are only a few good monster/treasure drops from them. The other reason would probably be... the crafters doesn't really know what they are crafting. Crafters with knowledge regarding what the armors/weapons do will surely have a better chance to sell their items.
The bottom line is... stop whining and train your char instead. Everyone walks on the same paths as you are whether it's in crafting, fighting or magic.
After all those long long hours of spending their time into fighting and crafting, you think they don't deserves the rewards of making money by selling their crafted items? If they willing to sell it cheap then it's their loss since they won't be making lots of money. And also... if you are a crafter... you can somewhat RP it and make a "brand". Sell your items... and let it be known to the other players that your items are top quality or something. Rarely any crafters IG.. actually sounds like a 100% businessman. The crafters just play around like normal people, if it's like that then even if you craft and pretty good at it you won't be known at all except to your own friends. In fact... I only knew Guran, Garon and Rosendil who were always busy with their business and was active at selling their products, not sure now though since i'm not that active anymore.
If they can sell at cheap prices... why can't you? If you think it's not profitable to sell at those prices then don't sell it. The only thing the fighters would buy are the items except body armor and weapon. Since there are only a few good monster/treasure drops from them. The other reason would probably be... the crafters doesn't really know what they are crafting. Crafters with knowledge regarding what the armors/weapons do will surely have a better chance to sell their items.
The bottom line is... stop whining and train your char instead. Everyone walks on the same paths as you are whether it's in crafting, fighting or magic.
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JonathanSmith
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We all know that it is really hard to become a jack-of-all-trades. And I personally also know very well, how painfull and time consuming it is, to master the characters skills.
But that is not the point here.
That proposal is intended to try to lead the players to play an authentic role IG. And characters are IMHO and in many others opinion not authentic, if they are a jack-of-all-trades crafters/fighters/mages/etc and members of every guild/group/etc.
But that is not the point here.
That proposal is intended to try to lead the players to play an authentic role IG. And characters are IMHO and in many others opinion not authentic, if they are a jack-of-all-trades crafters/fighters/mages/etc and members of every guild/group/etc.
In my believe... those jack-of-all-trades... has an authentic role. A job that's is the main part of the char. In my case... it's warlock which is fighter/mage... while i do crafting as a hobby rather than a job. I don't really sell my stuff unless it's a request from a friend or someone who needs help yet can't find any crafters around, in which sometimes i just give it to them for free. I don't go and offer everyone my stuff, coz it's not my real job. But then again... cause of all of those there are penalty, which is... the char ended up not good in anything compared to those who is specially build for a certain job.
As far as i know, behemoth is not even around much and doesn't really sell his stuff as well, except to those he knows unless he needs some coins. He's mainly a fighter.
For the "members of every guild/group/etc." part, somehow i doubt there are those kind of people... yet. One of the reason would be it's not necessary to do so. Actually most would probably at most in 2 some sort of guilds. One is for what they do... and the other is where they live in. I wonder if there is a char that actually try to join every single guild available. And even if there is a char who tried... most likely some guilds would reject them, if they are accepted everywhere... then the leader of the guild need to widen their network and check for the member's background.
With that... i can say no char that's actually a jack-of-all-trades crafters/fighters/mages/etc and members of every guild/group/etc. Btw... as for fighters/mages combo... it's not that popular because it's a hard combo to train. Thus the proposal seems to try and made the game restricted for no real reason, since there is no such char that's expert in everything. Probably the closest one would be mine, but then again mine got some penalty due to stats, which means.. you just need to train your own char to be better.
Just my opinion... '-'a
As far as i know, behemoth is not even around much and doesn't really sell his stuff as well, except to those he knows unless he needs some coins. He's mainly a fighter.
For the "members of every guild/group/etc." part, somehow i doubt there are those kind of people... yet. One of the reason would be it's not necessary to do so. Actually most would probably at most in 2 some sort of guilds. One is for what they do... and the other is where they live in. I wonder if there is a char that actually try to join every single guild available. And even if there is a char who tried... most likely some guilds would reject them, if they are accepted everywhere... then the leader of the guild need to widen their network and check for the member's background.
With that... i can say no char that's actually a jack-of-all-trades crafters/fighters/mages/etc and members of every guild/group/etc. Btw... as for fighters/mages combo... it's not that popular because it's a hard combo to train. Thus the proposal seems to try and made the game restricted for no real reason, since there is no such char that's expert in everything. Probably the closest one would be mine, but then again mine got some penalty due to stats, which means.. you just need to train your own char to be better.
