Curiosity

[martin]

@Niniane (I don't have much time, so I'll keep it short):
Of course it's not (only) the "good intentions" which stand behind the france or german government. I never believed that. And there are even two more terrible examples: russia and china, which both kill innocent people, which both do not respect human rights etc. etc.
None of these countries os against this war only because of their good nature. This might maybe be ONE aspect of some of these countries, but it's far from being the whole truth. The keyword we are talking about is "money", again and again.

But, and that's the point: I really believe that this war could have been avoided. What about troops from all over the world being stationed around iraq and watching out for "rule breaking" in iraq? What about weapon inspectors searching for weapons and what about the USA cooperating with them (instead of hindering them, as they seemingly did)? What about trying to get other (arabic) countries to work together with them (the international community)?

Nothing of that happened, only a little point of that was tried (weapon inspectations), however, they got (intentionally!) wrong information of the US government etc. etc.

What I believe is: The US government WANTED war, because it's better for them for several reasons. They did not want to free iraqi people (and, as it looks, iraqi people do not want to be "freed" by the USA...), they are not interested in improving the health care or the situation in this country. That's really none of their interests. It's not even weapons of mass destrucion, there is no link to the 9/11-attacks.

I still think that this war is WRONG, because they did not try EVERYTHING to avoid it. And even if they would not have broken international law I would think it is wrong. Dead people do not care if they were killed in a "legal" war or not.

Martin

[Gro'bul]

martin, you obviously beleive everything on tv. you dont know if iraq had anything to do with it, and guess what, neither do I! but there is a chance that they did. for all we know it was all saddam getting revenge for the gulf war. your right, we could of tried other things. but in the 12 years we did nothing did anyone else try anything??? aparently not besides the easily avioded inspectors.Well, russia and china are not our countries and right now havent provoked the US in anyway. Sure we want money, who doesnt! But i doubt we'll make back 72 billion dollars overnight. Also, we dont care about their medical treatment? ive seen our soldiers helping wounded civilians and pow's! they are probobly getting more food then they did from their own country.then again i dont see anybody else trying to help them so they are no better! that is besides the always and usuall food and medical supplies from the UN. We wanted to overthrow a crual nutcase who bought gold weapons and killed his own people cause he felt like it! so we did just that. unfortunatly like in every war people die

[martin]

martin, you obviously beleive everything on tv.

As I said: You are too stupid.

Martin

[martin]

Also, we dont care about their medical treatment? ive seen our soldiers helping wounded civilians and pow's! they are probobly getting more food then they did from their own country.

WHY THE HECK DID AMERICAN SOLDIERS WATCH PEOPLE PLUNDER HOSITALS, CHILDRENS HOSPITALS AMONGST THEM, AND DIDN'T DO ANYTHING BUT PROTECTED THE MINISTRY OF OIL?
WHY DID THE TROOPS CUT POWERLINES AND WATERPIPES WHILE IT WAS DAMN HOT THERE AND LEFT THEM WITHOUT WATER AND ELECTRICITY FOR DAYS? WE ARE TALKING ABOUT CIVILIANS, ABOUT CHILDREN! WE ARE *NOT* TALKING ABOUT SOLDIERS!

YOU tell ME that I believe everything on TV?
You little kiddie tell me that?

I'd ask you not to post anymore, my head starts hurting when I read your stupid postings.

Martin

[Crocket]

Illarion Rules:

3. Insults

All insults directed at the person behind the screen, and not the character, are frowned upon, and will not be tolerated. Neither will all racist and/or sexist remarks.

[Caranthir the great]

@Niniane

Argh - too.. long.. text..

If Saddam was soo dangerous and you are really so interested about the Iraqi people (read people, not oil) why didn't you support the armed rebellions around Iraq which happened in the end of the (first) war?
Your governement did encourage these actions to be taken by the common Iraqi's but no support (but moral, which doesn't really help to defeat a tank with stick) was given by US governement.
Your troop weren't doing anything back then, how the heck did Iraq become so dangerous now?
Needless to say that the rebel was crushed and tens of thousands of people were murdered.

Why do I care?
I care because I think that any offensive war is bad, without excuse. Because the innoncent will suffer the most, the children, wifes, mothers, fathers. I saw (was it gro bul's comment?) something like 'We are only killing soldiers blah blah' Hey? Isn't that enough? Doen't you realize that they are humans too? Being a soldier somehow takes away the value of your life? Alright, their job is dangerous but yet they are like you and me, they have mothers, sisters, brothers, friends and people who will miss them.

