Language Marking

Fianna Heneghan · Post by **Fianna Heneghan** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:08 am

Calenleia wrote:I just can't understand the posts in the forum and I hope someone will translate, also I don't get the main point of it... thats frustrating and so, the main english written Threads I will not read... thats the fact.
I can understand Miru, who tried hours and hours translating... it is frustrating...

I have exactly this problem. Especially frustrating is finding after spending a lot of time translating, it wasn't even interesting.

Rosendil · Post by **Rosendil** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 7:48 am

I dont like a language indicator in game, but maybe a language indicator on the player list of the illarion homepage would be helpfull...

Rosendil · Post by **Rosendil** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 8:16 am

Some words to the previous postings:

- patience is a very important aspect, not only in the english - german communication, also in the german - german or english - english communication; although it is put to the touch sometimes ...
So ... Always be patient!

- there is still a problem with the german only community ... they are a small part of the community but are'nt supported well. All quests are done in english. Most posts are english only ...

- the stuff needs to make a decision: (1) support two languages, (2) support english only (3) support german only. I think decision (1) would be the best. Also, decision (1) is already implemented in the game, but the "german/english" support is missing in the forums. For this reason I think there are some translators needed, who translate all posts written in one language only into the other language.

Possible solution: Add a "translator" role to the forum and add this role to accounts (moderators and/or players), who like to do this job. They would have the possibility to edit the posts and add an appropriate translation.

James Scott · Post by **James Scott** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:03 am

Well this is just my view.

If I saw that only 1 person online spoke english, I wouldn't log in. So there is still only one on. The next person comes along and sees there in noone online, so he doesn't logon either.

This happens 20 times, because noone wants to be alone, but if we had all logged on because we didn't know, there would be 21 english speakers on.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:08 am

@ James: Instead you log on, spend 15 minutes looking for ONE english-speaking person who could be ANYWHERE (powergaming, hunting pigs, in another town?) then you get frustrated and log out.

Then you don't log in again until ages, because no-one likes spendign 15 minutes doing nothing.

Pellandria · Post by **Pellandria** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 11:46 am

Rosendil, a translator role, you know how much work this would be it would simply "crush" one person and then how much and what you want to translate, just translate "important" Things inside the Proposal board, which I did last time in one thread it was a hell of work and it seems noone cared about the topic after, this really throws your motivation down and yes I think the problem is there..the staff wants to push the game into english, while the only german player, I add those who barely can speak english aswell, just need to search fun of their own..and something I don't understand.. all german player are "forced" to learn english, why won't the english player beginn to learn some german then, I mean it only would be fair if you bitch about the language barrier.. learn some german and I think noone will say "Oh you're german is terrible, please go away" its more like people will then try to rp with you, maybe even try to rp in english around you, while the english player trys to rp in german, maybe we need sme changes in the community not the game here.

Post by **Nitram** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:31 pm

English is teached in school at all german speaking countries.

German is NOT teached in school in every english speaking country.

English is teached as well in many many other countries.

So english is the language the most are able to understand due their school education. And this way its the most used language in Illarion.

But Illarion in general will allways support english as well as german. But its difficult since the most who write english are not able to write in german. And ever those who are able to write german and english will write english in case it has to go fast and they want the most of the members of the community understanding the stuff they write.

Pellandria · Post by **Pellandria** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 12:56 pm

The schoolenglish is pretty useless, normally you have to teach yourself more, to have atleast usefull words, because noone cares here if I use if clauses or can use every possible time, I guess everyone who wants to learn german can do it untill some degree, I don't want them to writte a book in german, but some could atleast try, as I currently see it just a few nongerman player try to speak german, everyone else is "Oh we have so less german-english speaker", I could bitch aroudn and say "Why we have so much english only player", I know that english is the second most spoken language on the world, but this doesn't meant that everyone can rest on this state, its still an german game.

abcfantasy · Post by **abcfantasy** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:04 pm

Starting a language at school is a big step though. Learning a new language without any school teaching is much harder.

If I chose german as the optional subject back in my seconday school, I'm sure I would give it a try to improve and understand/talk to others.

Post by **Jupiter** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 1:10 pm

Pellandria wrote:The schoolenglish is pretty useless

Sorry... I think you was visiting a preety bad school.
I think the schoolsenglish is preety useful, at least at our school.

Pellandria wrote:I guess everyone who wants to learn german can do it untill some degree

Wrong. German is one of the most difficult languages, when you try to learn it.

Pellandria wrote: its still an german game.

Ermm.... what is a german game?
I would say a german game is a game, which is just in german. But Illarion is in english and german, so its a bilingual game.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:08 pm

Minor mistakes do NOT matter. Your grammar can go to pieces and stuff, but as long as its understandable its ALLRIGHT.

