Discussion: Rules for ingame jailings
Moderator: Gamemasters
I don't really like the "invisible guards" claim, but it does make sense. I would just like to know where these "guards" come into play with the jailing system. Example: A known criminal walks into town, barters with Eliza, and leaves the town, all while nobody is online. The town guard say that there are more guards just invisible, like the children of TB.
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Arkadia Misella
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The way I always handled that is I never use to get online when no one else was on just so I could get into town.....just if I needed to be in town, I would scout around and if it seemed safe, I would walk right in...I figure Along with the invisible guard there are invosoble people I can blend in with.
It may be cheesy...but It gets old to walk into town and have 3 guard with their backs to you, but you ahve to run anyway because they automatically start yelling at you. Darn people with their eyes in the back of their heads. Any way yo solve that?Making only left, right, and front actually viewable?
It may be cheesy...but It gets old to walk into town and have 3 guard with their backs to you, but you ahve to run anyway because they automatically start yelling at you. Darn people with their eyes in the back of their heads. Any way yo solve that?Making only left, right, and front actually viewable?
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Derinoar Fallvictor
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Hagen von Rabenfeld
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When i read the rules, i would like to point out, that they were already obeyed even before they were written down in every single incident i can think of.
Also, i only let chars of players join the guard, which i consider good roleplayers, which is, of course, nothing but an opinion, but we do our best. This is especially necessary, as many people are just identifying with their chars too much, when it comes to IG conflicts.
I would also like to say, why the key was necessary in the first place, at least from my point of view. Because the roleplay of the arresting scenes became nothing but ridiculous.
I wont write down the names, but there were people, who didnt want to leave the town, no matter how often you killed them, shoving orgies for more than 45 minutes, invincible ors, who are able to break the grip of three men, people "hiding" in the building "shadows", yelling and casting all around, searched criminals that chat on the marketplace, dead people, who come back from the cross and simply continue their conversation, ignoring even their own death, the regular visit of people playing the smartass for hours on the other side of the river and finally the infamous "#me disapears(logging out)". They werent only ridiculous, if one tries to imagine, how the scene would really look like, but also annyoing to play. In many cases for both sides.
Critizism/suggestions:
The usual twice a day visit from an outlaw on the other side of the river can be easily solved ig i guess. Claiming the land as Troll´s Bane´s territory or build and additional wall.
I think it would be good to add an additional rule, considering how to roleplay, if people try to hold another char and how and when to use the shoving function. Not all of us are mages and im sick of invincible halflings that break the grip of a man, two times his size and orcs that keep on shoving away three men, that try to grab him, but are just too clumsy.(or the orc is slippery, i dont know) This leads back to Keikan´s point of "logical roleplay" and people, who seem to think their chars are gifted with superhuman strenght and agility. A technical mesure like using a rope with the other char, to restrict his movement and/or fighting ability would be appreciated, but i guess that would be difficult to make. (perhaps considering the "tied" char as overencumbered, so he cant escape easily.)
For the other problem, there is already a rule. Logging while the char is being arrested is a breach of the rule, not to use OOC means to evade IG drawbacks. But i would like to mention, that i do not consider it good RP when a hunted criminal walks out of the screen and logs, when there would be no way to run.
To your comments:
"Sneaking" inside the town, while no char is online, who could jail you, is also doubtful from my point of view. The theory of invisible guards is of course doubtful too, but i think noone can expect from us to stay online 24 hours a day, so that every outlaw has the chance of roleplaying his tresspassing.
If people would roleplay fairly, there would be no need for the key. I think there are some players, who can verify, that the more they roleplayed, the less i had to use the jailing function. (if we werent too lazy to walk all the way to the prison, i admit
) And there were many people , who got away, because Hagen was too tired, to follow the people, he sent to the cross, or because he was tricked outfoxed or whatever. Unlike some criminals, he is not invincible, just experienced in his job, so that you have to be inventive, of how evading punishment. (And once and for all. People, who run around in town, wearing a mask ARE strange enough to be questioned!)
If it were very realistic, there would be no need for it either.
Give me a way to hold other chars, to tie them, to chop of their hands, if they stole, to let their skills reduce while in prison because of malnutrition, diseases and an unhealthy atmosphere, delete every account of a char, that i beheaded and enough players to let two of them stand at the gate the whole day and check the pictures of the known criminals and i would gladly give away any OOC mean to jail other chars. But i guess that wouldnt make you happy either.
And finnaly i want to express a wish of mine
:
Dont overdo it. Tresspassing every third day is not realistic. Yelling every day over the river is simply annoying. Attacking the other side every day, is no roleplay, but boring. Especially if one scene resembles the other and comes repeatedly.
