Critical Point.

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:32 am

Martin has a terrible habit of making players look bad in public. Martin, if you have a problem with the player of Moirear then take it to the PMs you do not need to humiliate the player in public for your own ego.

Now a question, to the GMs what must happen for you to make things like it was a few years back? Already there are experienced players, players that effect the world of illarion leaving because of the same reasons. Well, Nartak left because people were assholes to him and he didn't want to take it anymore, but the point is most of these players who leave are leaving for the same reasons.

Rand Kalhan Al'Vega · Post by **Rand Kalhan Al'Vega** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:35 am

after reading this post I think I may leave too... good post KK *claps*

AlaineMilan · Post by **AlaineMilan** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:39 am

hey rand thats unfair
i dont think this diskussion is good....they want to get out all players with this. i enjoy illarion how it is

Rand Kalhan Al'Vega · Post by **Rand Kalhan Al'Vega** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:40 am

sorry.. but I agree with him on almost every point

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:33 am

I agree with the skill gain making the game more tedious and distracting attention from the gameplay. Mostly this affects the roleplayers who take 10x longer to get the char they want and powergamers just try 10x harder. This increased difficulty in skill gain was to put powergamers off playing and give an advantage to the rolepleyers, which I think hasn't worked. In the old days a powergamer would get the skills they wanted in say a week or so, where as a roleplayer would take a few months before they were at the same level. All that happens now is that the margin between the powergamer and roleplayer reaching the same level is increased.

I hope my post makes sense, I'm just really tired right now and can't really elaborate on what I mean.

Moskher Heszche · Post by **Moskher Heszche** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 6:25 am

I hope you also realize that the GMs, developers, SVST members, etc.. have all talked about this very point and are looking to implement something close enough to it. How many times must we explain that our proposal as such often related to a variation of the following:

Keeping skill gain the same while making each skill point worth more so that a player can do more with less skill points and a skill cap of one sort or another, often accompanied by a leaning curve so that lower-skilled characters build slightly faster than those with higher skills.

But we'd rather say that the above people are the enemy than work with them with this proposal. Did I ever see you comment to the two or so public posts about this very thing? I don't recall. Nothing of value at the very least.

You want to hear what Martin told me about Konstantin's proposals? That he liked them alot and wants to implement quite a few of them. Funny, huh? But he's the bad guy, still, right?

Rand Kalhan Al'Vega · Post by **Rand Kalhan Al'Vega** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:41 pm

Martin is not a bad guy... this thread got a little... just a little.. out of hand

martin · Post by **martin** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:48 pm

I have no problem with being a bad guy at all. It's all subjective.

If people have a problem with me being a problem I have no problem with that. I even have no problem if people have a problem that I don't see that as problem.
If someone wants to substitute me, I am perfectly fine with that.

Martin

Pronon Palmsuger · Post by **Pronon Palmsuger** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:44 pm

The Game peaked for me before the Drought. The account system had been implemented to keep out some of the bad RP. the few bad RPers that sliped in were usually driven off (I have an example but cant think of his name) Some of K's points I liked some I didnt. but IMO you should bring the game back exactly as it was about 2 weeks before the sand began to grow. Some of you may say the drought was good RP but to me it was terrible until the day when everyone banded together to get rid of it. I mean, who did it continued to change, all fish died all ore disappears no cabbage will grow, I mean this kind of drought would destroy the island No cabbage? Farming truley would have been one of the most important aspects of life, but it seems Im the only one who does it and I have to do it by myself because no one will find you at the Farmland. I liked it when the tavern yard was farmable it brought people to the tavern, it encouraged theivery (I sure had plenty of crops stolen) and it was all around fun, you could find 16 players all near the same spot without running to Northrot and Greenbriar and all the places in between. but even then I would go on Herbs hikes with players and search for "rare herbs" knowing we wouldnt find any, but it was just more fun. I know I would play way more if it were brought back to before the drought.

Just my thoughts
Player Of Pronon

Moirear Sian · Post by **Moirear Sian** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 7:27 pm

AlaineMilan wrote:they want to get out all players with this.

If you among others mean me with "they", then you are mistaken.
I mean, I could just stop actively thinking about how to improve the role-playing in this game, as I'm neither paid for it, nor hardly ever thanked for it, either.

And Martin, you are not a bad guy.
However a powerful Jedi, you have yet to devote yourself completely to the dark side, my young Padawan.

