Entirely Unfair.

Daashi · Post by **Daashi** » Fri May 19, 2006 7:03 pm

To Markous

a - Step down or she dies. Frankly the only way Stephan could respond to that [considering how he was and is being RPed at this time] was to step down. There was no other option no other way he could react to that situation. Hence it was forced RP.

Stephan for the last week [or maybe longer] has been RPing his intense feelings for Meriel and his overwhelming guilt over his past actions. There is no way PO Stepthan could do a believiable RP involving him doing a 180 degree personality shift and allowing Meriel to die.

b - I haven't been on for long but I have never read one of your posts where Stepthan and PO Stephan were ever described in a postive light.

Any person with a resonable intelligence will know I am not insulting you but how I am merely complaining about how you have acted and pointing out some facts [well what I see as facts].

Sincerely
Daashi

PS - This incident has killed what remain of my joy and enthusiasm in playing this game. Being forced to comply to someone else's script that has things I find disturbing is too much.

Fooser · Post by **Fooser** » Fri May 19, 2006 7:45 pm

I don't really see anything recently as complaining, but if people want to take it as complaining, then fine. Basically I see Stephen/Samantha/whoever else bringing certain things to attention, while giving possible suggestions, saying "______ isnt working, because ________" and so on. But usually, it turns into "zomg bitching!", and the thread gets locked before it goes anywhere, and I'm suprised this one hasn't been locked yet. Basically I agree with what Daashi is saying, and to go further: If your character is getting shoved into certain places by outside forces, many of whom dislike the player OOC, then that is pure BS. And if you want to continue arguing that all of this is just simple complaining, then fine, maybe they have a right to complain about it.

Arameh · Post by **Arameh** » Fri May 19, 2006 8:13 pm

Here is my opinion..

First, Revlen's death was not very right, at least not to me. He did not have more of a choice than Stephen concerning this, to keep with his RP, he HAD to menace the drow, and try getting it out of town. Same exact thing for Stephen, he coulnt let Meriel die by no mean, he woulnt have. As for Devrah, you COMPLAIN because some peoples does

, as well, no one MUST read that sort of topic, if you feel offended by a post, then dont read it.

Second, we must see the questing people's side of the thing. Sure, sometimes they can make mistakes, or do things they shoulnt have. Though they cant think of EVERY things that can happen after their actions, making quests is hard, and making it fair to every players is harder.

Third, what I suggest, is for the questing peoples, to think more about the consequences of what they do, as even small things can possibly affect the game a lot. As well as to slow down a bit with powered characters. For the players, I would say that you must look at their point of view as well, and see more positive aspects too. As well, if you disliked a quest, or an action, try posting it, but in a CONSTRUCTIVE way, like mine

, meaning that posts like "youre complaining on everything and it makes peoples want to stop playing the game *crys* " arent pretty much needed. Im not aiming anyone

.

Thanks for thoses that read everything.

Athian · Post by **Athian** » Fri May 19, 2006 8:51 pm

Situations like Revlens death or Stephens loss of governers position i don't consdier forced rp. or at least not one sided forced rp. remember, the way your character acts was a dicison made by the players in the devlopment of your character. if you have made a character that no longer looks to use other options because of his personality type then that in actuality is no excuse to cry forced rp. there is almost always another option to chose
but i dont' see why it's the quest creators job to make sure every character stays true to the 2 demonsion veiw that they and other players have of them. thats what makes making quests for you people so boring. because you almost always have the same reactions. all the big time power characters are nothing but skill/stat fueled moral codec's. with such a lack of depth that the quest creators literally know exactly what these players will do when a situation is presented to them.

when it comes to quests, honestly players like Revlen, Stephen and various others warrior and mage alike are just not worth involving in most cases. it's like watching a re-run of a tv show. theres just nothing to expect from it.

so long as you attack quest characters are going to fight back, why should they die so that one character may benefit and effectively stifle the rp of anyone else who might want to be involved. just don't see a reason.

Poots · Post by **Poots** » Fri May 19, 2006 9:05 pm

because he's a drow that has been attacking villiger (from what I hear) and then walks up next to a guard and leans on the leaning wall. what's Revlan supposed to do? "oh I can't take him out of town because he's a quest char and could wup my ass."

