Problem in The Community

Post by **Nitram** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:03 pm

I think Fianna is right.

To be honest, my point of view of the whole thing is that the staff should and will treat all players the same and only jugde them at their actions in the game and one the board.

But as far as I can see, the players don't do this. Their are groups in the community who are mean to each other. And I don't speak of language group, while the germans appear to be worser in the ooc treatment then the english ones. At least some of them. You always hear those who cry the loudest.
But the english ones have those group too. The main difference is, that the german ones pick at the others ooc, while the english ones do that IG more often. Of cause the german ones do that IG as well. And the english ones OOC as well. But thats the most common why for our two language groups. As allways, that does not fit in general too all players. Only to those who cause the most trouble.

Whats the problem in the community? Simple. Everyone is looking at the own fun and not at the fun of everyone else. Thats it, nothing more.

Nitram

Mr. Cromwell · Post by **Mr. Cromwell** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:22 pm

Shenandrea wrote:There was this flaming yes. but have you also read the appologize of a certain gm ?
instead of moaning around that there wouldn't be a fair treatment from the GM's side. well isn't it a way to react? and to remember the words which were spoken in the " the temple-threat" - if you play a bad-char you must live with the consequences. at least i know many players who would most likely see the temple destroyed at all.. and some other persons dead. yes, and i am one of these people.

You see:
I am all for rules. I love rules. Rules are what makes the game playable, however; I want those rules to be same for everyone. Those who oversee the rules should strive to be impartial and fair as they wield a pretty awesome power to mess with things. They should be fair and impartial under all circumstances as much as possible. You are not talking about some characters here, but OOC-game authorities. So what if players want the temple to be destroyed? Honestly? That should happen then? Before you congratulate yourself for that clever post, I am forced to point out that it's mainly nonsense. As for the gamemaster, he said:

Too be honest: I hate the temple. I hated it as a player and my resposibility as a quester yet hasn't changed a thing about this.

And I seriously doubt that his feelings in regards to the matter would have been changed over the apology.

So what if I play a thief, murderer or a shoe-polisher? The gamemasters should not be the ones who start dishing out the consequences. Why? Because that's completely, totally, utterly out of character influence on the gameworld, and it would just mean that the loudest crybabies (who coincidentally happen to be germans) have their way every time.

the situation would be the same for german'evils' like you call them. same as above, if you play a bad char - a thief, a murderer, a black mage or what ever i don't care about - you must live with the consequences, that one day someone is stronger than you, you'll get imprisoned or murdered by someone else and this is just a fact, you all may have overseen.

The underlined part is silly again. No, it is not a fact. When you are strong, rich and well connected enough, you walk away from crimes. It happens everywhere and that is a fact. If there is no-one strong enough to get them, then that is a reality of the game and maybe it is you who should learn to deal with that and not the players of the bad guys. Bad guys have been the underdogs many, many times over the time I've been here. If the tables have been turned, maybe its time to dry the tears and deal with the change of situation. You want gamemasters to start acting as the 'criminal-catchers'? Well, I want them to start tearing down these german guilds because they haven't met their stronger ones yet, just to opress everyone equally. If you are consistent with your opinion, then you should have no problem with that, because everyone meets their stronger evetually and is destroyed, or whatever it was..

i think everyone here gets the same treatment regardless of what land the person may come.

I was pretty sure all along, but this just confirms that you don't really know what you are talking about. And how could you? As you basically are member of the 'aristocracy' and have not had to look at the things from a different point of view (or alternatively are simply ignorant). If the peasants don't have bread, why don't they eat pastries and all that.

Connections are everything in this game. Most of the things happen or don't happen because someone knows someone. When people speak the same language or know eachother for real, this does make them act differently towards eachother. Just so you know.

And when you say that you want the gamemasters to start doing the character's work ingame, you are basically saying that you want a situation where the characters of people with/without connections are going to be treated differently IG by the GMs. And if you really want that, then..