Dónal Mason · Post by **Dónal Mason** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:23 pm

Nobody is trying to get people to leave. They merely showed another option.

But, with such a small community, things really need to be brought closer ingame. Having to travel to the other side of the island really puts a dampener on the roleplay, because everyone is spread out throughout the island.

martin · Post by **martin** » Tue Nov 16, 2004 8:50 pm

Moirear Sian wrote:However a powerful Jedi, you have yet to devote yourself completely to the dark side, my young Padawan.

The darkest one makes everyone believe that he is not entirely on the dark side.

That's the whole story.

Martin

Drathe · Post by **Drathe** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 3:12 pm

A breath of fresh air, there are some very valid points in Konstantin’s post which shine out clear as candle light. Having read through it all, while I do not agree with a few points and understand the technical limitations of the game for others, I feel as a player relieved and somewhat humbled by the fact that another play has had the stomach and the courage for fear of ridicule to clearly state his grievance with the game and its path.

Illarion is just a dull game to play these days in my opinion… its boring. I don’t bother to craft anything anymore because materials take to long to gather, tools break far to easily, another experiment to increase player interaction that in my view only makes for irritation and frustration.

If I can make anything at all it is a surprise having been killed so many times by monsters, trying to understand and learn about the new fighting system. I have lost most of my crafting skills which as we all know take an age to acquire so I simply do not bother trying to get them back. I wouldn’t dare for fear of being branded a Powergamer.

I don’t use magic anymore because the system was changed, with no basic official technical guidance on how to use it. It has to all be gained in game which I find an annoyance. Payers that do know how to use it are very loathed to teach others, I have seen it happen to others and have the same problem.

Why does it have to be so damn hard to do anything in game, I can not even find anybody to learn things from because they are all scatted over the map, nor purchase items I need from them.

Konstantin’s points in the following are definitively Illarions problems, and ARE within the games technical boundaries to remedy should the players want them to be.

3. SKILL GAIN
6. RP versus GAMEPLAY
7. GATHERING RESOURCES
8. CONTROL
9. GAMEMASTERS

Without mentioning names… we have seen the backs of so many good characters and players, not all for games reasons true, but the majority for and what do we have now… a generation of Manga character players with a forum and play style I find so damn irritating and childlike. I have no need to mention any names for you know who I am referring to.

I do not think I am an elite player, far from it I am about… middle line I would say at best. I just want to play Illarion, with others, craft and hunt, gather and make with other players. I do not want to be spoon-fed or have my arse wiped, I do not want my dinner handed to me on a plate. But I do want to be able to gain skill in a degree of time that is worth MY time, I don’t want to loose it all should I die. I don’t want to walk miles across a lagging map to find a depot. I don’t want to spend hours looking for people doing the same.

I personally want changed for the better of the game and its enjoyment of play. Do you the players? Do you the GMs? So either all these changes are all part of a master plan or… we are at a crossroad in Illarions life. Do we all work together as players and GMs for balanced, discussed changes of the aforementioned points to suit the majority or do we carry on the same old road.

I know what I would like… I also have a feeling I will be trudging down an old road. I cant leave the game, I love it, the characters the style the comunity for all its pros and cons.

So... whay happens now?

Myers · Post by **Myers** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 4:40 pm

I must agree with Drathe he has made some valid points. I understand the need for change and adjustment but find it all too difficult trying to gain access to the new rules.

Sir Gannon · Post by **Sir Gannon** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 4:55 pm

Damn it Drathe I told you im not a manga character!! Wait... You did'nt say my name... * Clears his throat * Ohhk then... Oh yes my opinion. Gotta agree with Drathe. A game has to be fun. I can't count how many times I got drunk with you Drathe * Remembers the good old days * Then stagger into a group of people and get great laughs haha. Well as it is now I have ALOT of time to spend in-game. So i'm doing what I can to make everyones life in-game easier. Chances are I will be here for a good month. So your stuck with me *Winks * Ok have fun bashing me and finding loop holes in my words. G'day.