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Fri May 19, 2006 9:27 pm

Point is, even a demon can be defeated by players. I suggest using what ashkatuul did the one time I got to fight with him long ago. Get a gm char, real attributes except constitution and magic resistance and REAL skills, like 80's. Now, when your char takes so much damage like 1/2 (which will be alot of attacks with something like 50 const) you run and come back later for your next plot. Also, consider corrupting powerful ig chars.

Athian · Post by **Athian** » Fri May 19, 2006 9:46 pm

don't jump to conclusions Gro'bul. there have been plenty of times when we've run instead of killed everyone. and plenty times more when the moment you run every player chases after you in slay mode.

the dragon in the quest with Gewndolin for instance. fought for a bit and ran. three players chased it until the graveyard, until there was no choice but to take them down, they allowed no oppurtunity for the dragon to do anything outside of give a single growl, instead of showing the mildest of fear they leaped in head first. well outside what they needed to do, because they more then likily wanted to see what it's corpse would drop. quest characters can't retreat because people want items.

in other cases we have this scenario

one fighter four bystanders. the fighter is well known, but is faced with a very dangerous oppenent one that obvisously can't be defeated alone. the fighter character however fights anyway, in order to protray there character as the brave knight and not the coward. The choice to fight was not forced by the quest character it was forced by the players lack of deminsion on that aspect of there particular character.

believe me, there are some characters you've run into that could probably annhilate entire groups of warriors without so much as taking a step back, but they refrain from killing everyone so that rp can happen. same event happened with Tye. Stephen freed the person he held captive, but who was unharmed and immediatly attacked, though character Tye had done nothing to phyiscally harm his captive.
before he could get a sentence out of his mouth Stephen and the two mages try to rain death down on him. of course since he didn't die, they got to know the truth about what was really going on which left a chance for after rp. now Tye could have killed them all with ease but did not. consider that restrain from your quest team even when you annoy the hell out of them. and don't go thinking they're completely unbending powermongers.

Cain Freemont · Post by **Cain Freemont** » Sat May 20, 2006 12:11 am

Player 1: I'm bored.
Player 2: There's never anything to do.
Player 3: OMG POLITICS!!!
Players 1 & 2: OMG YEAH!!!

Time passes.

Player 1: I'm bored.
Player 2: Me too.
Player 3: OMG I GOT NOTHIN!

GM Steps in and provides something to do, since nothing was ever specified.

Player 1: OMG THE WORLD IS FLOODING!!
Player 2: OMG YAY!!
Player 4 (because player 3 died in the flood): We're forced into this, but hey its kinda fun I guess.

GM Steps in again.

Player 1: OMFG NOT FAIR FORCE RP
Player 2: LAME
Player 4: I mean, the flood was forced on us too, without anyone asking us if we were interested, but *this* of all things, is not fair. No, forcing everyone to do something without asking them is okay, but when one character gets into a pinch and has to choose the lesser of two evils, it becomes SOOOO unfair.

Fooser · Post by **Fooser** » Sat May 20, 2006 12:21 am

I don't recall seeing anyone complaining about the flood, this is about someone who had their character steered around by others in a significant way, and that is not the point of Illarion.

Cain Freemont · Post by **Cain Freemont** » Sat May 20, 2006 12:29 am

No, no one was complaining about the flood in my post either. I just see some very flawed logic in the argument that its unfair that someone is made to choose between two disagreeable situations, while it seemed perfectly fair to force everyone into dealing with something else. Is it expected that the game is to be all happy bunnies and silly, fun quests with lots of open-ended happy endings? Something like this hasn't happened in a while and I don't see why there are complaints about it.