Also I think that America as the worlds only superpower should be example to others, a fine damn example it is now. Hell with the UN, we are US, we do what we want regardless that 75% of worlds people oppose the war! In god we trust! Freedom! God bless the oi..! Erm.. God bless america.

Yeah? Well if your nation continues with that attitude, you can go to hell.
Just to let you know, you are not alone on this planet.

-Player of caranthir who is pissed.

[Niniane]

Martin

As we were told. The Iraqi government was turning off their own power and consequently their own water supply in Baghdad before the US troops entered the city. They also would not allow the civilians to leave the city during certain hours so as to use these civilians as human shields against the American army who was advancing. We did not turn off the power and water in this city, they did. That is what we are told and there have been no reports to indicate that anything else happened here. You may have heard that we did it, but we have heard that they did it. Who is to say who was lying? No embedded reporters have come out and said directly and publicly that the US soldiers cut their water or power supply. I was not there so I cannot tell you what happened for sure, but neither can you say with 100% certainty what happened.

I have a question for you. How did the US government hinder the U.N. weapons inspectors? I know that our government may have exaggerated on a few claims or made some false claims about their weapon stores but as of yet the news here has yet to report on us directly hindering the U.N.'s weapons inspectors watching Iraq. We have been told and it seems rather truthful for now that the Iraqi government were the ones hindering the UN inspectors. They (The Inspectors) were only allowed to search for these weapons in certain areas by the Iraqi government. This allowed the Iraqi government to hide any weapons they may have had outside these inspection 'zones'.

No, the US has not found any large stores of 'Weapons of Mass Destruction' yet. We may never find them. They may not have had them. That was 'our' main reason for going to war as was presented to the international public but it has not been proven as of yet. I don't think this really matters.

The US tried to go through the U.N. Iraq stalled and stalled and passed their deadline. The countries that came forward to prevent the war had very obvious and previously discussed reasons for trying to prevent the war. The US went on ahead and invaded Iraq. The other methods you proposed that this might have been handled would not have worked. Asking other Arab countries to aid anyone who wanted to invade Iraq would not have worked. If you have not heard. The 'Iraqi TV' channels had been feeding the Iraqi civilians as well as most of the Arab countries with false information. They have been lied to for years about what has happened within that country and there was no reason for them to start believing a group of outsiders about why they should help liberate Iraq. After this 'news' source was cut off and the truth came forward there was a state of shock within the common people. They had to digest the truth for the first time and seemed to be taken aback. That doesn’t even bring into account the natural hate for people who look different than ones self. As for a union of nations surrounding Iraq and watching for violations, remember that there are many world powers (Germany, China, France, etc.) that would not support this because they had been making billions of dollars from Iraq in recent years and would not want to stop this influx of cash just as they did not support any invasion of Iraq.

I totally agree that it's a terrible terrible thing that so many innocent people died and will continue to die for the 'liberation' of Iraq but this was going to happen at some point. You had a dictatorship who was torturing citizens, murdering it's own people for amusement and suppressing the majority of the population by brute force. Sooner or later there would be an uprising that could have killed millions of people who wanted a better life. Now, the US has killed a few thousand (awful!) but when you consider what has been happening and what could have/would have happened this is a very small number of lives that were sacrificed.

You say that the Iraqi people did not want to be liberated and that the US has not tried to establish basic amenities to their people once again such as water and electricity. As it is now the Shiite Muslim majority in Iraq wants to take over and control the country in a similar way that Saddam had done. The US is trying to install a government made up of all factions of the peoples of Iraq. The Iraqi people (many but not all) are happy to have been liberated but fear US occupation. They don't understand that our government and military do not want to control them but to protect them (which can seem like controlling them for obvious reasons). Our soldiers are still being shot at so it's not easy to walk the streets to establish order and to give them back that which they need. Power, water, food etc. There are a very few who are doing this shooting and such but a bullet is a bullet and they are cautious. We want the government we support made up of Iraqis to be the ones to reestablish order and well being to the people. Even though the 'war' is over. The real war has just begun. We (the US) must now prove that it was right to do what it did. The only way to do this is to have the Iraqi people be happy with the government that is installed soon. Because there is no law or any force of law within the country now our soldiers will remain to help this upstart government survive in its early stages. If we did not stay then any rebel group could easily overthrow it and send the country into a downward spiral that could last centuries. Our military support is seen by some in that country as occupation, which causes protests, riots, and the like because some see it as imperialism. That we are trying to take over their country. This is obviously not the case.

