Illarion.org

But at the end of the day, it is still a rule, and the rules are what makes illarion such a great game. If you start to question this rule, why not question another rule? And another? And another? Until eventually it becomes another runescape.
And also it is the staff's game. They put in hours an hours to maintain and improve it; they should decide what happens to it.

Skaalib Drurr wrote:But at the end of the day, it is still a rule, and the rules are what makes illarion such a great game. If you start to question this rule, why not question another rule? And another? And another? Until eventually it becomes another runescape.
And also it is the staff's game. They put in hours an hours to maintain and improve it; they should decide what happens to it.

I *knew* that this was going to come up soon.

Well, Skaalib allow me to explain my intention.

Despite the gamemasters being pityful, humorless, powerhungry, sniveling little creatures ( ) by default, they are usually very receptive towards constructive criticism. (My personal experience anyway)

You make it sound like I was somehow in the position to somehow force my way through, when I clearly am not. Obviously, they call the shots in the end, but that does not prevent us from trying to influence those decisions according to our own ideas and opinions, as all of us are trying to do here.

What I find to be more 'dangerous' than questioning the decisions of the powers that be is blind acceptance of their decision.

As I have said before, the gamemasters are mortals just like every one of us. They too make errors in their judgement and decisions, and if no-one is going to point out the potential mistakes in their plans, it will surely result in a lot of wasted effort and mistakes later on.

If you actually took some time and bothered to read my posts instead of simply going all defensive (for what reason anyway?), you would see that I do not advocate turning this game into runescape. I haven't even been arguing with the gamemasters for a while now, just with you "ban all ooc people". I am simply advocating a more lenient policy than you -> If it bothers no-one, then use the time to punish for it on something else altogether.

The little tyme i spent ingame, i noticed that there's a lot of OOCing going on... which is becoming a problem IMHO...

We DO need Gms to rip the heads of people who do it, in order to show an example, they can go all lenient later, but public execution is the key to making people shut up and obey,,

I really don't call that defensive. I would say being defencive is making a counter-arguement to each of your points (like I am doing now ), and trying to rip them to shreds. And I have never said "ban all OOC'ers", nor have I said "you want to turn the game into runescape". I just think letting 1 rule go lax, and leaving it, will just start a slippery slope, down to where all of the rules are questioned, and this example used as a precedent.
And I also think you are being terribly general when you say "It bothers no-one". What you really mean to say is "it doesn't bother me". Obviously it bothers some people, like nitram for example who says he has to trawl through all the crap. And I really don't want this to degenerate into a slagging match, so I will say no more.

Skaalib Drurr wrote:I really don't call that defensive. I would say being defencive is making a counter-arguement to each of your points (like I am doing now ), and trying to rip them to shreds. And I have never said "ban all OOC'ers", nor have I said "you want to turn the game into runescape". I just think letting 1 rule go lax, and leaving it, will just start a slippery slope, down to where all of the rules are questioned, and this example used as a precedent.
And I also think you are being terribly general when you say "It bothers no-one". What you really mean to say is "it doesn't bother me". Obviously it bothers some people, like nitram for example who says he has to trawl through all the crap. And I really don't want this to degenerate into a slagging match, so I will say no more.

Coward.

By "It bothers no-one" I mean, that it fact that they are talking OOC does not disturb anyone elses' roleplay.

What bad could merely questioning the rules cause? If you can't defend the rules with logic, then maybe they are not good rules? We aren't exactly talking about moses and the ten commandments here.
Besides, as the gamemasters are the ones with the ability to change the rules, questioning them is merely hot air unless they actually choose to take heed. Nothing else.

Damien wrote:The same counts for, if two characters have been involved in a conflict (sometimes during an event), and one gets killed and returns with loud nonsense OOC : "You did not emote your attacks enough else i wouldnt have died" etc.
If i stumble across such actions again, the concerning person will be removed quite istantly too.

Nitram wrote:If a thief trys to rob someone and this one doesn't respond instandly and the thief starts an ooc discussion how lame this is, then i know there IS a ooc problem.

This happend, in different situations, many times lately. And something like this distroys the roleplay situation.

I didn't mean those things are things to ignore, but the occasinal lol in the middle of a quest can be ignored. If people are doing that they really aren't mature enough to be playing Illarion.

Just to clairify - I hate the random OOC in game when I can hear it. I also do not talk OOC when I know others that are role playing can hear me. I just woulden't want any person I like to role play with to get banned because he was talking in the corner of the map.

Assertion by example is a formal logical fallacy...

In English?

Nalzaxx wrote:In English?

It irritates people because it irritates XXXX

OR

It doesn't irritate people because it doesn't irritate XXXX

is illogical....

Skaalib Drurr wrote:But at the end of the day, it is still a rule, and the rules are what makes illarion such a great game. If you start to question this rule, why not question another rule? And another? And another? Until eventually it becomes another runescape.
And also it is the staff's game. They put in hours an hours to maintain and improve it; they should decide what happens to it.

It's gonna turn into RS reguardless. It's already become a noob playground...

Hadrian_Abela wrote:

Nalzaxx wrote:In English?