"I speak to XXXX yesterday and he say 2 silver cost of leather armor"

Yes, its bad grammar but we can all understand it.

I'm trying to seperate the TOTALLY NONENGLISH speakers with the TOTALLY NONGERMAN, they're already useless to each other right now.

pharse · Post by **pharse** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:55 pm

I think it´s quite off topic...

let´s say a language percentage on the online list would be implemented. Now there are only German speaking players on. What about the following function: every player with a game account is able to send the information, that s/he is ready to play. So the online list would also show how many people have sent that in the last 15min.

Thus if one English speaking player sees, that there are 10 others who are ready to play, s/he would surely log in. Dont´know if this would be handy, just an idea.

Pellandria · Post by **Pellandria** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:23 pm

Jupiter wrote: Sorry... I think you was visiting a preety bad school.
I think the schoolsenglish is preety useful, at least at our school.

I learned more english from playing games and reading, then in school, our school mostly focused on grammar and timeforms, I qas, qith only one exception, the only one in my class who could fluently speak english at all, all the rest..well.. better don't listen to them, sure grammar and timeforms could be usefull if you ctually try to search some kind of job or something in english, but all this knowledge is useless without enough words to use.

Wrong. German is one of the most difficult languages, when you try to learn it.

As I said I don't want a written book from them, just a few things.. so that you can do "normal" rp atleast, you can teach yourself till some degree self, if you really want, heck I played some english games in my youth, while I had no idea what they talked about, but I tried to learn it and finally understood more and more, maybe its because I had this nice english learning book aswell, but well I guess the older the players get the harder it will be to learn it, so better start now, we could also have some kind of topic where we give a few basic german phrase or such things.

Ermm.... what is a german game?

Its a game developed by german game developers, so its a "german" game, just like Paraworld is a german game aswell, even if the game is translated into many other languages.

Pharse idea don't seems that bad, I kinda like it, so people won't be cought in this devilcircel ->no english player-> won't log in-> still no english player-> noone will join at all.

Post by **Jupiter** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:02 pm

Pellandria wrote:
Ermm.... what is a german game?
Its a game developed by german game developers, so its a "german" game, just like Paraworld is a german game aswell, even if the game is translated into many other languages.

So that just means it is a game which is developed by germans. If a game is english or german depends on the language in which the game is available.

And after reading the other two points I understand you so: ( or it sound at leat so )
You really think the english player should learn german? Do you really think this?
You speak just english because you learned it at schoo, yes yes I know, your school was bad at this, but you learned there the basics at least, with the help of a teacher. Yes, you improved it by yourself, but you learned it a school.
And german is, like I already said, very hard to learn, because it has a lot of cramatical crap. For exampel: Ich bin spazieren gegangen. Ich habe ein Eis gegessen.
There is no logical reason why it means "'bin' spazieren gegangen" and "'habe' Eis gegessen" You need a lot of experience to get a feeling for this, but you need this feeling nearly everytime you speak or write german.
And it is stupid to learn such a learing-unfriendly language for a game.
And well, they could use the german for other things too..but for what?!
I think our english speaking friends here have a lot better things to do.

But i think this has nothing much to do with the topic. So this were my last words in this topic

Gryphius · Post by **Gryphius** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:00 pm

You all have a point there, but fact is, that for a german player - the longer the session lasts - it grows more and more demanding to express oneself adequadely in english. You simply can't express yourself in a language you acquired by learning as fluently as in your native language, what at times does serious harm to the overall RP-quality. I myself am no exception: Since i play a bard, i have paticularly great demands on my language skills, but only rarely i manage to measure up to them when playing english - my english songs are second rate...at best. That tends to leave behind a feeling of dissatisfaction, if you know you're better, but simply can't show it, due to language barriers.
Similar phenomenon with bilingual postings: It is not only skill-demanding to do translations, but also more time-consuming than one might think: Since on the Varshikar-board both languages are demanded (See what i mean: Click), it sometimes takes me an hour to add one single, bilingual announcement - more than twice as much time as if i wrote german only. It is even worse when you participate in a public discussion: Since our community is more of the communicative type (way too much work for one translator - on this board, you'd be in need for five, minimum), you can easily lose the thread if you suddenly face five postings responding to yours, all requiring an according reply. So i fully understand all those who simply say to themselves "Forget it..." and stick to german only.

I presume it's a completely natural state in a bilingual environment, and i don't believe in a technical solution - all sides have their individual shortcomings: The english-only speakers that they sometimes meet sections which they don't understand, the bilingual speakers that they are expected to make their point clear in both languages, and the german-only speakers that they feel more and more left behind if the discussion (as now) is being held in english only. So to all english-only speakers: Please put into consideration that we have our limits. We try to make it as appealing as possible to everyone, but don't get upset if we fail once in a while.