@ Caranthir

I know the instance which you speak and I cannot defend what the US did back then. Under the orders of President Bush (Not George Bush Jr.) our military supported a popular uprising and told them that they would have our military support. As soon as it began our military for one reason or another left Iraq. Some say it was because our military ran out of money. Others say it was because we did not want to become involved in house-to-house warfare, which would have happened. Anyway. The point is that that was in the past and this is today. That was under a different president. That still does not excuse the happenings but you have to realize that was in the past and not now. That is not what is happening now! It was tragic nonetheless.

You along with others claim this is a war for oil? Have you listened to Blair and Bush go on and on about how this is not about their oil? How after this war is over the Iraqi people will be given control of their oil and it will not be pumped over to the USA. It will instead be used to rebuild Iraq. The only decline in price in crude oil that the US will experience as a result of this war is that the restrictions placed on Iraq will be lifted (not just for the US but for all countries involved!) and this will cause the price of oil to decline slightly.

Why did we go in and try to secure their oil fields when the battles began you ask? This is very simple. The Iraqi government who cares so much about their people had rigged explosives in their own oil fields. Our military sent special operation forces into these fields and disarmed these explosives and thus saved the IRAQI people billions of dollars. They prevented a MAJOR natural disaster from occurring. They prevented oil fires from having to be extinguished, which would have lost many lives.

Why didn’t we rush into these hospitals to save the people inside you ask? Another simple answer. There were tanks. There were soldiers. There were massive piles of ammunitions found in other hospitals in Iraq. Our soldiers were there to liberate Iraq but not at the cost of rushing into traps blindfolded. If their army was hiding in hospitals and schools then of course our army is going to be hesitant to rush into these types of places. It may seem like we don’t care about the civilians but any human being would. Our soldiers and citizens are people first and Americans second. Too many individuals forget this. This war was a terrible thing and killed very many who should not have died. If it did not take place they may be alive today. But what about tomorrow? The next day? No. With that regime in place many more than any US bomb or war could kill would have died for no reason at all. Just take a look at their national Olympic committee. They killed athletes who did not win, their coaches, their families.

Something had to be done and it was. For better or worse it has been done and is still being done. You can’t change the past but you can change the future. Find a way to help those who you say are being unjustly harmed. Don’t just stand idly by and let atrocities happen. If you do another Saddam will come along and there will be another war you don’t like but don’t do anything about.

If you were wondering. No I did not support the war but I did support the removeal of Saddam from power.

[Senk Kluuspointe Gren]

I thought the power and water ceased because the civilians that worked in these stations fled to their homes to hide from the fighting. Lets face it, if there were thousands of soldiers battling in the streets of your town and bombing of buildings, would you want to risk going to work?

[martin]

Illarion Rules:

3. Insults

All insults directed at the person behind the screen, and not the character, are frowned upon, and will not be tolerated. Neither will all racist and/or sexist remarks.

Thank you, I know the rules.
I saw my remarks only as objective statements, not as insults.

Martin

[martin]

As we were told. The Iraqi government was turning off their own power and consequently their own water supply in Baghdad before the US troops entered the city.

I wasn't talking about Baghdad, in fact I don't know what happened there. I was talking about e.g. Bashra.

How did the US government hinder the U.N. weapons inspectors? I know that our government may have exaggerated on a few claims or made some false claims about their weapon stores but as of yet the news here has yet to report on us directly hindering the U.N.'s weapons inspectors watching Iraq.

* The US government said that they know places where such weapons were hidden, but they cannot tell that to the UN weapon inspectors.
* The US government gave some hints to them where to find something. They did not even find tiny hints which point to former weapon factories there.
* The US government *faked* documents which should prove that iraq bought nuclear material from nigeria and handed out these (faked) documents. It turned out later, that these documents were "produced" by the CIA and not even the signatures on it were a good copy.
* The US government gave them less time then they asked to have.
* Hans Blix, the chief weapon inspector, critizised the behaviour of the US government many times. He told that Bushs administration wrongly claimed that the iraq had been caught cheating.
* The inspectors told that there was much preasure from the US government urging them to draw a negative conclusion regardless of what they found or will (not) find.