Learn, when you have lost. This is a game and there is no need to get upset, whatever happens to your char. Stay calm and do not open a new thread everytime your char "lost". I did not whine on the board everytime, when the situation was not in our favour and i see no point in doing so. There are drawbacks for criminals in this game and this is, as it should be like. Why should a criminal walk easily in a town and haggle with the shop owner? He would need to find someone, who does this secretly. But this problem, like almost every other, can be solved by IG means. But this needs initiative from your side and is not the problem of the game or your fellow players. The outlaws got a depot on their own, thanks to a fellow player of their enemies, which i consider rather strange. Instead of whining OOC, IG ideas are much more appropriate.
Also, i only let chars of players join the guard, which i consider good roleplayers, which is, of course, nothing but an opinion, but we do our best. This is especially necessary, as many people are just identifying with their chars too much, when it comes to IG conflicts.
I would also like to say, why the key was necessary in the first place, at least from my point of view. Because the roleplay of the arresting scenes became nothing but ridiculous.
I wont write down the names, but there were people, who didnt want to leave the town, no matter how often you killed them, shoving orgies for more than 45 minutes, invincible ors, who are able to break the grip of three men, people "hiding" in the building "shadows", yelling and casting all around, searched criminals that chat on the marketplace, dead people, who come back from the cross and simply continue their conversation, ignoring even their own death, the regular visit of people playing the smartass for hours on the other side of the river and finally the infamous "#me disapears(logging out)". They werent only ridiculous, if one tries to imagine, how the scene would really look like, but also annyoing to play. In many cases for both sides.
Critizism/suggestions:
The usual twice a day visit from an outlaw on the other side of the river can be easily solved ig i guess. Claiming the land as Troll´s Bane´s territory or build and additional wall.
I think it would be good to add an additional rule, considering how to roleplay, if people try to hold another char and how and when to use the shoving function. Not all of us are mages and im sick of invincible halflings that break the grip of a man, two times his size and orcs that keep on shoving away three men, that try to grab him, but are just too clumsy.(or the orc is slippery, i dont know) This leads back to Keikan´s point of "logical roleplay" and people, who seem to think their chars are gifted with superhuman strenght and agility. A technical mesure like using a rope with the other char, to restrict his movement and/or fighting ability would be appreciated, but i guess that would be difficult to make. (perhaps considering the "tied" char as overencumbered, so he cant escape easily.)
For the other problem, there is already a rule. Logging while the char is being arrested is a breach of the rule, not to use OOC means to evade IG drawbacks. But i would like to mention, that i do not consider it good RP when a hunted criminal walks out of the screen and logs, when there would be no way to run.
To your comments:
"Sneaking" inside the town, while no char is online, who could jail you, is also doubtful from my point of view. The theory of invisible guards is of course doubtful too, but i think noone can expect from us to stay online 24 hours a day, so that every outlaw has the chance of roleplaying his tresspassing.
Of course it is not realistic to be "teleported"into prison/arrested by invisible guards, but if you really want to make it realistic, then invent a technical measure for all i have written above, about the examples of very poor roleplay. (besides i only teleported people that are far away from me, when either OOC means were used, or who did not give us a possibility to react, when they "break our grip" and immidiatelly run away, counting on the fact, that it needs some seconds to write a #me attacks or whatever)Because this will result a more realistic jailing, chance for guards to actually have to think about how to catch criminals, a chance for criminals to actually get away, and overall more possibilities for better roleplay on both sides.
If people would roleplay fairly, there would be no need for the key. I think there are some players, who can verify, that the more they roleplayed, the less i had to use the jailing function. (if we werent too lazy to walk all the way to the prison, i admit
) And there were many people , who got away, because Hagen was too tired, to follow the people, he sent to the cross, or because he was tricked outfoxed or whatever. Unlike some criminals, he is not invincible, just experienced in his job, so that you have to be inventive, of how evading punishment. (And once and for all. People, who run around in town, wearing a mask ARE strange enough to be questioned!) If it were very realistic, there would be no need for it either.
Give me a way to hold other chars, to tie them, to chop of their hands, if they stole, to let their skills reduce while in prison because of malnutrition, diseases and an unhealthy atmosphere, delete every account of a char, that i beheaded and enough players to let two of them stand at the gate the whole day and check the pictures of the known criminals and i would gladly give away any OOC mean to jail other chars. But i guess that wouldnt make you happy either.