There hasn't been a large enough roll-eyes emoticon invented for me to comment on that.

ogerawa · Post by **ogerawa** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:50 pm

Yea... basically we are just being selfish, wants to have our fun while playing but never care whether the other side have their fun or not as long as we have our own fun. Even after saying this, i think that some would still just try to get their own fun to the fullest just because they can.

As for english/german thing.... we already have a gap, stating something by generalizing it to english/german will only make the gap even wider. If it's only a person/small group, might as well state them rather than calling them english/german cause not every english/german are like that.

For the quest maybe, the GM can post what is their job in the quest eg. monitor, help the quest like breaking doors etc.

And for the others, wait until the quest is done before you complaint about unfairness, unless you can predict the future and know what will happen. If there is unfairness during the quest, then we can discuss it after the quest is done and take appropriate actions i guess.

@edward:
Sarcasm isn't exactly going to bring you any closer to fairness. It might even upset the GM even more and purposely do things unfairly. I'm not saying the GM will, but don't tempted them to do so. You are like trying to give them every reason for them to do things unfairly. Also, try to say things nicer (not sarcasm nice as well).

Mr. Cromwell wrote:

the situation would be the same for german'evils' like you call them. same as above, if you play a bad char - a thief, a murderer, a black mage or what ever i don't care about - you must live with the consequences, that one day someone is stronger than you, you'll get imprisoned or murdered by someone else and this is just a fact, you all may have overseen.
The underlined part is silly again. No, it is not a fact. When you are strong, rich and well connected enough, you walk away from crimes. It happens everywhere and that is a fact. If there is no-one strong enough to get them, then that is a reality of the game and maybe it is you who should learn to deal with that and not the players of the bad guys.

i'm not sure what you were trying to say... since somehow i think you are actually repeating what she said.... which is someone stronger will get the criminals. In the quest wise, it would be those who are trying to get their revenge to the temple people (if they win then they are stronger if not then the temple walks away once again i guess).

Mr. Cromwell · Post by **Mr. Cromwell** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:59 pm

Actually, I was trying to insinuate that 'the problem' is an IG one, and there is no reason to get the Gamemasters involved by tailoring a quest for one group, which will determine if the group can continue or not (because when the gamemasters themselves took the stones away, they thus de facto confirmed that the temple is simply another player group). That's unfair. If no one is strong enough to get them in game, while playing fair.. too bad. That's a nasty IG problem, but just too bad. If the temple is made an example of, then all the other established groups should have to endure equally ridiculous trials as well.

If the gamemasters are going to do things intentionally badly because of my sarcasm, then we probably shouldn't really even worry about that. Why? Because if that is sufficient reason.. well, anything would be.

Noradur · Post by **Noradur** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:17 pm

the quest is not about destroying the temple.

And for the others, wait until the quest is done before you complaint about unfairness, unless you can predict the future and know what will happen. If there is unfairness during the quest, then we can discuss it after the quest is done and take appropriate actions i guess.

I have a little problem right here:

the whole quest concept is reasonable and fair, and only aimed to entertain players, not to scare them away.

Unfortunatley i am not able to prove it right now, because it would spoil all fun and suprises if i tell you what exactly is my plot concept..

but you will know that it IS fair and well balanced, especially you, eddy.

Fianna Heneghan · Post by **Fianna Heneghan** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:18 pm

Nitram wrote:I think Fianna is right.

I liked that so much, I just had to repeat it.

ogerawa · Post by **ogerawa** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:21 pm

towns = players group
the temple = players group

what i'm trying to say is... if you can accept that towns can be raided... why not the temple? About the GM part, i'm not so sure why the GM is involved (which you are so dislike) in this case. We will have to wait until he reply i guess. The one that I know of, there is someone (not GM char) gathering people to take down the temple.

If you know more than that, again please enlighten me

Mr. Cromwell wrote:If the gamemasters are going to do things intentionally badly because of my sarcasm, then we probably shouldn't really even worry about that. Why? Because if that is sufficient reason.. well, anything would be.

Well, the sarcasm won't be enough reason on its own. But if you read the other thread, where he's accused of something. Adding another thing that will upset him, might be the last push that's needed.