It irritates people because it irritates XXXX

OR

It doesn't irritate people because it doesn't irritate XXXX

is illogical....

Ah I get you. Thanks for the explaination.

Ah, but aren't you commiting the informal straw man fallacy by claiming his argument states that, "It doesn't irritate people because it doesn't irritate XXXX," and then defeating that argument by labelling it a formal fallacy?

Seems to me like he's making the argument that, "Most people aren't disrupted, so it isn't a huge issue." Which seems perfectly legitmate as an argument, regardless of how true the premise is.

EDIT: Oh, nevermind, you're right. It does seem like he was saying, "It doesn't bother me, so it doesn't bother anyone."

Well, it's true, we GMs have our flaws and are only human.
But if we would have to discuss every of our decisions, we would do nothing else anymore, because some players misuse discussing, and excessively misuse it ingame too just when things go different than they want. If there must be a discussion, feel free to start one on the boards, but stay friendy and do not expect that your opinion is the true one, and also don't forget that the GMs usually see more stuff than you do.
Therefor, and because it is disturbing, EVERYONE starting any OOC discussion INGAME, will be banned quickly and without many warnings.
If you think that a GM misuses his powers, report him to gm-abuse, it is being checked and worked over by a trustworthy and neutral acting person who is NOT a GM himself.
Hard punishments are only being taken in hard cases usually, and the staff usually decides those together, if the thing is not too obvious.

You can be also sure that, for example, players behaving immature, cussing/insulting other people OOC, for example saying things like "((xxxxing GMs))" or likewise, will get themselves banned quite permanently. A certain maturity is necessary for roleplaying together, and that's our overall goal : To roleplay and to have fun doing so.
Altogether.
GMs have to serve the community, not single players. And that may sometimes require actions which some players who don't get this difference, complain about hehe...

So you see : A certain consequent behaviour and some authority are necessary, else we end up in chaos and noone can really roleplay.

Damien wrote:Well, it's true, we GMs have our flaws and are only human.
But if we would have to discuss every of our decisions, we would do nothing else anymore, because some players misuse discussing, and excessively misuse it ingame too just when things go different than they want. If there must be a discussion, feel free to start one on the boards, but stay friendy and do not expect that your opinion is the true one, and also don't forget that the GMs usually see more stuff than you do.

If you disagree with me, you are wrong. If you disagree with the previous statement, please feel free to read it again .

Ha-ha-haa.
That's the philosophy in all discussion.

So if you don't want us to OOC at all, what are we supposed to do about noobs? Most of the OOC conversations I see, and the ones I admitedly tend to get in, are all over noobs with to many questions or don't know how to play.

I understand that you are trying to restore rp to the community. But how are we to do it if noobs are running around the place asking OOC questions, IC? Sure we can do a quick, 'read the manual, F1' and hope not to get banned for it, but sometimes they still don't understand. Sometimes we have to go into detail with them and get them started with the idea of rping.

I don't want to go against the GMs. After all, they hold my characters fate in the balance. I just worry that if we go all crazy about ever last bit of OOC, we will end up with more players banned than we will have in the game on a weekend. I would hate to see this happen, and I am sure that many players would hate this too.

Quinasa wrote:Secondly: just because its most of the OOC you see doesn't mean its most of the OOC period. Even I was surprised at the amount of OOC that goes on that has nothing to do with new players.

May I ask, where did you 'see' what was the largest amount of OOC in the game? Not by first hand observations ingame, I think..?
Which leads me back to the question, who is actually bothered by it for any other reason than *knowing that is is there*? If that is the only motivation behind this.. Then.. Damn.

They aren't going overboard, they're enforcing rules that were already there. If you don't use OOC unless absolutely necessary then it doesn't apply to you and don't worry about it.

Well, there also exists a rule forbidding playerkilling. However, the standard practice is not (AFAIK) to immediatly ban everyone whose character is guilty of killing another character (because the validity of the RP reason could ALWAYS be questioned if there was desire for that..), but rather is focused on dealing with those characters that violate the spirit of the rule, cause actual trouble with their behaviour and are a source of complaints.

I'm not inclined to believe that applying the most draconian measures when dealing with simple, nondisturbing-OOC would have any positive outcome with the general athmosphere of the community in mind. Hell, I don't really understand why you would consider that either..

I'm disturbed by OOC and I tend not to answer obvious questions or comments

Just accept it, cromwell, this is leading nowhere.

WickedEwok wrote:I'm disturbed by OOC and I tend not to answer obvious questions or comments

Just accept it, cromwell, this is leading nowhere.

You are disturbed by something you cannot notice?
In that case, you can blame your own attitude for this "leading nowhere".

hier war kein neuer beteiligt. - no newby was involved.

Someone (): Grüße
Tjalf Kormson: greetings - meinen gruss
Someone (): Ich bin xxxxxx, und ihr?
...........
Tjalf Kormson ein grosser Barbar, mit Lederruestung, leicht hinkend, hat eine axt geschultert
Tjalf Kormson: ich bin nur ein farmer
w:xxxxxxx: (( Schreib mir mal zurück du Farmer ))
xxxxxxxx: Ein Farmer ohne Namen?
Tjalf Kormson: so, jetzt hab ich zeit
Tjalf Kormson: ich bin tjalf kormson von nordmark
xxxxxxxxx nickt
w:xxxxxxxxxx: (( Schreib mir mal ne Antwort im Illa Forum! ))

und ich fand das ooc ueberfluessig. - i found the ooc not necessary.

i do understand, why they want tu cut ooc back - period.