Aristeaus · Post by **Aristeaus** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 5:03 pm

Who did not sit around in the past and get drunk with Drathe

Myers · Post by **Myers** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:25 pm

I for one did most definately sit around and get drunk with Drathe, Aristeaus, for I am a Lady

Pronon Palmsuger · Post by **Pronon Palmsuger** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:59 pm

Summayr below for those of you too lazy to read

All I can talk about in game any more is "good old times" like "remember the good old days when?" "Remember how that damned drought ruined all of our good times" IMO the drought was the start of the end. Durring the drought Many more players left, after the drought when these new changes were installed, many players left, and now more players are leaving. any pattern here? People have been leaving far more frequently after the drought and for reasons like "the game is no fun any more" rather than "Im join the military, Im going to school, I lost internet" And yes, some of K's points were impossible do to the client and what not, but I KNOW you have the power to bring the game like it was before the drought. I also know there needs to be no better RP reason thean "The gods" That how the drought started, thats how these caves just magically appear I asume because you know, someone has to dig these caves. I asked on the boreds who dug the caves, a GM replied "I did" where is the RP in that? These new changes supposed to encourage RP not only discourage it, but they have no RP to begin with! I feel and I think players would agree that the game should be reverted to how it was except maybe the graphics. Seriously the fighting system is the only thing that needs to improve either way you go.

So to Sum up the entire thing: Revert the game to how it was 2 weeks before the sand began to expand. Im sure many players would agree.

martin · Post by **martin** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 11:10 pm

Pronon Palmsuger wrote:So to Sum up the entire thing: Revert the game to how it was 2 weeks before the sand began to expand. Im sure many players would agree.

The day you decide to do that is the day that I set up my router's firewall to block any traffic to and from the domain www.illarion.org.

Martin

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:11 am

WARNING!!! HANDBAGS ON STANDBY!!!

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:24 am

@Martin- What is the problem of putting everything like it was before the drought? And making the game easier?

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 4:04 am

The idea of the game is to go forwards, if we reset to the pre-drought era it would not solve the problem they felt they faced with these problems. Haven't martin or someone of the staff said that they are working to solve these problems? I suppose it may be a temporary measure, perhaps.

martin · Post by **martin** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:42 am

Grant Herion wrote:@Martin- What is the problem of putting everything like it was before the drought? And making the game easier?

Me investing month of full time (I repeat: full time) work into something that is deleted afterwards.

Not only that I would try to forget Illarion entirely, I guess it also would lead to a medium depression plus life crisis. And I am not kidding here.

Martin

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:01 am

Ironically, there are people who feel the same way everytime the delicate balance of the cast of characters and the unreplicable chemistry of their complimenting roles achieved arduously with time, are brushed aside in the wake of an earth-shattering technical "improvement".

Quite mysterious the similarities you find on both sides of the abyss. You learn something new everyday.

martin · Post by **martin** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:12 am

Dyluck wrote:Ironically, there are people who feel the same way everytime the delicate balance of the cast of characters and the unreplicable chemistry of their complimenting roles achieved arduously with time, are brushed aside in the wake of an earth-shattering technical "improvement".

Quite mysterious the similarities you find on both sides of the abyss. You learn something new everyday.

I strongly object, stronger then I have ever objected in my whole life.

I do not talk about playing some game here and then, I talk about investing 8 and more hours per day in hard work for several month that I and others have invested in programming and creating graphics. This is something very different.

You are comparing playing a game with real work.

Do you know what that means? Basically you ask to undo half a year of my and others life. Just by snipping fingers. We invested the main part of the time we have in that!

Please stop before I REALLY start getting angry, I am rather upset now. And congratulations, yes, I wanted to program just now, but I currently lost motivation.
Sorry.

Martin

Drathe · Post by **Drathe** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:58 am

I do not think the game was at its best before the drought, nor do I think it is now. To simply put the game back to how it was but with the updated graphics would solve very little, that again would be a wrong move.

The game has come along way from those days, not all for the worse at all. The library system, including the way a player finds out about his attributes by reading up on them is great. The new graphics so hard worked on really make the game a pleasure to look at for hours on end.

Fighting and magic system with a little adjustment here and there will soon develop into a solid RP tool for the game, its interesting and challenging to use and learn if you can get someone to teach you. (Maybe give players a little official technical help on basic magic)

Gathering of herbs I think is better now for the fact that you have to find the locations of herbs, rather than just find them all on the same square, As for mining , again makes for a little bit more of a challenge. There are a few things that could be changed for the better for example the placing of Depots but things like this can easily be solved by putting it to the players.

Not to mention all the hard work we as players do not see in the coding and behind the scenes. To sum it up the game has easily taken two steps forward, but I think taken one back for attitude and game play.