And finnaly i want to express a wish of mine
:Dont overdo it. Tresspassing every third day is not realistic. Yelling every day over the river is simply annoying. Attacking the other side every day, is no roleplay, but boring. Especially if one scene resembles the other and comes repeatedly.
Learn, when you have lost. This is a game and there is no need to get upset, whatever happens to your char. Stay calm and do not open a new thread everytime your char "lost". I did not whine on the board everytime, when the situation was not in our favour and i see no point in doing so. There are drawbacks for criminals in this game and this is, as it should be like. Why should a criminal walk easily in a town and haggle with the shop owner? He would need to find someone, who does this secretly. But this problem, like almost every other, can be solved by IG means. But this needs initiative from your side and is not the problem of the game or your fellow players. The outlaws got a depot on their own, thanks to a fellow player of their enemies, which i consider rather strange. Instead of whining OOC, IG ideas are much more appropriate.
[Belegi]Gandela, bei uns wird nicht eingesperrt sondern kurzer Prozess gemacht. Ab die Rübe und gut ist. [/Belegi]Gandela wrote: Ich fände es sinnreich wenn der Klan der axt und/oder ein paar besondere Zwerge ebenfals, natürlich nur auf dem Gebiet Silberbrands, einsperren könnten.)
1. Your opinion.
I totally agree with those rules, but I don´t see the point. What exactly is wrong in with those rules?
2. Reasons for your opinion
Look, jailing only occours after your character has committed a crime, so you know you´re to be jailed. You could arrange a nice bit of roleplaying with the keybearers, at a given time they could hunt you, you could escape once, only to be betrayed by someone who helps you to hide... Roleplaying!
3. Suggestion for improvement
Please insert the possibility to let the keybearers jail someone in the vicinity of the jail.
4. Reason for your suggesion
So, a criminal could be brought to the prison in a RP-manner.
Keikan Hiru wrote:§1 b
The "Town Guard" is allowed to jail on "Lyrenzia Laws" / "Lyrenzia Terms".
The movement is being jailed, however they commited no crimes as defined by Lyrenzia law. Only Silverbrand declared war, the losers of the war should be delt with by Silverbrand. This jailing breaks Keiken's proposed law.Belegi wrote:Look, jailing only occours after your character has committed a crime, so you know you´re to be jailed.
My point being: We need these ooc rules to stop people from jailing whomever they please whether they like it or not.
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Caranthir the great
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Some members of the movement were jailed because they were wanted by the Lyrenzia Foundation. Have a look at the recent trials. Were all of the movement jailed?
Suggestion for improvement
Please insert the possibility to let the keybearers jail someone by his own will or if the player of the character to be jailed agrees to a stay in jail to carry out a quest.
Reason for your suggesion
This would enable some possibilities for quests.
Suggestion for improvement
Please insert the possibility to let the keybearers jail someone by his own will or if the player of the character to be jailed agrees to a stay in jail to carry out a quest.
Reason for your suggesion
This would enable some possibilities for quests.
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Adano Eles
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Hagen von Rabenfeld
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This an OOC thread Gro´bul. The movement broke all of Lyrenzias laws repeatedly. Your statement shows either, that you do not know the chars you speak of very well, or misinterpret the laws. Resistance against the word of the guard is punishable and likewise attacking the guard. Or what would the next policeman say, when i kick against this shin?The movement is being jailed, however they commited no crimes as defined by Lyrenzia law.
My point being: We need these ooc rules to stop people from jailing whomever they please whether they like it or not.
Excuse me? We need OOC rules, to make sure, my char acts always right? We discuss abot how to roleplay an jailing scene, not who should get imprisoned and who not. Dont you think it is my decision if my char jails a person or not? He has the office and if he would like, he could just jail everyone that goes on his nerves, or just for fun. This would result in IG problems but has nothing to do with OOC regulations. I dont get your point, where the OOC and IC is interwined here. If my char acts rightous is not a matter of any OOC regulations and i reserve this decision for myself, if you allow.
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Keikan Hiru
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I dont think we need such a rule, because when the jailed wants to go to jail, he/she will not complain about it.Belegi wrote:Suggestion for improvement
Please insert the possibility to let the keybearers jail someone by his own will or if the player of the character to be jailed agrees to a stay in jail to carry out a quest.
These rules are set up as a base of possible complainments from players.
Any other points I missed?
You went horribly off topic again.
Stick to the topic !
We are talking about these rules, and how to improve them before puting them in power.
We are not talking about something that happened ingame some days ago.
We are not talking about some chars and thier motivations.
