Mr. Cromwell wrote:Why should things be consistent and stable?
It would be nice if there would be just ONE government in Trolls Bane consistent and stable, just for a while. Really.
And why? Maybe because it would add atmosphere that is definitely lacking with Trolls Bane. And you can't argue that, really. Trolls Bane is a joke.
Anyway, from what I see of all the responses most of the players still don't seem to be ready for a try. (Did I highlight 'try' already?).
So I guess we will just go for another round of eventual player created government and speak in a few months again.
I'm all for Gms ruling TB witn an ironfist. I think a dictatorship/monarchy is the best setting for an rpg, and only the gms have the power to make it work.
Thorvald wrote:It would be nice if there would be just ONE government in Trolls Bane consistent and stable, just for a while. Really.
And why? Maybe because it would add atmosphere that is definitely lacking with Trolls Bane. And you can't argue that, really. Trolls Bane is a joke.
Siltaris was governor for quite some time. But you can make a city only "stable", if you have the power to do that. But when your guards and allies are coming and going like the wind, you just have no chance to change something.
In this way, I am curious about Cromwell's "visions" and how he plans to realize them (although Midrusio is against his rulership).
And like it was said: A GM has not the time to be in town/game all the time to provide stability or make the things Scott Macleod was talking about come true. The only stability he could insure without masive time effort is a government (dictatorship) which can not be removed by PO force. How to explain that logically IG is another question.
Scott Macleod wrote:
Trollsbane has always been the 'starting' point for newbies. It should the the most 'orderly' and 'logical' town in Gobiath, leading to easy roleplay for the newbies.
I don't get how newbie starting point = GM government. Whether there is a GM leading it or not, with the current way Illa works, itll still be confusing for newbies, and 1/2 the player base will still unfortunately treat them like trash. And what if down the line the starting point switches? Or something else happens. Once you take the starting point argument away, you have to say that EVERY town needs a GM leader to be fair.
Scott Macleod wrote:Trollsbane is the center of the Island. Most NPC's are there. Most resources are there. Why all the chaos?
There is so much chaos because .... Trolls Bane is the center of the island with a lot of NPC's and resources
Then there are the simple problems that I brought up in other topics (I think):
1. Story - Something would have to be pulled completely out of the ass, that makes no sense, and everyone just needs to accept it. Only thing that would make any slight sense would be if someone invaded the island and ... only took TB and conveniently left everyone else alone?
2. A GM ruling with an iron fist wont work because we have so many towns now. As long as you can travel, you can be free of any such oppression and move somewhere else, and I'm sure some will leave if that happened.
The biggest problem is the deflated population of the town, and those that are there don't really care about it, and I don't see how this would do anything but further those sentiments. Personally Illarion would be a bore the past few months with a GM leader in comparison to what really has happened.
Ich persöhnlich finde die aktuelle Situation nicht so übel.
Es gibt die Bedrohung durch die Zwerge, kein Gesetz, das alles gibt guten Grundstoff für Rollenspiel.
Zum Anderen liegt der Grund für die ständige Chefsesselbesetzung daran,
dass immer nur ein Char an der Spitze steht und das Regieren für den entsprechenden Spieler einfach zu zeitaufwendig wird.
Ich persönlich bin gegen ein GM-regiertes Trolls Bane (die GM´s arbeiten sich schon so kaputt )
Irgendwann, die Frage ist nur wann, wird sich eine von mehreren Chars geführte Regierung herausbilden,
so dass der Freizeitverlust für den einzelnen po erträglich bleibt.
Thorwald wrote:Wofür einen GM einsetzen um eine Stadt zu regieren nur weil eine Ansammlung von Spielern zu blöd ist das selber hinzubekommen .
Es gibt genug Städte die das können , eigendlich alle außer Bane .
Na ja, TB kann man aber auch nicht direkt mit anderen Städten/Siedlungen vergleichen! Hätten andere Siedlungen den Spielerdurchlauf, die zentrale Lage oder schlicht die Bedeutung wie Bane, sähe es dort auch ganz schnell anders aus (man denke an Greenbriar).
Ich würde TB gar nicht mal als Stadt sehen . Das ist eine alte Ansammlung von Häusern um die eine Mauer gezogen wurde und die man leider für den Mittelpunkt des Spiels ansieht .