-----

An all euren Meinungen ist was dran, aber Tatsache ist, dass für einen deutschen Spieler - je länger die Session dauert - es immer fordernder und fordernder wird, sich angemessen in Englisch auszudrücken. Man kann sich einfach nicht in einer Sprache, die man sich durch Lernen angeeignet hat, so vielseitig wie in seiner Muttersprache ausdrücken, was hin und wieder der Qualität des Rollenspiels großen Schaden zufügt. Ich selbst bin keine Ausnahme: Da ich einen Barden spiele, habe ich besonders große Anforderungen an meine Sprache, aber nur selten schaffe ich es, sie zu erfüllen wenn ich englisch spiele - meine englischen Lieder sind bestenfalls zweitklassig. Das neigt dazu, ein Gefühl der Unzifriedenheit zu hinterlassen, wenn man weiß, dass man besser ist, es aber nicht zeigen kann aufgrund der Sprachbarrieren.
Ähnliches Phänomen mit bilingualen Postings: Es erfordert nicht nur Können, Übersetzungen anzufertigen, sondern auch mehr Zeit, als man glauben mag: Da auf dem Varshikar-board beide Sprachen gefordert werden (Seht, was ich meine: Klick), braucht es manchmal eine Stunde, bis ich eine einzige bilinguale Kundgabe veröffentlicht habe - mehr als zweimal soviel als wenn ich nur in Deutsch schreiben würde. Es ist sogar noch schlimmer, wenn man an einer öffentlichen Diskussion teilnimmt: Da unsere Community eher auf der mitteilsameren Seite ist (viel zu viel Arbeit für einen Übersetzer - auf diesem Board wären mindestens fünf vonnöten), kann man schnell den Faden verlieren, wenn man sich plötzlich fünf Postings gegenübersieht, die sich alle auf deines beziehen, und alle eine passende Antwort erfordern. Ich verstehe also alle, die dann einfach zu sich sagen "Vergiss es...", und dann allein bei deutsch bleiben.

Ich nehme an, dass es ein völlg natürlicher Zustand in einer zweisprachigen Umgebung ist, und ich glaube nicht an eine technische Lösung - alle Seiten haben individuelle Nachteile: Die allein englisch Sprechenden haben diesen, dass sie dann und wann auf Abschnitte stoßen, die sie nicht verstehen. Die zweisprachigen Mitglieder, dass von ihnen erwartet wird, dass sie sich in beiden Sprachen verständlich ausdrücken. Und die allein deutsch Sprechenden, dass sie sich mehr und mehr zurückgelassen fühlen, wenn die Diskussion nur in englisch gehalten wird. Also, an alle, die allein englisch sprechen: Bitte bedenkt, dass auch wir unsere Grenzen haben. Wir versuchen es für alle so ansprechend wie möglich zu machen, aber werdet nicht sauer, wenn wir es dann und wann nicht schaffen.

Kevin Lightdot · Post by **Kevin Lightdot** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 6:29 pm

I really don't see how this stuff would be so important... I mean.. okay.. someone ignores me.. I walk on and find someone else and do it again... it gets disturbing to meet chars that don't speak your language constantly, a flag doesn't really solve that, I don't see too much reason for it all in all.. and then, and I still think it'd have the wrong effect at many times if this was implemented. *shrug*

Fianna Heneghan · Post by **Fianna Heneghan** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:48 pm

I don't think marking players according to language will be helpful in the long run. Some people speak both languages to greater or lesser degrees, but like Calenleia said, after working hard all day who wants the mental struggle of trying to communicate in a foreign language? Not everyone. It should be a personal choice which players and which language bi-lingual POs play with. It's easy enough to find out in game who speaks which language and to remember that for yourself.

It is frustrating trying to read the german posts, especially questions being answered as those might be helpful to me, as well. It would be nice to be able to understand those posts better, but I have always seen that as my problem. Translating is a lot of work for me. I couldn't see asking someone to translate everything. That said, it is nice to see the staff writing in both languages when they post. Even if I don't get the full story, at least that way I get half of it. That is very helpful. I'm sure
the german speakers would agree.

Shenandrea · Post by **Shenandrea** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:15 am

Fianna i agree, that sometime it is hard for someone to get the answer of a question if it is written in the other language. but also i want to say that most of the german players that speek both languages try to translate everything here. but most of the english speakers doesn't even try it. i have many PO's i play with and i play both languages, but i also have to translate some questions or proposals of others with the online-translator.
i think it's a good idea to 'mark' someone that he/she can speak both languages even if it's not so good.

~Shen