Just my opinion... '-'a
Problem is that when one can do everything then there will be way for the true crafters to earn some money. Another problem is that a char that starts out as warrior and then learn how to craft easily can afford material and in that way train much faster. Running out of material and money - just go and kill some monster and you can buy whatever you want. Not to mention all monster droppings. One could easily be a tailor while fighting zombies at the side considering all colored cloth and entrails they drop.
The biggest problem with mutliexperts is that they easily get far more resources than crafters only.
If we want a RPG with focus on RP I believe something has to be done about this.
The biggest problem with mutliexperts is that they easily get far more resources than crafters only.
If we want a RPG with focus on RP I believe something has to be done about this.
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JonathanSmith
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Agree, if there would be a "no" between "be" and "way"Hawkmoon wrote:Problem is that when one can do everything then there will be way for the true crafters to earn some money.
Additionally there are too many good drops from monsters and treasures.
Currently there is no real need to buy from smithes, because nearly everything drops.
I do not agree with the resources problem. A crafting fighter/mage (speaking with my experiences with John Smith .. he is mainly a warrior, but does also some smithing) the fighter has to spend the same time or maybe more to earn the money which is needed to buy the resources. Additionally he has to interact a lot with other characters, to organize and manage his craft .. which could be seen as a benefit for the game and the economy.Hawkmoon wrote: Another problem is that a char that starts out as warrior and then learn how to craft easily can afford material and in that way train much faster. Running out of material and money - just go and kill some monster and you can buy whatever you want. Not to mention all monster droppings. One could easily be a tailor while fighting zombies at the side considering all colored cloth and entrails they drop.
The biggest problem with mutliexperts is that they easily get far more resources than crafters only.
Resources are the main problem for every crafter (except the carpenters maybe, which can use mules to lumberjack ..). Ever tried to mine as a guest in silverbrand? Or tried to make some hundred dry leathers with only 4 pigs available in trolls bane, which do not constantly drop meat+entrails+leather, as in earlier times (oh ... and I loved that multispan bug, if the pig pen was full with 10, 20 or more pigs ... ). Today it is really painful to get some leathers... And today much more resources are needed to craft compared to the state before the 'new crafting system'.
No matter what anyone says, this game needs to be FUN simultaniously with every other aspect of the game.
On another note, who gives a shit if someone can skill everything, No they CAN'T do everything because no warrior will max his dexterity, and so his smithed wears will never be the best and he cannot make everything on the list.
Some people also need to understand that there should not be limits on things that already take an insane amount of effort and time from our lives. It's hard and anti-social enough to train to be multi skilled, why should those people take any more punishments?
If you want to specialise in one skill, go max those attributes and then train, and sell better wares than all the warrior crafters who spent way longer than you to be crapper.
On another note, who gives a shit if someone can skill everything, No they CAN'T do everything because no warrior will max his dexterity, and so his smithed wears will never be the best and he cannot make everything on the list.
Some people also need to understand that there should not be limits on things that already take an insane amount of effort and time from our lives. It's hard and anti-social enough to train to be multi skilled, why should those people take any more punishments?
If you want to specialise in one skill, go max those attributes and then train, and sell better wares than all the warrior crafters who spent way longer than you to be crapper.
Who says there are no warriors with maxed dexterity?Retlak wrote:No matter what anyone says, this game needs to be FUN simultaniously with every other aspect of the game.
On another note, who gives a shit if someone can skill everything, No they CAN'T do everything because no warrior will max his dexterity, and so his smithed wears will never be the best and he cannot make everything on the list.
Some people also need to understand that there should not be limits on things that already take an insane amount of effort and time from our lives. It's hard and anti-social enough to train to be multi skilled, why should those people take any more punishments?
If you want to specialise in one skill, go max those attributes and then train, and sell better wares than all the warrior crafters who spent way longer than you to be crapper.
And when a char is around for a long time that char easily can be experts in many areas I say.