As for a union of nations surrounding Iraq and watching for violations, remember that there are many world powers (Germany, China, France, etc.) that would not support this because they had been making billions of dollars from Iraq in recent years and would not want to stop this influx of cash just as they did not support any invasion of Iraq.

Just in fact there is a doubt:
Which country, do you think, profited most of the iraq?
Hint: I don't think that it is one of europes countries...

And, by the way: It is true that these motivations exist, I do not doubt that.
But reducing everyone who is against a war to this argument, you are trying to neglect reality. *I* do not have any financial interest there, nor does my country.
And, just to mention: Currently, there were UN embargos against iraq. So non of these countries did sell something to iraq. There was just oil for food.

That we are trying to take over their country. This is obviously not the case.

Probably (hopefully) not in a military sense.
But in an economic sense, it seems to me as if they are trying to take over the iraq. Just look WHO got the commision to build roads there.

You along with others claim this is a war for oil? Have you listened to Blair and Bush go on and on about how this is not about their oil? How after this war is over the Iraqi people will be given control of their oil and it will not be pumped over to the USA.

I don't believe them.
Therefore I ask again and again:
Why did they protect the ministriy of oil, but not the (childrens) hospitals?
Why did the US troops just look at people plundering the hospitals but hindered them from plundering this ministry?

Why didn?t we rush into these hospitals to save the people inside you ask? Another simple answer. There were tanks. There were soldiers. There were massive piles of ammunitions found in other hospitals in Iraq. Our soldiers were there to liberate Iraq but not at the cost of rushing into traps blindfolded.

I never ever heared that interpretation.
Can you provide us with sources?

Besides that, it sounds somehow improbably to me.

If you were wondering. No I did not support the war but I did support the removeal of Saddam from power.

As I said before: The sooner he's gone the better it is!

But one should ask HOW this should be done.

Martin

[Roke]

I'm just wondering and I am just speculating here but...

There are companies who are going to help rebuild Iraq. These companies will train people to do there jobs, and probably get a cut of the profits for training them. I would be willing to bet that there are none, or very little companies from France who will be helping to rebuild under those circumstances since the US wants to organize the rebuilding, instead of the UN.

I have no proof, I am just wondering what some of you think.

[Bloodhearte]

Argh! For the most part, Gro'bul, what Martin said is correct. I think you're just buying into the pro-American propaganda that's spouted to us for an attempt to create a baseless feeling of nationalism.

Go figure. I know that not everything the U.S is doing is awful, but they're not doing the best things either...

I suppose Big Brother Bush and the Ministries of Love and Peace will get a hold of the world, and bend it to their will.

[Hermie]

I think this post should be closed. This is the forum for a medieval fantasy game. There is a place for polotics, this isn't it. Further arguing will just cause arguments as everyone has their own opinions, and probably saw the war from different perspectives. I too have my opinion on the war, I won't state it because this isnt the place to do it. Also we caould say anything about the war and so on, it won't make a blind bit of difference to what happens, not written here anyhow.
Calm down, this is getting too deep. I think this thread should be closed to stop everyone from getting too wound up.

[Senk Kluuspointe Gren]

I think this post should be closed.

And the English are always right, well, most of the time.

So could the moderators please kill this thread as it's causing too much controversy on this forum.

[Caranthir the great]

And the English are always right, well, most of the time.

Now my genuine bullsh*t-detector hasn't reacted this much since I heard Bush speaking on Tv last time. Congratulations.
I see no reason why politics could not be discussed here. Politics are most interesting subject, if you feel that you cannot contribute anything to the conversation, then don't.
However, I found this debate very amusing and interesting.
The mere fact of how much people have participated on the discussion shows that they think that this IS important, this is far more important than any 'cool avatars'-discussion in my opinion.

Also, suggesting that you are right by claiming that you are right most of the time, which side of the englishmen were right, the (proclaimed) majority that opposed the war or the (proclaimed) minority that were for it?

-Player of Caranthir.

[Gro'bul]

martin, if your trying to act like the smarter one why exactly are you resorting to senseless insults. Anyway, why are we not giving other countries contracts to rebuild Iraq. BY far the most obvious question yet, if your going to spend billions and risk your own people's lives are you accually going to throw away what little profits you can make by giving it to people who dont support you, basically hate you, and didnt lift a finger when your people were dieing? this discussion is just going in loops. And martin, you cant speak for your country. Neither can i for that matter! Talk about who's buying to the propeganda, from the sound of it your buying in to your own countries propeganda ,or however its spelled .