Mr. Cromwell wrote:

WickedEwok wrote:I'm disturbed by OOC and I tend not to answer obvious questions or comments

Just accept it, cromwell, this is leading nowhere.

You are disturbed by something you cannot notice?
In that case, you can blame your own attitude for this "leading nowhere".

He didn't say he didn't notice, he said he tends not to answer which implies that he sees it but doesn't feel like answering.

And all the OOC I see? I don't do quests anymore because of the absurd amount of OOC that goes on, because people can't work things out IC they have to switch to OOC to defend their reasons for their characters doing things, to complain, etc. So now I lead a happy regular questless life in the community but mind you my sister is a GM and she's constantly showing me things not only during quests but all the time where players are constantly having OOC conversations.

I'm not saying I'm not guilty. I've got more than my fair share of OOC from the last 3 years in my logs but I've learned my lesson. Its the ones that don't learn their lesson that need to be taught. This is a roleplaying game, OOC just isn't necessary. End of story.

Quinasa wrote:And all the OOC I see? I don't do quests anymore because of the absurd amount of OOC that goes on, because people can't work things out IC they have to switch to OOC to defend their reasons for their characters doing things, to complain, etc. So now I lead a happy regular questless life in the community but mind you my sister is a GM and she's constantly showing me things not only during quests but all the time where players are constantly having OOC conversations.

I'm not saying I'm not guilty. I've got more than my fair share of OOC from the last 3 years in my logs but I've learned my lesson. Its the ones that don't learn their lesson that need to be taught. This is a roleplaying game, OOC just isn't necessary. End of story.[/color]

Just an opinion from someone not here but a few months
1. GM's shouldn't be showing logs to anyone
2. if the OOC is whispered and no one sees it but a GM, is that harmful?
(sort of like the question of a tree falling in the forest when no one is there. does it make a noise?).

Though I will definitely follow all the rules of the game as best I can......I also have an opinion on them.

3. Some OOC, and most of the ones I've seen in my limited time, are game related and honest questions: Should the object be rp'd that looks like it landed on the roof..or is it a bug? Does my char need something for her chosen profession because she adjusted some attributes and didn't pick the package for that profession either.

I love this rp game and have learned a lot from all the players here and will definitely do my best to follow all guidelines.......however, not allowing my char to ask about something game related with her skills and attributes that I would prefer not to post in a thread, nor knew who to IM .........shrugs a little...and also considering there are times about every other day no one can get to the forum. sighs Sort of a Catch-22

A little of ooc is allowed, small questions ect don't bother anyone really, as long as kept in whispers.
I don't think Nitram'll ban you for asking something like that once or twice.
It's the senseless ooc that's annoying. The random stuff that has no reason.

1. The Staff has a tool which can watch and log every player, every conversation, every action ingame.

2. The server logs everything which is done or said in the game. Always.

BB is watching you

I got a warning for saying i had to go afk because my dog demanded som cudeling. It might be because I had got to warnings before though? *innoscent whisteling*

Just saying ((afk)) isnt even deserving a warning, everyone did it and its very understandable. The only ooc that should be or is forbidden are either discussions spoke out loud, useless comments or any sort of arguments. Informative things that are linked to what is happening ig as in ((afk)), meaning your character wont react for a moment of time, ((brb)) meaning youre either away or are logging out and back or ((I have to go because of XXX, see you later)), to inform the player you are leaving, all these things should NOT be forbidden in any ways since they are in direct link with the game itself.

Arameh wrote:Just saying ((afk)) isnt even deserving a warning, everyone did it and its very understandable. The only ooc that should be or is forbidden are either discussions spoke out loud, useless comments or any sort of arguments. Informative things that are linked to what is happening ig as in ((afk)), meaning your character wont react for a moment of time, ((brb)) meaning youre either away or are logging out and back or ((I have to go because of XXX, see you later)), to inform the player you are leaving, all these things should NOT be forbidden in any ways since they are in direct link with the game itself.

Well, even this should be reduced to a minimum. If you can manage it you should keep it IC e.g. with explanations like "I am tired, I have to get some sleep" or whatever.
But if you are in a hurry you shouldn´t be punished for things like "((have to go right now to catch the bus, sry bye))".
Of course it is difficult for an outsider to judge which OOC message could have been avoided. Thus I think if one player constantly uses OOC and it is not clear - as I described - a GM has to talk to him / warn him first instead of punishing immediately. (I don´t accuse that this happens)

Loud OOC (includes using non-fitting words), especially when not even in brackets, should be punished.

But I do not really see a sense in punishing people who do some OOC in OOC-mode where noone can listen them. I think it is not true that we have a lot of players who just use Illarion as a chat-tool (but these players should indeed get punished).