Illarion.org

Awesome Holy Knight! Thanks!

I'll also make another 'peasant' character.

I say more power to you if you create a peasant character. I'd join you but I already have a secondary character. I have a chief character and I get just what Juniper stated, constant things people want from me in my little bit of spare time. Though I don't think my secondary character may not make for a good peasant character (and knowing my luck that as soon as Dan retires/or is retired, my secondary character will end up replacing him as a leader/well known character).

Maybe I'll get on my elf who is kind of a merchant. If I played him more his concept would be going to different towns to sell and buy items. So he would be able to help spread the money around by buying things that people may need and sell it in another town. Being as I have a lack of time to play this character (and my secondary character for that matter), may I suggest that someone else do this as well? I think it would greatly increase rp and rp possiblities as well as spread money around.

How's about an npc which sells all building materials?

i really don't think, that is necessary.

what chester/juniper writes sums it up. we just need more peasants.
building as it is, is just fine. one needs a lot of money, that leaves the game. and one needs lots of materials, so that peasants are needed (lumber jacks, brickmakers, stonemasons, miners)

and the fact, that an evil barony, that is played as "no go" area, has not enough peasants to produce buildingmaterials, is really a sign that the social life ingame works fine.

the most logic option to drain more money from the game would be to make life more expensive.
but that would hit the "pure roleplayers" right between the eyes.

so that leaves just gambling of any kind as a second option to building.
the question with gambling is, will simple NPCs be attractive enough, that react to the desire to gamble just with scripted messages: "you lost" - "you won" and a substraction or a addition of money?
those could be written with the simple language.
everything more sophisticated aparently couldn't be done because of shortage of manpower in the staff.

korm
ps: i too would be in favour of cheaper "personal" depots in private houses.

There is a general problem in the money flow.
Them main misunderstanding is, that the amount of money floating
arouns is messed up with the economical power of the chars.

Both are related, because they should be proportional.
If the work capacity increases, but the amount of currency is fix,
then we have a deflation. If the amount of money increases, while
productivity holds its level we have a inflation.

A common problem for most crafters is, that there is a problem of
too less money to do pay or be paid in a trade. So the people try to
barter trade and exchange it with other goods. But the general lack of
money that is ready to flow is, that a lot of crafters have problems
to calculate their prices, because they know I need x food of type y,
but they can't tell what it would cost, if they pay their stuff they need
with money.

Everybody (crafter I mean) who has money, holds it together for planned
building, because if he spend it to buy ressources, he can't be sure that
he can earn it back in a reasonable way.

Only if you are good enough to run your business with mostly player
customers, you hope that they have money to pay you. For everything
else, producing for NPC merchants while buying ressources instead of
gathering themself is money destruction. A lot of products have no
NPC trader who buys them, and it is impossible to sell products, you
made to train your skill to a player, because it lacks a certain level of
quality.

High pitched fighters who slaughter dragons one per day or more if they
could to get pure elements...which they sell for 100 silver, well that is no
economical reasonable way to adjust the game for.

My idea is, but it needs the help of devs and a bunch of experienced
players of all professions to balance, that we get a standing or prestige
value that enables some slight but reasonable advantages for the char.

For example: To be wealthy and honored person in the council of a town,
you have to sacrifice things like garment, luxury goods like goblets,
cutlery frequently to uphold a certain level of prestige. Or sacrifice food
for the poor etc.

On the other hand, selling goods to the NPC while buying the ressources
from another palyer should be reasonable. Imho this won't harm the
player to player trade, because player crafters do better products than
the NPC traders sell.

I don't like the drop of high-quality armor and weapons for warriors.
These things should be crafted, not dropped. Drop instead a trophy
that can be sold to NPC as a kind of bounty. If crafters know that they
are able to re-earn spent money in a reasonable way, they will be
willing to spend it for some services, like guarding a trade caravan,
escorting miners to mines far away in more dangerous areas etc.

It would be easy to balance the money flow for warriors, by limiting
the amount of bounty paid per day. Or you can add the possibility
that the town leader places bounties for certain monsters, like:
it is winter and wolves block the roads east of Trolls Bane. The govenor
announces bounties for wolf ears to deal with it.

It is correct, that there are too few ways to spend your money.
But it is correct too, that the lack of free flowing money harms
the trades.

All the balancing that is needed is good and fine. But it all does not work if there is no base we can work with.

In ancient days there was the SMACC Price List for all items that were traded. Such a list is perfect to work with. The NPCs could use that list. It can be used to balance the drop of monsters. Such a thing would solve a lot of problems.
But sadly there is no such list. The the problems keep going.

Nitram

Nitram wrote:All the balancing that is needed is good and fine. But it all does not work if there is no base we can work with.

In ancient days there was the SMACC Price List for all items that were traded. Such a list is perfect to work with. The NPCs could use that list. It can be used to balance the drop of monsters. Such a thing would solve a lot of problems.
But sadly there is no such list. The the problems keep going.

Nitram

For those of us who weren't around in the olden days, what was the SMACC price list, how was the data collected, and is it something a volunteer (or volunteer team) could reproduce today?

The SMACC list was a pricelist of nearly for all items that were traded created by the players IG.

And i miss that list a lot...maybe we can revive it somehow?

It sounds like a great wiki page idea, since it's a consensus list (anyone can edit, and anyone can reverse changes).

I can't provide more then a Itemlist. The players have to set the prices in some way. Since they trade in the game.