EDIT:
wooppsss the GM replied when i was typing my message xD

Noradur · Post by **Noradur** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:23 pm

pleaaaaase just wait for the quest to come and post after its done.

Lrmy · Post by **Lrmy** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 4:47 pm

Noradur wrote:pleaaaaase just wait for the quest to come and post after its done.

That's what I'm doing.

@Ogerawa
You can raid the temple...

By the way...

The temple doesn't cosider anyone as on another side. They don't consider they're even on a side. And in the last six months... Dain has intentionally killed less than 6 people(Duel killings happen -,-).

Also, the version of the temple we have now has never made any attack against any group of players, never kidnapped anyone, all our works have been more/less internal. Sure the members have done things..meh... I was planning on posting this on that locked thread..but here worked.

Korm Kormsen · Post by **Korm Kormsen** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 5:33 pm

cromwell,

there is one tiny difference between the temple and the mentioned "german guilds"
the latter can exist, without hurting outsiders.
the temple, by its very nature, can not.
and, it is logical, that playing "bad" without doing bad would be boring.

i was thinking (not for the first time) about these problems, that tend to surface every couple of weeks, get heated up, till they reach the state:"you of the other language are to bleme" and get stopped by closed threads.

the main problem is, we are playing different games on the same map.

i think we got three main groups.
first, the "pure" roleplayers. they don't give a shit about everybody else, as long, as they are not interrupted in their lovestories, getting pregnant and singing to the moon. (yes, i AM sarcastic)
they are more or less even distributed between german and english speaking.
then there are the more action oriented players. they powergame, but mainly to build up their chars (skillcap, stats, colourX are frequent words)
at the other extreme are the more economical thinking players. they powergame, but just to earn enough money or materials for their goals (i am one of those)

if one reads more, than only the illa forums, then it should be obvious, that it is nothing accidental, that the action oriented are more among the english speaking players, and the economical thinking players are mostly those, who talk german.
the numbers of games sold in the different countries shows it very clear:
the more economical games or constructing strategie are more sold in the german speaking countries, than in the rest of the world, while in the US every kind of action is a sure seller.
(i even dare to say, that the idea to make a game, just to see if it is possible to build something good, is typical german)

so, we got different groups, and they are partly identifiable by their language.
these undeniable facts let us two options: bitch or think.
i opt for thinking.

the first, the purist roleplayers do not need nothing, what they have not got, for their style of play.
the economic-players do need one thing most, for their style of play: a stable ingame enviroment.
the action-players need one thing, to have fun from the game: victims.

well, i think, by now everybody understood, that "roleplayers" and "economists" are not very happy, if they have to serve as victims.

so, in my opinion here is the starting point, where we all together should start to think. (best in a constructive way)

the question, we have to answer would be, how do we produce victims for the "actionists", without pissing off the two other groups?
.

Taliss Kazzxs · Post by **Taliss Kazzxs** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:05 pm

It seems to me that everyone is making a mountain out of a mole hill and this matter shouldn’t be a problem in the community at all. If I was told for some reason the staff decided to remove the playable race, Lizardmen and they choose to get rid of the ones currently in game through means of a quest then I wouldn’t piss and moan about it but try my best to make the ending of my chars story as interesting and as well played as possible. The way I see it as the staff is letting us play and we should be thankful regardless of what that role is. I also see it as the staff has already decided on there agenda and are going to go through with it, meaning there is nothing one can do about it aside from making the best of the situation and going along for the ride. It seems to me that posting about the quest is pointless and if its doing anything its just causing more conflict than already exists.

pharse · Post by **pharse** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 6:59 pm

I assume the problem for some players of 'bad/evil' chars is that they play 'bad/evil' chars only. I dare to say that those piss off most people, because they simple don't know anything of the other side.

Same for those players of all-time 'good' chars who have no idea of an 'evil' RP. I dare to say that those are most pissed-off.

I am neither in the first nor in the second mentioned group, so it is just an assumption.