What Dyluck said is a fair point, when you have worked so damn hard and I say WORKED because it is not fun gathering resources to work tirelessly to make a gold coin or two and advance in your crafting profession. Only to be killed because the fighting system has changed… so to has the magic, so you can heal your self… and the potions with not one word of technical support in how these new systems work. Its shit. Plain and simple. I as a player feel like that and I am sure others do and have.

You work hard Martin, so to do some of the others yet other than the same old arse lickers on the forum, where is all the credit and appreciation you deserve?

I admit as players we should show more, but to the same credit you as the game developers making a game for player to play for joy and fun of role-playing, THEIR and YOUR role playing. You development people should be more open to change, more understanding of why they want this.

Ok you have worked hard, so to did the people who built the Berlin wall and we know what happened to that. The people wanted change for the better. It could be argued that it did not quite work out for the better. But the people worked to gether and achieve what the majority wanted.

I personally an not asking for the moon on a stick, I am not asking for you to change months of work, Just listen to us and change the few things that seem to be reoccurring in peoples requests, pleas and farewells. You can and never will please every body but you can the majority.

martin · Post by **martin** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:11 am

Drathe wrote: Only to be killed because the fighting system has changed…

So you are suggesting that we should have left it as it was?
Look at the news of 02/29/2004 04:19pm. You were informed. Additionally, there were numerous threads on this board, the proposal board and the technical board describing the new system, the dangers and so on. Blaming us for being killed is, in my understanding, rather stupid.

and the potions with not one word of technical support in how these new systems work.

There were board messages describing these changes.

Its shit. Plain and simple. I as a player feel like that and I am sure others do and have.

You can give me your RL adress and send me some money, I will then start writing you snail mail letters informing you about changes. If you want to, I can even call you up, which, however, will require some extra money.

You development people should be more open to change, more understanding of why they want this.

I have a huge change to be made:
DELETE * FROM player

Are you serious? We are changing things all the time and people want these changes to be deleted again!

As long as you do not make any specific proposals, I take this as a joke.

Ok you have worked hard, so to did the people who built the Berlin wall and we know what happened to that.

They got paid for building it.

I personally an not asking for the moon on a stick, I am not asking for you to change months of work, Just listen to us and change the few things that seem to be reoccurring in peoples requests, pleas and farewells. You can and never will please every body but you can the majority.

You are right, we do not plan to change anything.

Martin

Moskher Heszche · Post by **Moskher Heszche** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:31 am

Martin,

Ignore this. The vast majority of us know how giddy you get when a new proposal that will help illarion is.

The rest of you, the proposal board is a few clicks below the general board. I don't see why you believe you should hold your playing hostage on the general board to get proposals in. I suppose you're better than everyone else.

--Mitch

Drathe · Post by **Drathe** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:30 pm

No I am not for one minute saying that the fighting, magic or potions should never have been changed. Having read your reply I see there was an official notice that the fighting system was implemented, I apologise for saying other wise.

I was not in anyway blaming anybody for my character being killed it is entirely my own fault, but in context of this thread of things being changed such as how hard it is to gain skill and the loss of it through death, wanting to play test the system is rather costly to a character. With regards the notice about the new systems being implemented as I apologised for I did not see it. But could there not be a little more detail about how the systems works? A little bit more on the basic weapons, basic armour, runes and their use? Or would you consider it to be too much of a game spoiler? What about you the players do you think it would?

Yes, I am serious. People have a good idea things are changed by your good selves. They are found to not work very well in game or limit the enjoyment… so… *shrugs* what leave it? I have not made any proposals because there were plenty made at the start of this thread, lots to give an idea as to what might need adjusting, adding or removing.

If you want to take it as a Joke, I have no problem with that. I am not the best writer nor I am very good as trying to get across what I mean. I will also put my hands up and say I do sometimes let my personal views and dislikes interfere with my writing but…then. That’s what the forum is for. To get an over all idea of peoples writings to balances it all out.

martin · Post by **martin** » Thu Nov 18, 2004 12:53 pm

Drathe wrote:but in context of this thread of things being changed such as how hard it is to gain skill and the loss of it through death,

The loss of skills while being dead was reduced by a FAIR amount some month ago.
Gaining skills will be changed soon, as mentioned about fourty million times already, we are working on it. This ist NOT the final version!

Martin