Garett Gwenour · Post by **Garett Gwenour** » Sat May 20, 2006 12:43 am

Athian wrote:don't jump to conclusions Gro'bul. there have been plenty of times when we've run instead of killed everyone. and plenty times more when the moment you run every player chases after you in slay mode.

the dragon in the quest with Gewndolin for instance. fought for a bit and ran. three players chased it until the graveyard, until there was no choice but to take them down, they allowed no oppurtunity for the dragon to do anything outside of give a single growl, instead of showing the mildest of fear they leaped in head first. well outside what they needed to do, because they more then likily wanted to see what it's corpse would drop. quest characters can't retreat because people want items.

in other cases we have this scenario

one fighter four bystanders. the fighter is well known, but is faced with a very dangerous oppenent one that obvisously can't be defeated alone. the fighter character however fights anyway, in order to protray there character as the brave knight and not the coward. The choice to fight was not forced by the quest character it was forced by the players lack of deminsion on that aspect of there particular character.

believe me, there are some characters you've run into that could probably annhilate entire groups of warriors without so much as taking a step back, but they refrain from killing everyone so that rp can happen. same event happened with Tye. Stephen freed the person he held captive, but who was unharmed and immediatly attacked, though character Tye had done nothing to phyiscally harm his captive.
before he could get a sentence out of his mouth Stephen and the two mages try to rain death down on him. of course since he didn't die, they got to know the truth about what was really going on which left a chance for after rp. now Tye could have killed them all with ease but did not. consider that restrain from your quest team even when you annoy the hell out of them. and don't go thinking they're completely unbending powermongers.

Wow your way off. First with the dragon. Never once after I repeatedly did #me looks to see if the dragon is at all hurt, did the dragon respond in any way to that. And as it was retreating and showed no reason to be there except to be a killable creature for loot we chased it. However it did nothing to show that what we were doing was not effecting it in anyway and so we were doomed from the start. A fault of the person controlling the dragon who needed to show the dragon was not at all harmed.

And I really dont understand exactly what your saying here "The choice to fight was not forced by the quest character it was forced by the players lack of deminsion on that aspect of there particular character." That is plain bs, if we are talking about my case it is BS. I had no choice but to step down and if you refuse to see that much then you are blind siding yourself and defending the sinking ship that is the quest team if they cannot admit/see their faults.

Also, i really do not think quest characters need to be pushed to unbeatable levels. I think the Drow could have been Salathe's fighting skill with perhaps Lady Meryadeles magic powers and guess what, would still beat anyone one on one, even people three on one.

I wait for someone to give one good reason why a quest character must be invincible.

Garett Gwenour · Post by **Garett Gwenour** » Sat May 20, 2006 12:50 am

Lady Arynne wrote:Poots, you were not in Illarion long enough to know, or else you weren't paying attention. A LOT went on with Pendar.

Untrue, Pendar did not have to deal with people having OOC vendettas against him being played IC. So when the town was lost during the Lich war, no one blamed him. When the town was over run with plants, no one blamed him. etc.

Poots · Post by **Poots** » Sat May 20, 2006 12:54 am

he has a point.

Garett Gwenour · Post by **Garett Gwenour** » Sat May 20, 2006 1:00 am

Cain Freemont wrote:No, no one was complaining about the flood in my post either. I just see some very flawed logic in the argument that its unfair that someone is made to choose between two disagreeable situations, while it seemed perfectly fair to force everyone into dealing with something else. Is it expected that the game is to be all happy bunnies and silly, fun quests with lots of open-ended happy endings? Something like this hasn't happened in a while and I don't see why there are complaints about it.

You cannot use a GM character and call out a regular character. Doing so dictates the outcome of ingame politics that people work on together through roleplay.
Even Markous sees this problem. I do not understand why you would try to argue that what happened IS NOT wrong.

Japheth · Post by **Japheth** » Sat May 20, 2006 1:32 am

PO Stephen's point is fair. I see a genuine breach of trust between quest staff and the player's involved in the event. As I have pointed out on the ESQS, I would like for events to stop focusing on the larger than life characters, and start refocusing on the smaller characters again.

Involve the new and less well known players in your epic quests. Can we please leave characters like Stephen, Meriel etc to their own devices? They may seem hugely interesting and consequently fun to quest with, but honestly, haven't they had their fill of events?

NirAntae · Post by **NirAntae** » Sat May 20, 2006 1:45 am

Japheth wrote:PO Stephen's point is fair. I see a genuine breach of trust between quest staff and the player's involved in the event. As I have pointed out on the ESQS, I would like for events to stop focusing on the larger than life characters, and start refocusing on the smaller characters again.

Involve the new and less well known players in your epic quests. Can we please leave characters like Stephen, Meriel etc to their own devices? They may seem hugely interesting and consequently fun to quest with, but honestly, haven't they had their fill of events?