Tb ist nur bedeutend weil dort alle wichtigen Händler stehen , nimm die Händler und verteil sie auf die anderen Städte und schon ist TB leer und noch unbedeutender als jetzt schon und aller Ärger um den Fleck Land ist vorbei . Das Problem an TB ist , das dort leider alle Neuen ankommen und man es als Mittelpunkt im Spiel ansieht .
Laß die neuen an anderen Orten raukommen und schon ist TB wieder bedeutungslos .
Nun, für mich war Troll's Bane immer die Stadt der Menschen. Und ihre Geschichte ist ganz typisch für die Menschen. Die Herrscher kommen und gehen. Nichts ist wirklich von langer Dauer. Ich finde die Situation somit wirklich sehr passend. Nur den Boykott der Händler finde ich etwas nervig, zumal der eher neue Spieler "(be-)treffen" dürfte.
Viele liebe Grüße
----
Hello!
Well, for me Troll's Bane has always been the city of man. And its history is so typical for mankind. The rulers come and go. Nothing lasts for a longer period. Therefore I deem this situation quite fitting. Only the boycott is a little bit annoying, especially as it "hurts" new players more than the veterans among us.
Naturally, answering this question will be most controversial. Though, I will try to draw a picture of a Troll's Bane I think most of the players would be satisfied with.
- Troll's Bane should have a government which is available, present, cares for peoples needs, organises happenings (market days, several events), has a regular town meeting where everyone comes together, offers players the opportunity to be part of and/or to interact with the government. A government which gives the opportunity to build up own houses, a government which extends the town from time to time. A government which is not isolated, has (good and bad) relations to particular other nations. A government which is reliable. A government which rules for a longer time, so people get used to it and the whole system.
- Such a government should consists of several characters who are available. Naturally, there should be one (or two) persons who are the leaders of the town. Besides, there is the need for a strong leader of the town guard. The town guard itself should be well organised and consist of several strong characters and recruits who train to become town guards.
Furthermore, perhaps there is someone for diplomatic afairs only. Perhaps there is someone who is responsible for town extensions only.
So, players should know who the person of the government is, when he/she wants to do anything.
- To guarantee this system working, characters should have some benefits from being part of the government. Maybe in form of money, ressources, special rights, good reputation, own house, whatever.
- By having such an active government, people in town would feel that someone is watching over them. Someone is protecting them. Someone who cares for them. This government should build the framework for personal roleplay, but should not force everyone to suffer under all decisions the government does. At the same time, the government should have the power to heavily influence other character's roleplay if there is the strong need and reason.
How is it currently?
- At the moment - as everyone knows - there is no government at all. Bandits, robbers, murders, criminals, free persons, traders, farmers... ANYONE can walk in town around and can do what he/she wants. There are no laws. There is no one who can punish anyone.
- One might say: This is anarchy, great! It is the chaos after war. There are political fights between groups for becomign new governor. Great, this is the situation after an invasion from outside.
Though, I do say: Wrong! There is no atmosphere at all in town. People just do not care for anything. There are no political conflicts, no political discussions going on in game. There is no group which really uses the situation to make organised trouble. There is no one who tries to get power by actions and by getting the good will of the citizens.
Basically, what we currently have is a dubious living with each other in a town with no face.
Why is that so?
- There are only a very few people who really care what is happening in a political way in Troll's Bane. Those who do are not very active IG to change anything on the situation. Even the candidates for the new governor are close to absent IG as well as absent in the forums. There hardly was any promotions for candidates in game. There hardly is anyone who can stand all those robbers. Some of the 'criminals' who are in town are some of the most strongest characters IG. There hardly is anyone who can face them.
Short: There is no one who really spends time to change the situation. Everyone is waiting - I do not really know for what and why! Some personal RP is indeed taking place sometimes in Troll's Bane. Though, this RP is not connected in any way to the overall political situation IG.
How was it under Silas?
- Silas' government was the product of a short-sighted invasion to Troll's Bane by a group of people who just had the motivation to make the current government fall without thinking how to continue afterwards. After the town was conquered and the conquerors had no access to the taxes, Silas was left alone by the dozen of characters who have helped to conquer the town.
What can a self-proclaimed governor do without having any army in a town in which he is not wanted?
Either flee. Or try to get the trust of the citizens. He fled in the end, even before the rebellion was able to react to the roleplay of the invaders. Understandable. But a pitty for IG atmosphere and motivation of other players to continue.
So, the conquering was too quickly planned, maybe enjoyable due to have an (unbalanced) war. But the atmosphere dropped dramatically after the town was conquered. A governor left alone by his army. Strange.