But it would be a good start to set the prices of the base ressources you can get. Ores, Herbs, Wood, all that stuff. Then the rest in calculateable. Along with a addition for the work that is needed to make the product.

Such a list can be made up so it looks good. When its enforced by the NPCs IG the prices the players will work with, will be approximal the same.

Nitram

The way to start would be to put up the item list (sorted by category) on the wiki, on a page titled "Market Prices" or something similar. A couple of forum posts letting players know it's there and encouraging us to post prices from recent trades would probably be the best way to start.

It'll probably take a little while before it gets fleshed out, but it ought to do the job.

Have fun: http://illarion.org/community/wiki/inde ... _pricelist

*gasps* Well, thanks a lot, Master!

Categorized list of final products available. Will post it asap. Note: Around 400 entries. Problem: Item properties, required materials and required skill to craft do not match.

Yeah. That whole thing needs a rebalancing. But that will never be finished in case noone starts doing it.

Nitram wrote:Have fun: http://illarion.org/community/wiki/inde ... _pricelist

Do we assume items of average quality?

We're aiming for average prices, so I'd think so.

This should be an in-game thing though, not a wiki entry... let's try to get something started, shall we?

Faladron wrote:This should be an in-game thing though, not a wiki entry... let's try to get something started, shall we?

*remembers the Gobaith Carpenter's Association*

Faladron wrote:

AlexRose wrote: the only reason we don't build Caelum quick is none of us do crafting and other people don't make enough stuff to buy in bulk.

I for one do not consider that to be a bad thing...

Do you WANT to be flamed all the time? I mean, that's what you seem to be aiming for.

And I for one, don't think a lot of prices on that pricelist are accurate. Magical elven and dwarven state armour are NOT worth the same.

Hadrian_Abela wrote:

Faladron wrote:This should be an in-game thing though, not a wiki entry... let's try to get something started, shall we?

*remembers the Gobaith Carpenter's Association*

*remembers their drift into inactivity and complete failure afterwards*

Yet... it has begun...

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 659#492659

And I will personally ask for deletion of post and mayhaps warnings if that topic turns into some chit-chat with people disagreeing to the things mentioned in it.

nmaguire wrote:

Faladron wrote: I for one do not consider that to be a bad thing...

Do you WANT to be flamed all the time? I mean, that's what you seem to be aiming for.

I just try to make you feel good, it seems to be your destiny to flame me around the board.

EDIT not to spam the topic:

"It's nothing personal, you just keep writing stuff like that."

Read "stuff like that" as: "Voicing a different oppinion than you and your buddy pals so I desperately have to be made my mouth shut and my credibility destroyed at all cost."

Not working though

Faladron wrote:

nmaguire wrote:

Faladron wrote: I for one do not consider that to be a bad thing...

Do you WANT to be flamed all the time? I mean, that's what you seem to be aiming for.

I just try to make you feel good, it seems to be your destiny to flame me around the board.

It's nothing personal, you just keep writing stuff like that.

Just added a bunch of prices for stuff. Now I have a head-ache!

Enjoy!

i would like to suggest, that those who edit that pricelist, sign in with their forum name.
so that different opinions could be discussed.

(i just put in some well thought about prices, to see them partly altered by an "anonymous", who, from my point of view, made some errors.)

now i don't know, with whom to converse about it.

The list has a few problems.

1. People posting prices that don't have any idea what it takes to make the item in raw materials.

2. Skill to make it.

3. The HORRIBLE balance of weapons/armor in game. It is sad when only two swords and 2 armors are worth using (Considering only smithable). Need volunteers on re-working item stats?

Lrmy wrote:3. The HORRIBLE balance of weapons/armor in game. It is sad when only two swords and 2 armors are worth using (Considering only smithable). Need volunteers on re-working item stats?

Don't get me wrong now. I agree that the balancing is horrible. But the major problem that no every weapon and armor should be very good. There have to be some lower end weapons. The difference between the high and the low end weapons should be the amount of characters that can afford such a weapon.

Nitram

Lrmy wrote:The list has a few problems.

1. People posting prices that don't have any idea what it takes to make the item in raw materials.

2. Skill to make it.

3. The HORRIBLE balance of weapons/armor in game. It is sad when only two swords and 2 armors are worth using (Considering only smithable). Need volunteers on re-working item stats?

the purpose of the list is to record what prices people ARE paying in game, not to decide what they SHOULD pay. At least initially.... as such, it's going to take a while before it evens out.

Not quiete right there Elsi, the purpose of SMACC once was to determ the price of anything ingame, thus newbies or people who aren't trading much wouldn't be "pulled over the table" and paying ridicoulus prices for small items, with this creating a stable ground to trade.

Now looking at some prices, they are still ridicoulus overprized, just take a look at red dye, as long as I recall It only takes cherrys and onions to create the dye, but it costs 50 Copper, I don't exactly know the amount of items nor the skill, but taking in account that an apple pie, which takes 6 apples and 3 droughs to produce and is allready quiete an "experienced product", is sold for 20 coppers, there seems to be something really wrong about it.

Pellandria wrote:Now looking at some prices, they are still ridicoulus overprized, just take a look at red dye, as long as I recall It only takes cherrys and onions to create the dye, but it costs 50 Copper, I don't exactly know the amount of items nor the skill, but taking in account that an apple pie, which takes 6 apples and 3 droughs to produce and is allready quiete an "experienced product", is sold for 20 coppers, there seems to be something really wrong about it.

Red dye also takes a bucket which is lost during the smithing process. I'm not ready to commit to a hard price, but dye should be more expensive than pies.