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Hagen von Rabenfeld
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Keikan Hiru
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Hagen von Rabenfeld
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Why:
Because the scene, that several chars surounded a criminal, who did just ignore, that the chars didnt want him to move, appears periodically. A rule like you should not move, when you are surrounded and outnumbered would prevent people from simply walking away, as if noone would try to stop them, counting on the fact, thatit needs some seconds to type a reaction.
With shoving it is almost the same problem. You try to hold a char and all you get as a reaction, is beig shoved away. Sometimes with a "#me breaks his grip". As the char moves immidtiatelly and so is obviously to far away to hold the other, when he is shoved, this is somewhat forcing the holding player to accept, that his grip could be broken, without a chance to react. And armoured knights who get shoved by halflings with no end, is a sight, im sick of.
How:
Being hold: Do not move, when you are surounded and outnumbered. After you used a #me to escape and the other side had a chance to react, you may move. (if its is logical of course. Not if the reaction resulted in a broken nose or something)
Being shoved: Use a #me before you shove anyone and wait for the reaction, before you actually put the other char a tile away.
Example: #me takes out a thin dagger, puts its tip in the eye socket of XY and removes the eye with a loud "plopp". Press enter and immidiatelly bring some distance between you and your victim and you took the other player a chance to react. This is no joke, this actually happened to me once.
Because the scene, that several chars surounded a criminal, who did just ignore, that the chars didnt want him to move, appears periodically. A rule like you should not move, when you are surrounded and outnumbered would prevent people from simply walking away, as if noone would try to stop them, counting on the fact, thatit needs some seconds to type a reaction.
With shoving it is almost the same problem. You try to hold a char and all you get as a reaction, is beig shoved away. Sometimes with a "#me breaks his grip". As the char moves immidtiatelly and so is obviously to far away to hold the other, when he is shoved, this is somewhat forcing the holding player to accept, that his grip could be broken, without a chance to react. And armoured knights who get shoved by halflings with no end, is a sight, im sick of.
How:
Being hold: Do not move, when you are surounded and outnumbered. After you used a #me to escape and the other side had a chance to react, you may move. (if its is logical of course. Not if the reaction resulted in a broken nose or something)
Being shoved: Use a #me before you shove anyone and wait for the reaction, before you actually put the other char a tile away.
Example: #me takes out a thin dagger, puts its tip in the eye socket of XY and removes the eye with a loud "plopp". Press enter and immidiatelly bring some distance between you and your victim and you took the other player a chance to react. This is no joke, this actually happened to me once.
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Keikan Hiru
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Sorry, I fail to see a connection to our present topic.
What you are complaining about is a general lack of common sense when it comes to interact with roleplaying.
Simply report this behavior to the next best GM, we will deal with them.
I am not going to put up rules for roleplaying, remember that.
I am putting up rules for a special ability that only a selected number of players have.
What you are complaining about is a general lack of common sense when it comes to interact with roleplaying.
Simply report this behavior to the next best GM, we will deal with them.
But than again I can imagine a swift hafling escaping when surrouned from tall persons in heavy armor, by simply tunneling beetween thier legs.Because the scene, that several chars surounded a criminal, who did just ignore, that the chars didnt want him to move, appears periodically.
I am not going to put up rules for roleplaying, remember that.
I am putting up rules for a special ability that only a selected number of players have.
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Hagen von Rabenfeld
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The connection, which i should have pointed out more clearly, i guess, is that the keybearer could/should be allowed to use the key, when he is confronted with chars, that can´t be hold, whatever the circumstances and shove three chars away simultanously etc. in short disagree that their char could be caught without a paralyze spell.
If someone would really have been inventive enough to tunnel an armed person to escape, i would not use the key and give a proper reaction to show my char being surprised.
But i see that this would need alot of rules, to care about every escape possibility, so i would suggest, people are not forced but be advised not to simply ignore other chars attempt to make them stay. I tend to use the key function if all i get after a #me grabs him/her is pressing on the direction keys. That is why i wanted to have this regulated. There has been a scene when my char beat, dragged shoved and tried to knock another char unconscious, to bring him out of town, for almost 20 minutes, but even after being beaten up several times, the char always had enough strenght to walk away and hereby breaking my grip. I accept that one can´t expect that every action of one´s char succeeds but ater the fifth time or so, i would rely on the key function, that is, why i would like to see this way of using the key allowed.
If someone would really have been inventive enough to tunnel an armed person to escape, i would not use the key and give a proper reaction to show my char being surprised.