Hear, hear! No matter what happens, these 'big-name' characters will find things to do, and likely be involved in some way in anything that happens. Quit focusing everything on them just because they've 'been around'. Create some opportunities for new members. This is the great power of this game, and if it is to survive and flourish, this power should be shown to newer players.

I will say honestly, the one thing that hooked me and drew me back to this game rather than all the others available, was when my character, Maggie, a complete no-name, was not only involved in, but had a signifigant hand in solving, a major quest (the plants taking over the town). No other game would or probably even could provide this sort of involvement to a 'new' character... or even more established ones.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Sat May 20, 2006 2:07 am

Theres no point in arguing the happenings, suggestions to make sure something like this doesn't occur again is logical.

Theres a legitamacy of a gm char that must be attained before players will accept his "uber-powerfulness" as real. Your deep seeded plots need to be exposed to some degree for players (not characters) to see or else they will just think your running around pwning with a gm char. The knights templar(and similarly secretive orgs.) easily had opposition raised to them because of the secretivity and rumors of what they did, its a surprisingly similar situation considering we can only speculate on the intentions of these seemingly random happenings. All we have is the word of people who we suspect have personal interests in mind preceding their actions to rely on.

Also, double axes aren't much good against arrows, I have nothing against Revlen being killed. I still think several skilled warriors holding tower shields and weapons should have been able to kill him, since a tower shield covers practically everything minus the legs and feet, but that didn't happen so its a keep-in-mind thinger I guess.

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Sat May 20, 2006 2:16 am

So let me get his straight. This is supposedly unfair because a GM or super-powered character gives an ultimatum to a regular character so therefore he has to comply because he can't win in combat? Well excuse me, but this isn't a unique scenario. Super-powered characters have always come along and issued ultimatums to either comply or face destruction, and yet some people who complain now have never complained about those. Just because this involves a personal blackmail and a forefeit of political power that you want to keep doesn't make the principles any different from a GM Lich making the common ultimatum of "Bow down to me or I destroy everyone" or "Everyone gimme 500 gold coins or I stomp all over your crops." 500 coins and crops are just as important to a farmer player, as loyalty to his god and the lives of random villagers are important to a knight, as your political power and kidnapped damsel is important to Garret. Those situation are the exact same relative to the principle at hand, and don't tell me it isn't by pointing out some obsure and arbitrarily picked difference that doesn't change the principle, such as the fact only a single player is being threatened.

Now I'm not here to debate whether any particular scenarios were fair or not, but I AM here to point out the hyporcrisy of people's view on this issue. When the outcome is favorable to what players want or doesn't affect them, people call it a great quest. When the outcome is unfavorable to what they want or hits close to home, its suddenly a huge injustice.

Athian · Post by **Athian** » Sat May 20, 2006 3:56 am

@ Stephen. the dragon wasn't invincible at all. most of the quest characters are killable if you do it right, just because you can't one on one it doens't mean it won't die somehow. as to the dragon Scenario, couldn't stop to #me, because Durgin and whoever else that was jsut kept on hitting. maybe you were #me ing but i'm commenting on general player form. if dragon would have stopped for #me Dragon would have been dead.

and no i'm not refering to your particular situation, and no what i'm saying is not BS. because i know you've seen it yourself in player, in fact anyone who says they haven't seen that occur hasn't been playing long enough. your situation was unqiue and pretty much unknown to me until i entered in toward the end phase of it all

also i agree more quests for the regular man, which have been tried before even though uber characters tend to want to run the show anyway.

. but yes a quest i feel should never start off surrounding just a particular set of characters there should be a definate chance for others to get involved.

Poots · Post by **Poots** » Sat May 20, 2006 5:13 am

don't even get into the "everything is mortal" fight. yes, it's true, if Salathe, Arameh, Stephen, and some other knights were fighting it, they might have a chance. but usually, they're not all on.

Athian · Post by **Athian** » Sat May 20, 2006 5:15 am

what is this 'it' you speak of? theres are alot of it's poots. i don't think you were present for any of the events i'm speaking of.

if your refering to the dragon that ended peacefully, or else someone lied to you. anything else i don't know.

Poots · Post by **Poots** » Sat May 20, 2006 5:17 am

it= dragon, drow, overpowered char.