Why?
The conquerors did not think about what would happen after they would have conquered the town. The invasion came nearly out of nowhere. Citizens were surprised. There was no real climax at all in the whole roleplay. Just a peak - then silence.
How was it under Siltaris?
Siltaris lead the town for nearly 9 RL months. She has built up herself a good reputation as captain of the town guard before she was elected by 12 out of 13 votes to the governor of Troll's Bane. She set up new and detailed laws. A detailed town board which was up to date for over half a year. She had a strong town guard captain and a strong magistrate at her side when she became governor. Short: It was a long-planned taking over of the leadership of that town.
At the beginning of her regency she pushed the most important criminals back with the help of Callith and Samantha. She continuously renewed and extended contracts to Silverbrand and the Grey Rose over all her time of regency. She made it possible for all people who asked to build up a house in/close to Troll's Bane. She made it possible (after discussion with the staff) that there is an income for the town by taxing the merchants. She extended the jail. She rebuilt the Seahorse after her Magistrate has left. She rebuilt the market place. She had plans for some secret building projects. Her Captain left. She was setting up a crafter guild of Troll's Bane. She had build up an armory. She had built up a large stock of food. She was always available by dove. She was always present in the forum. When she was IG, she was often busy with various claims of all sort of characters. In the end, she was nearly left alone at the top of government. There was no town guard any more. There was no magistrate any more.
From my point of view, I think that the times under Siltaris were maybe not the best ones. But: People knew that someone was ruling that town. They knew that there is someone who they can speak to. Nearly any request (via dove) was answered. In the forums, there were lively discussions with the government. Regular information about the progress of the town. There were some (political) affairs the government had to manage (Seer, incidents on ground of tavern). Other nations (like Silverbrand and Grey Rose) knew that there is a leader who is reliable.
What Troll's Bane under Siltaris could not offer: present town guard, regular citizen meetings, market day. She was not IG that much, perhaps too less.
Well, I guess that one of the most dramatic faults I have done was that I did not communicate what Siltaris was doing ig. Most of what she did has not been made public. All discussions with various persons and in diplomacy. All those preparings for the builing projects. All those preparings for trying to set up working structures (crafters-guild, town guard) which were done behind the scenes.
(So, I guess that I made the same mistake the staff has done in past and still is doing: Nobody exactly knows what they are really working on.)
Why?
The time I have spent into Siltaris and the government was high. Preparations took a long time. Diplomacy takes long time. Dealing with all requests of various characters takes time. When you have someone who stand at your side you can rely on (Captain, Magistrate etc.) it is half work. PO Samantha and myself have set up the laws together. Though, when I was left alone over time and had to manage all by myself, it was too much for me.
I have tried to make town guard attractive by giving payment for guards - little response. And those who came did not stay and kept on play their role. There were a few who did so - and I really thank them for that - though, in the end even they left... or they were criminals.
I understand that: The Captain never was that active as I hoped he would be. So, it makes little fun to play a guard left alone.
I have looked for characters who would fit into the government to support. I have found no one. Either out of IG-reasons (bad guys) or out of ooc-reasons (too inactive). Thus I tried to keep on doing the job as good as I could.
However, my time is limited. Naturally. Governing alone makes you tired over time.
Nevertheless I think that under Siltaris I actually have offered that kind of framework I spoke about in the beginning of this posting. There was someone on top who lead the town. And this person was available if needed. This person was active and slowly but steadily extended the town. This person had many diplomatic discussions and good relations to other nations.
Though it never is possible to push back crime completely in town. But I think that under Siltaris there were long times of stable and quite safe living in town while you can rely on the leader.
Needless to say: This is my point of view. Others might have had another impression.
What are the main reasons for missing the desired situation in Troll's Bane?
As it was stated a few times before. The most important lack was and still is:
There are no players around who are able to lead a town or to be part of a government/town guard. Most of the players do not care for the town. Most of the players do not want to limit their roleplay by being part of anyt guild or town. Most players do not want to be loyal to someone. Most players do want to spend their limited time in serving a guild/town.
Those players who are different: Either they already are leading a town/guild. Ot they have a char who is hardly fitting to a guild/town.
Consequently, towns are only lead by a very few people.
How to fix it?
Either there must be less guilds/town, so that the few players who are willing and able to govern a town work together. Or/and the playerbase of Illarion has to change.
This is not likely to happen. So, is GM-lead town the solution?