Pellandria · Post by **Pellandria** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:15 pm

@ Pharse: Thats only part of the Problem, it may be just what people think what good and bad roleplay is..or what good and bad people should be, being a "good" Char is fairly easy if you think about it, don't attack people out of the blue, get a straigth story and stick to what they believe.
But a bad Char is far more complex and this is exactly where the current "baddies" play a strange role, on outsiders they never show mercy, don't know what friendship is or why you should spent time with speaking instead of just killing them off, untill now its allright, but now something happens that a thron in my eye, as soon as they are in their "group" they suddendly turn "good" chars, they are friendly, go hunt with each other sit near bonefires and talk, go fishing, it just seems they don't stick to they principals and this is where the pissing off starts.

The simple fact, atleast it eems so, is that the baddies only seem to be bad to piss others off, if you play someone without mercy and who hasn't any sense of frienship or love than stick to it and don't beginn to play a normal Char, when you are among your "group", the same is that most of the baddies "show off" against outsiders and this is what most "good" Chars can't unterstand, as you know that some of these can deliver a quiete good rp, but they simply won't.
Its a pretty hard piece to play a bad Chars and untill now I can't really see any good played bad chars in Illa.
It all looks like "Hey I'm in the mood to play a bad behaviour now" then from one to the other second they are incedible bad and next day they are friendly again, that just isn't fun.

Noradur · Post by **Noradur** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:21 pm

i think thats pretty right.. i have played so much different kind of characters...
good and evil and now
i dont like the idea of stereotypical evil/good.

everything you do must have a reason what makes you do it. growing up between moralic definitions of justice motivates you to stand for it and be a knight, but can also make you an extremist with brutal methods.

growing up between murder and crime makes you a criminal yourself in most cases but can also make you fight it, because you experienced the suffering and hopelessness.

as long as its reasonable, its good roleplay, imho.

Avalyon el'Hattarr · Post by **Avalyon el'Hattarr** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:35 pm

Again, sorry that i don't read all the psots, i jsut read what pops into my eyes.

So the answer about stereotype "evil" char player is this: I don't play only avalyon!

You may be amased but I also have played a paladin, a priest, and now i play a good char of what i don't want to say more at this moment.

pharse · Post by **pharse** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:15 pm

I didn't mention some persons in specific or a group in general on purpose, I assume it fits for 'some'.

@PO Pellandria: Actually I didn't aim at 'good' roleplay, rather what 'good' chars have to get through and suffer from constant stress caused by 'evil' chars, including OOC. And same for the other side.

Fianna Heneghan · Post by **Fianna Heneghan** » Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:23 pm

I wonder if part of the problem might be complaining about one another? How productive is it to criticize each other? Maybe it would be better to show shining examples of good rp in game rather than say that others don't do it right on the forums? It's an old argument ... and frankly one I'm tired of seeing in every single thread.

Werner von Mintraching · Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:45 pm

Mr. Cromwell wrote:
think about to accept it or to find an way out to them who will make an end to your "blackstone cult".
Now that the stones were taken away, I don't see there any reason for the gamemasters to 'end' the temple, more than any other random group of players.

Wher did i talk from the gamemasters?
I hope to find a way with the players of the Blackstone Cult together if they want but it cant go on that they keep on be pain in the as to the most players.
There for thers got to be a solution.
Like in the real world there would be a solutiton if any smal group make any bigger group angry and ill find a solution for the these Probem i would prefere to do it with you to gehter and with the player acceptence then without. But it will work shure without!

It was actually sarcasm, and I'm glad someone figured it out without any smilies. The point was just to upset as much of the german speaking community as possible. Wink

Thats the diffrence between YOU and me!
You try to upset some one in cause you dont speak thems language.
I do not care for your language, your skincolor your religion, sex or sexpractics as long that you know to respekt the others.
The text you written let me gues you denunciate the german speaker in that way as you told by your selve.
Is it your way to show respekt?
Do you think whe find a solution TOGETHER to have fun in FUTURE if whe try to upsed an other?
Or cant you behave diffrent?

I hope whe can behave with more respekt in future.

@Cromwell
By the way it seams also an problem of the comunity that some people takes only one batch out of an whole text they dislike didnt read the text ready use a lot of phantasy to answer later things no one have written.