I haven't been around for much, but Ive seen it's destruction though. 3 arrows and Revlens dead. three arrows are shot extremely quickly. that means he could kill just about anyone in 6 shots or less. how is that possible to even get close to?

Athian · Post by **Athian** » Sat May 20, 2006 5:20 am

dragon= not overpowered, completely vincible. i would knowing being that it's my dragon.

Drow=the equivliant of a man pointing a gun at an assilant with a bat, which one do you think is faster? and would it be smart to attack that head to head.

Poots · Post by **Poots** » Sat May 20, 2006 5:24 am

sooo, we're going to go get our non-existant archers with overpowered skills to go shoot at them? and Ive never seen a dragon but logicaly it would be much better than a drow (and a demon?) and If a drow is this powerful, well... you know.

and what was this "they kept chasing me so I finally got sick of it and just killed them" crap? you talk as though you don't even try.

edit:

I'm not trying to complain, I'm just saying that you have to admit, dragons and such are as close to immortal as anything can get.

Arameh · Post by **Arameh** » Sat May 20, 2006 5:34 am

Athian wrote:dragon= not overpowered, completely vincible. i would knowing being that it's my dragon.

Drow=the equivliant of a man pointing a gun at an assilant with a bat, which one do you think is faster? and would it be smart to attack that head to head.

Its a bow, 3 arrows on a very armored opponents is very harsh. A drow is not much better than any other race, and other players cant hurt half of it. I dont think any quest character should be stronger than Salathe and such, unless they are dragons, demons etc.

Athian · Post by **Athian** » Sat May 20, 2006 5:40 am

not at all, if you knew anything about the plot the dragon was a fledgling. being that you know nothing about the plot maybe you should not comment on things you don't understand. what i mean is that the dragon was breathing flames at the fighters fighters were gettting hit, drinking potions and coming right back for more. instead of being 'burned' they played it off as if it wasn't enough to stop there super warrior. fire hurts alot. it cripples and kills. but it didn't matter in that case.

as to the drow with the bow. it doens't matter if he had a huge amount of techincal skill. if anyone pointed a gun at you which is the basic equvilant. would you still attack them?

in an rp sense Revlen could never have been sure how much skill was behind the bow. even if a 10 yearold pointed a bow at you you'd naturally think twice before doing anything. so the reaction i feel was somewhat bad on that count and i have no problem with what happened.

what your saying is because player A: can't kill me with 12 arrows. his arrows aren't arrows at all. there just hits. not sharp pointed objects that puncture skin and organs and go through armor like a knife through butter at close range.

Arameh · Post by **Arameh** » Sat May 20, 2006 5:51 am

The thing is its a game, if we wanted it to be 100% realistic, then one strike with a sword would kill, one flame would kill etc. Peoples dosent respond to one more than the other. If someone (example Arameh) would have came behind the drow and hit it with a sword, it SHOULD have died, as much as Revlen did, if we use realism. But it woulnd not have, it would have turned and killed Arameh with 4 arrows, thats why we cant always use logic or realism. Or then it only favorise certain aspects like archery for this example, as with realism, the drow could have missed, Revlen could have jumped behind a table etc etc. Thats why we need balanced in that, as well technically, and as much in RP.

Athian · Post by **Athian** » Sat May 20, 2006 5:57 am

right arameh any of those things could have happened if rp were involved int the scenario. but the chosen course ended up being a Ctrl=click battle. and Revlen in this case lost.

it's not that every technical aspect must be followed. but it's just like when a robber player holds a knife to another players neck, and instead of responding to the rp threat the robber gets turned on and pounded because he doesn't have enough skill. some things do deserve a level of realism when being done.

Samantha Meryadeles · Post by **Samantha Meryadeles** » Sat May 20, 2006 9:21 am

Drow=the equivliant of a man pointing a gun at an assilant with a bat, which one do you think is faster? and would it be smart to attack that head to head.

But the man with the gun won't have enough dodge, parry and tactics to survive more than enough hits from a warrior. And also more than enough magic resistance to laugh about the strongest playerchar-mage ingame.

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Sat May 20, 2006 10:10 am

Let's keep the fighting in context of the game. If this thing were to have too much realism, we'd also have to factor in other complicated variables like human biomechanics.