It is diffuclt to answer, since no one knows what this exactly means. If it would be a player with GM abilities - well, why not? If it is just a fictive king of the town who does nothing... I am not sure. Would depend on the actual (player-)leader.
If it is a GM who does nothing at all but prevents people from gaining control over the town, that would stop any interaction with the government, so I do not like the idea.
However, since I know that it is loads of work to set up a working government and to keep that government working, and regarding my impression that the current candidates for the government in TB hardly do have the time to do so (due to their little IG-time and little forum activity), as well as due to the fact that there still is the same playerbase - which is not willing/able to be part of a town/guild - any new government will fail for sure!
So, let us try something new. We will see how it works.
lol. Aint you a soothsayer?
But yes, I do agree that it is time to try out something different. Vote for Cromwell!
I've optimistically begun to draft a set of "laws". Here is a sneak-peek preview on part of it.
Outsiders
Are either individuals from nations which for some reason do not wish to stay in friendly terms with the town, individuals of neutral towns who do not have Resident rights for one reason or another, or individual adventurers unwilling to claim any allegiance or loyalty to the town. If there is a dispute between a Resident or a Citizen against an Outsider and evidence is found lacking, the Guard or Judges shall always decide in favour of the two contributing classes. Outsiders are forced to pay a landtax, should they own anything within the lands of Trollsbane. Their property is not protected under the law (with the exception of buildings owned by individuals who pay the landtax). Failure to pay the landtax on time gives the Administration the right to confiscate the entire property of the individual. Any crime committed or disturbance caused by an Outsider will be punished more severely than others. The outsiders have no right to complain about any decisions made by the Law-enforcing forces of the Administration.
The Outsiders may be protected by the Guard in the case of (if there are guards available):
Arson (special)
Attempted murder
Murder
However, they have no right to expect any protection.
The point here is, that the guard is not expected to "protect and serve" everyone. It also opens up much more options for bribery, "dishonest" guards and whatever. No longer a guard has to be nice to everyone and be the shining beacon of virtue. In some cases he can abuse people, tell the "unworthy" victims to get lost without risking any punishment for his part. The joy! Let us diversify the guard!
Last edited by Mr. Cromwell on Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Thorwald wrote:Ich würde TB gar nicht mal als Stadt sehen . Das ist eine alte Ansammlung von Häusern um die eine Mauer gezogen wurde und die man leider für den Mittelpunkt des Spiels ansieht .
Tb ist nur bedeutend weil dort alle wichtigen Händler stehen , nimm die Händler und verteil sie auf die anderen Städte und schon ist TB leer und noch unbedeutender als jetzt schon
Leider zu kurz gedacht. Schlagwort: Briar-Phänomen
Thorwald wrote:Ich würde TB gar nicht mal als Stadt sehen . Das ist eine alte Ansammlung von Häusern um die eine Mauer gezogen wurde und die man leider für den Mittelpunkt des Spiels ansieht .
Tb ist nur bedeutend weil dort alle wichtigen Händler stehen , nimm die Händler und verteil sie auf die anderen Städte und schon ist TB leer und noch unbedeutender als jetzt schon
Leider zu kurz gedacht. Schlagwort: Briar-Phänomen
Exakt. Noch dazu kommt, dass ihr in SB nur deshalb keine Probleme habt weil a) die Stadt bis zum geht nicht mehr abgeschottet ist und b) die Zwerge vom Rassenhintergrund her loyal zu ihrem König stehen, der auf Lebzeiten eingesetzt wird.
Mr. Cromwell wrote:[...] The point here is, that the guard is not expected to "protect and serve" everyone. It also opens up much more options for bribery, "dishonest" guards and whatever. No longer a guard has to be nice to everyone and be the shining beacon of virtue. In some cases he can abuse people, tell the "unworthy" victims to get lost without risking any punishment for his part. The joy! Let us diversify the guard!
Cromwell, the core of your idea is nice, although I have to ask you to read Siltaris' whole posting again and not only the last paragraphs.
Because: Of which guards are you talking from? Will you hire players for real money to be your IG town guards?
PS: Full agreement with Siltaris and Taeryon.
Last edited by Miklorius on Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Taeryon Silverlight wrote:
Exakt. Noch dazu kommt, dass ihr in SB nur deshalb keine Probleme habt weil a) die Stadt bis zum geht nicht mehr abgeschottet ist und b) die Zwerge vom Rassenhintergrund her loyal zu ihrem König stehen, der auf Lebzeiten eingesetzt wird.