P.S. if your going to insult me, try to make it worth my time to read, because its not very offensive.

[Hermie]

Gro'bul, not all the Iraqi's hate the Western countries (mainly US and so on). But if you are going to wage war on a country and harm its civillians, you should at least have the decency to clean it up before you go. If the Forces left Iraq in a state of anarchy don't you see it would cause more hate? The US and other countries are trying to re-build Iraq into a democracy, instead of having a dictator. And that will solve the problem the Allied Forces fought for. Hope that helped.

[Gro'bul]

when did i say the iraqi's hate us? i was talking about the european countries (with the exeption of england,poland, and a few others) i dont really know what your talking about hermie, we are trying to clean it up, oh and about the plundering. the people were taking back what was mostly theirs, we are trying to aid the local police but trying to make them enforce the law rather than us so their is less hate tward us. There was alot of unjust plundering, but we couldnt do much about it. some thousands of troops can only control so many of the millions that live in the cities.also something i find odd, all the countries that want to help rebuild want contracts and money or no deal. of course with some exeptions.also im not saying they dont hate us.

[Hermie]

Sorry Gro, I understood you wrong then. Whoops Sorry.

[Yakin]

Here the new private chathouse?????

[Gro'bul]

i guess i didnt accually state who i was talking about, no problem.

[Roke]

I guess there is a feeling of, hate right now but that is because they are disagreeing with the actions your country was (is?) taking. People, in general fear change unless it is controlled by them. In some ways, they try to avoid this change as much as they can.

In the long term, this discussion will be good for all involve. People were allowed to state their oppinion on a very contriversial matter and argue with others about which oppinion was probably the right one. Yes, it was heated at times, but in the end everyone will probably have learned a little more (I know I have) and become more knowledgeable than before.

[Gro'bul]

i would have to agreee with that, i hate change usually.

[Hermie]

Roke, that sounded like the end of an episode of South Park You know, I learned something today, it doesnt matter who you are or where you are from, as long as you all get along. Hehe. But more seriously, there is no wrong or right opinion. The only things wrong or right are the true facts, and who can say they know them all?

Look after yourselves, aaaand each other. Goodnight.

[Mishrack]

You all talk about how you want to see an end to Saddam and how you're glad either way that he's been taken down from power and so on. But do any of you fools realise the U.S. cares less about killing or bringing to justice Saddam? Think of Osama Bin Laden a while back - the U.S. needs to use them for further endeavours to blame them and use them as scapegoats in order to justify their invasions and rampages. You all also forget that no matter how many times you may condemn Saddam he was put there by the U.S. initially, so instead of saying "U.S. is not perfect, everybody makes mistakes" or "At least they got rid of Saddam one way or another" is all besides the point. Saddam Hussein was put in power by the U.S. government, the U.S. also sold weapons to Iraq, they also endorsed in Saddam's conquests, until they used Kuwait as an excuse to attack Saddam. Why the Hell do you think Hussein survived the first Gulf War.

[Bumbol Woodstock]

Saddam lived through the Gulf War because we were not out to defeat Iraq. We did not want a war, we only wanted to defend Kuwait and we did.
We did not put Saddam in power, he killed the president in the late 70s and with his army took control himself.
The "scape goat" Osama Bin Laden was the first to successfully attack America. Of course we will kick his ass and everyone elses' who attacks us.

[Mishrack]

Of course, and I am sure you will agree Castro has destroyed Cuba aswell...
Though he has taken a country which was basically a US Mafia holliday resort, and turned it into the most efficient country in South America, aswell as put the US education and health systems to shame.

Let me guess, you ye're going to point a mighty finger of shame, and scream out communism?

just do not say jfk was a great man...

[Gro'bul]

hehe, castro, funny you metion him, i still wonder why hes in power. i think its because hes old, smokes, and is about to kick it soon and we dont want to waste the money. besides castro isnt such a bad guy, he provides cuban cigars! (which i hear are pretty good even though i dont smoke )

[Roke]

Do you realize Cuba has a higher literacy rate and better health care than the US despite all the restrictions the US have put on them?

[martin]

I was curious about the literacy in cuba and the USA.
According to the CIA's world factbook (2002), we have:
Cuba:
male: 96.2%
female: 95.3% (1995 est.)
total population: 95.7%

USA:
male: 97%
female: 97% (1979 est.)
total population: 97%

But even if your claim is not perfectly true, it's at least almost true.

Martin