And the problem is that even the best potential crafters who only do crafting will not be able to train that much because few people buy things and he need a lot of wares to be able to even train... A bit cost to train crafting and noone buys it in the beginning for a quite long while... Ah, well.. =)
If you know about the fighter path, you won't say it's easy to get money at all. First.. they would need to know which monsters to fight to get their skills. Second there is a danger of getting clouded and lost skill. Third... to get the insane amount of money... they would need to be able to fight red skeletons... which is pretty high. The time to get those money isn't as short as you think, not to mention the higher risk of getting clouded. From my experience... it took me months to get there, since i only train like once or twice a day. Within those months... if you keep on training you should be able to be ahead of those fighter/crafter wannabe pretty far. That's only the training, getting the huge amount of money will take quite long again. I would only be able to get around 10 silver each trip for like 1-2 hours fighting red skeletons, the best money maker monster. Unless you know someone who own good treasure maps... you won't be getting anywhere with the coins for quite long.
And then the next part... the crafter path. Sure he can buy the materials. Iron ingots around 7-10 coppers each. For 1-2 hours fighting trip he would be able to get.. 100 to 142 ingots. With money you can't really buy anything without a seller... then he would need to look for the seller again. With all those ingots, sadly... the fighter/crafter won't actually be getting much. For me... I mostly mine all those ores and coals myself. You just need to know where to mine them Still think it's easier to be a fighter/crafter? Then you should be one... really 
After that... remind me how easy the fighter/crafter path is 
Btw with max dex (human) you only need like 80% skill 
EDIT:
A reminder... my crafter path... as a warlock... was pretty much gather the materials on my own... and i mostly tossed away the items i made. So... don't give me the crap that only a few people buy your stuff etc. There is like no cost at all in crafting.... you just have to gather the materials yourself. It's when you try to make other work for you in gathering the materials then... you need money. If you just want to be some kind of high and mighty crafter who doesn't want to do the dirty work on your own then... kill some relatives and grab the inheritance XD Even in real life those crafters either work their ass doing something else or work for someone else to get the money to start their own business. Get a rich daddy IG to support you or something
And then the next part... the crafter path. Sure he can buy the materials. Iron ingots around 7-10 coppers each. For 1-2 hours fighting trip he would be able to get.. 100 to 142 ingots. With money you can't really buy anything without a seller... then he would need to look for the seller again. With all those ingots, sadly... the fighter/crafter won't actually be getting much. For me... I mostly mine all those ores and coals myself. You just need to know where to mine them
Still think it's easier to be a fighter/crafter? Then you should be one... really After that... remind me how easy the fighter/crafter path is Btw with max dex (human) you only need like 80% skill EDIT:
A reminder... my crafter path... as a warlock... was pretty much gather the materials on my own... and i mostly tossed away the items i made. So... don't give me the crap that only a few people buy your stuff etc. There is like no cost at all in crafting.... you just have to gather the materials yourself. It's when you try to make other work for you in gathering the materials then... you need money. If you just want to be some kind of high and mighty crafter who doesn't want to do the dirty work on your own then... kill some relatives and grab the inheritance XD Even in real life those crafters either work their ass doing something else or work for someone else to get the money to start their own business. Get a rich daddy IG to support you or something
Last edited by ogerawa on Wed Nov 26, 2008 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
to Retlatk: The "best warrior" is a single person, if i got your grammar right. And one char is not quite like talking about all.
My little Ssar'ney has maxed dex (19), what maybe has been a mistake, but he can kill almost everything that is normally spawned (like golems or red warriors) with that and quite low skills and cheap equipment. If I ever once should get the idea, that crafting is not boring and useless compared to fighting or even would fit his role, he would become a not too bad smith additional to the not very bad fighting ability, i think.
Furthermore stabbingfighters or archers need high dex. And the right poisoned daggers or arrows with the right skills and attributes are nearly as good as swords with the same optimation.
In the End I would say a restriction like Smith proposed would not be bad.
My little Ssar'ney has maxed dex (19), what maybe has been a mistake, but he can kill almost everything that is normally spawned (like golems or red warriors) with that and quite low skills and cheap equipment. If I ever once should get the idea, that crafting is not boring and useless compared to fighting or even would fit his role, he would become a not too bad smith additional to the not very bad fighting ability, i think.
Furthermore stabbingfighters or archers need high dex. And the right poisoned daggers or arrows with the right skills and attributes are nearly as good as swords with the same optimation.
In the End I would say a restriction like Smith proposed would not be bad.
I think this is what the proposal is all about. That someone should not be able to do something over average in something that is not his main-"work".Retlak wrote:A mage with max fighting skills can kill a red skeleton if he wanted.
That statement shows quite impressive, that attributes don´t have much influence on the income, done by fighting what was the main issue up to now.
And as attributes are not eanough to restrict what a char can do extremely good onto some few things, something as the proposed system is usefull in my eyes.