Werner

Vern Kron · Post by **Vern Kron** » Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:11 am

I agree with Korm's comments, not about how germans are economical and US is the slashers but... ok, here is how I see it. About 80 percent of the people are fighters of some sort. About 40 percent of the fighters are also involved in crafting. The other half just sell their stuff to those who will buy it. That leaves about twenty percent of the population as workers.

Now if what Korm said is true, then when all this fighting and stuff is going on, then those twenty percent of people are thrown into an unstable enviroment when they can npt really work well...and I mean that like whole towns not being able to visit due to fighting. So they are kind of cut out and vicitimized more by the fact that they aren't really able to defend themselves. ((and by slashers, I mean mages in there too))
I see two groups of people fighting, and one group getting the crap beat out of em and stepped on by atleast one of the other groups. That is my two cents...now I will try to think of a soulution to that.

Lrmy · Post by **Lrmy** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:11 am

Korm Kormsen wrote: if one reads more, than only the illa forums, then it should be obvious, that it is nothing accidental, that the action oriented are more among the english speaking players, and the economical thinking players are mostly those, who talk german.
the numbers of games sold in the different countries shows it very clear:
the more economical games or constructing strategie are more sold in the german speaking countries, than in the rest of the world, while in the US every kind of action is a sure seller.
(i even dare to say, that the idea to make a game, just to see if it is possible to build something good, is typical german)

Ask a GM to look up the highest skilled players in the game for fighting, crafting, and magic. I bet none of them are American. I know this actually.

Julius · Post by **Julius** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:18 am

Thats because most Americans have quit. We used to have the strongest fighters on our side (Kamik, Salathe, Arameh, Stephen, and Roshi).

Greisling · Post by **Greisling** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:22 am

I mostly agree with Korm. Nice explanation.

Furthermore I want to comment on something:
I have the impression that some of the POs of Temple members (or POs closely related to the Temple) still do not try to think about their actions; I have the impressoon that some of them hardly reflect what the consequences of their actions are.
Many of their actions - no matter if done under the flag of the Temple or as individuals - seems to be little planned but being done out of a clear blue sky.

Comments like: "I have not read the all the postings here but do comment anyway" indicate a different attitude to this affair and underline my impression.

Finally:
Right, the current strength of the Temple as well as the political situation in game are a prodcut of Roleplay.
Still, since those players seem not to be able to use their powers in an adequate way (overall inactivity; blue-sky-acting; abusing the character strengths), interventions of the GMs seem nothing but reasonable.

Lrmy · Post by **Lrmy** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:36 am

@Julius:
Arameh was not American.

What is the problem with the temple?
It has less than 6 active members.
Only Avalyon is not easily beaten.. No decent mages are.

Please mention the other problems.

Korm Kormsen · Post by **Korm Kormsen** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:40 am

Julius wrote:...most Americans have quit. We used to have the strongest fighters on our side.

no comment necessary.

Lrmy · Post by **Lrmy** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:41 am

Korm Kormsen wrote:
Julius wrote:...most Americans have quit. We used to have the strongest fighters on our side.
no comment necessary.

Please don't judge Americans because of him

Julius · Post by **Julius** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:43 am

Korm Kormsen wrote:
Julius wrote:...most Americans have quit. We used to have the strongest fighters on our side.
no comment necessary.

Our side of the world! Not like it's a battle of the continents!

Dantagon Marescot · Post by **Dantagon Marescot** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:49 am

Lrmy wrote:
Korm Kormsen wrote:
Julius wrote:...most Americans have quit. We used to have the strongest fighters on our side.
no comment necessary.
Please don't judge Americans because of him

/signed

Julius · Post by **Julius** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:58 am

what a n00b

Noradur · Post by **Noradur** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:58 am

stop spamming.

Julius is not that wrong. I looked up the most skilled fighters active this week.

And the most skilled are american or british.

then comes a long list of NPCs between and after that there are highly trained german characters.

Korm Kormsen · Post by **Korm Kormsen** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:09 am

Lrmy, Dantagon,

yes, you are right, that might be unfair.

Noradur,

(/spam)