Einige der SB-Zwerge sind in der Tat ein sehr gutes Vorbild für eine gute Stadt.
Gleichzeitig kann keine andere Stadt so attraktive Ressourcen anbieten wie SB.
Ebenso bleibt man als Zwerg so oder so in SB eher unter sich. Durchlaufverkehr gibt es da nicht.
Wie dem auch sei. Das Briar-Phänomen bleibt. Und das würde auch in SB gelten.
Maximilian wrote:Ihr könnt sagen was ihr wollt aber Silberbrand funktoniert Trolls Bane nicht. ergo: Silberbrand ist besser.
That is simplifying matters. Trollsbane is the bad neighbourhood public school and Silverbrand is the Exclusive Ivy-League Skulls & Bones School. It can pick and choose. Trollsbane cannot do that.
It is not inherently better, but due to circumstances and policies, it has much better cards to play with than TB. You cannot just entirely overlook everything that is going around.
Basically, the problem which silverbrand doesn't suffer from is that in TB, more than half of the stuff is owned by someone else than TB-government. And that complicates things a lot.
Thorwald wrote:Ich würde TB gar nicht mal als Stadt sehen . Das ist eine alte Ansammlung von Häusern um die eine Mauer gezogen wurde und die man leider für den Mittelpunkt des Spiels ansieht .
Tb ist nur bedeutend weil dort alle wichtigen Händler stehen , nimm die Händler und verteil sie auf die anderen Städte und schon ist TB leer und noch unbedeutender als jetzt schon
Leider zu kurz gedacht. Schlagwort: Briar-Phänomen
Exakt. Noch dazu kommt, dass ihr in SB nur deshalb keine Probleme habt weil a) die Stadt bis zum geht nicht mehr abgeschottet ist und b) die Zwerge vom Rassenhintergrund her loyal zu ihrem König stehen, der auf Lebzeiten eingesetzt wird.
Nun, auch Greenbriar hätte die Gelegenheit gehabt sich abzuschotten, aber man (ich will jetzt keine Namen nennen) hat es vorgezogen, jedem, der auch nur gefragt hat, die Bürgerrechte zu geben. Und so wurde aus dem schönen Halblingdorf...nun, der Rest dürfte jedem bekannt sein.
Und das die Zwerge zu ihrem König stehen, naja, auch bei den Zwergen hat es schon einige Wechsel der Krone gegeben, wie jeder nachlesen kann. Natürlich ist es ein Vorteil, wenn man sich gegen die Außenwelt abschotten kann, aber es schützt in keinster Weise gegen innere Kämpfe. Die Frage ist nun, warum gibt es die nicht? Nun, weil jeder Zwergenspieler weiß, daß diese Krone verdammt schwer ist... Und hier liegt genau der Hund begraben, wie Siltaris richtig geschrieben hat. Aber glaubt nicht, daß Silberbrand keine Probleme hätte. Denn das Abschotten hat auch seine negativen Seiten.
Viele liebe Grüße
Last edited by Magdha Tiefenerz on Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
The conquerors did not think about what would happen after they would have conquered the town. The invasion came nearly out of nowhere. Citizens were surprised. There was no real climax at all in the whole roleplay. Just a peak - then silence.
...
It was your fault that Caelum had to invade. If Siltaris hadn't attacked Dom for no reason, apart from he had just come out of the teleporter and said "It's a nice day" AND used the fact that the server had crashed to bring in reinforcements, no army would have attacked. We were going to wait until Siltaris had won the election, but since it became kill or get killed, the "kill" option was chosen, and since there were witnesses Caelum was forced into an attack too early.
I like the idea to rule TB by GM's interim to bring stability into the town. Another point is, that a GM controlled character would earn more respect and would be better accepted.
Another possibility would be to give the new governeur of TB the skill to immediately throw criminals into the jailhose to enforce their force.
(e.g. !jail bad_man 5 days).
Also I like Korms very good idea of a NPC town guard.
But in my opinion the main point in Illarion is, that there is no long running storyline which is accepted and played by all players. In a game like that it is important that this storyline is stable and only changes slowly, to give every player the chance (think of those who can not play daily) to take their part. Maybe this would be a part we all should work on.
The chars would interact with the GM leader in an other way beacsue it's a GM char. This would be OOC-IG mixing.
right.
but it would have the desired effect.
normally the chars should show some respect to a gouverner.
just, because he is mighty.
but our players do not let their chars show respect.
(because being respectless has no consequences)