But i see that this would need alot of rules, to care about every escape possibility, so i would suggest, people are not forced but be advised not to simply ignore other chars attempt to make them stay. I tend to use the key function if all i get after a #me grabs him/her is pressing on the direction keys. That is why i wanted to have this regulated. There has been a scene when my char beat, dragged shoved and tried to knock another char unconscious, to bring him out of town, for almost 20 minutes, but even after being beaten up several times, the char always had enough strenght to walk away and hereby breaking my grip. I accept that one can´t expect that every action of one´s char succeeds but ater the fifth time or so, i would rely on the key function, that is, why i would like to see this way of using the key allowed.
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Keikan Hiru
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I must be going blind, or Lyrenzia needs to update their laws.
http://www.lyrenzia.sag-nur.de/english/rules_e.html
The town guard isn't even mentioned in these written rules.
http://www.lyrenzia.sag-nur.de/english/rules_e.html
The town guard isn't even mentioned in these written rules.
http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 813#105813
What has this to do with Lyrenzia anyway? (do not answer this question). Lyrenzia, Townguard=Ingame
Rules for jailing=OOC
What has this to do with Lyrenzia anyway? (do not answer this question). Lyrenzia, Townguard=Ingame
Rules for jailing=OOC
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Grant Herion
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I don't think escaping from someone's grasp is too much of a problem as it's just the same as being grabbed.
#me grabs the man - is the same 'forced roleplay' as #me escapes the grasp - the guard should be given a chance to react to the captive escaping, therefore the criminal should be given a chance to react to someone trying to grab him.
I don't think any of this needs to be put in rules, or that the current rules need changing anymore. Rely on someone's roleplay, and if they don't roleplay then report them as it's ooc.
[PS. If you can read this, you are not blind.]
#me grabs the man - is the same 'forced roleplay' as #me escapes the grasp - the guard should be given a chance to react to the captive escaping, therefore the criminal should be given a chance to react to someone trying to grab him.
I don't think any of this needs to be put in rules, or that the current rules need changing anymore. Rely on someone's roleplay, and if they don't roleplay then report them as it's ooc.
[PS. If you can read this, you are not blind.]
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Drathe
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With regaurds the actual capturing of a criminal, it seems a few have raised the issue of ‘forced roleplay,’ which is a fair point. The player role playing the guard wants to catch the criminal, but the player who is the crimial does not wish to be grabbed and thrown in jail. This is a tricky situation roleplaying wise to deal with and for both parties to be happy at its fair play.
My Idea is, just as there are keys to open or move blocks (for the purpouse of doors) and weapons for hitting and killing, can there not be a set of handcaffs or shackles. The town guard must hold in his hands the handcuffs where normaly would be a weapon. When arresting someone, the player would click to attack as per normal meele, the handcuffs having a random chance at hitting depending on the gaurds agility much like a sword.
If this was implimented in the game, RP can easily be played with guard and criminal chaseing and running, a scuffle when caught for the guard must be next to the person to grab him, and then a chance to escape or be captured and say paralised by the handcuffs. But it would be a fair capture or escape.
My Idea is, just as there are keys to open or move blocks (for the purpouse of doors) and weapons for hitting and killing, can there not be a set of handcaffs or shackles. The town guard must hold in his hands the handcuffs where normaly would be a weapon. When arresting someone, the player would click to attack as per normal meele, the handcuffs having a random chance at hitting depending on the gaurds agility much like a sword.
If this was implimented in the game, RP can easily be played with guard and criminal chaseing and running, a scuffle when caught for the guard must be next to the person to grab him, and then a chance to escape or be captured and say paralised by the handcuffs. But it would be a fair capture or escape.
Hm. I fear we are a bit off-topic again, but your idea is really good, Drathe. Just one thing: with handcaffs at your hands (on the back) you could still run away. It's a bit harder than running without, but if something like this is getting really implemented into the game the caught criminal should just be able to run as fast as if he would wear very heavy things. Just an idea.
And another thing came into my mind. We talk about criminals all the time. I know that the PO Hagen said this very often already, but a criminal doesn't want to get caught usually. So it's not usual for a criminal to go into town and to start a fight openly within the public or even with the town guard.
Just imagine you are a criminal nowadays. You wouldn't go into the police office, slap the next best police man into the face and wait for his action... Keikan already said that he doesn't want (and can not) prescribe one's roleplay.
Just one thing. one should think about...
And another thing came into my mind. We talk about criminals all the time. I know that the PO Hagen said this very often already, but a criminal doesn't want to get caught usually. So it's not usual for a criminal to go into town and to start a fight openly within the public or even with the town guard.
Just imagine you are a criminal nowadays. You wouldn't go into the police office, slap the next best police man into the face and wait for his action... Keikan already said that he doesn't want (and can not) prescribe one's roleplay.
Just one thing. one should think about...