Roleplay or Persona Play?

Irania · Post by **Irania** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:35 am

Ira has done it. But no one saw but the flies. Oh it feels so good to admit it!

Domitrio · Post by **Domitrio** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:38 am

BWAHAHA 2-3 times? But I saw you do it at LEAST 3 times to Arcia, and then that would mean you NEVER did it to Nilo! Come on Kasume, fess up.

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:39 am

Domitrio wrote:BWAHAHA 2-3 times? But I saw you do it at LEAST 3 times to Arcia, and then that would mean you NEVER did it to Nilo! Come on Kasume, fess up.

Fess up?

I think someone may be exaggerating.

Domitrio · Post by **Domitrio** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 4:45 am

I think someone's trying to hide the fact that he didn't train up enough before an elf was whoopin' on him! And that's not to mention the midget. ANYWAY can we get back on topic?

Konstantin K · Post by **Konstantin K** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 7:09 am

Yay! I got flamed, I got flamed!

I didn't render myself invisible, just starting to become transparent, vague, then again more opaque, to show that messing with my char is dangerous. I haven't even used the word invisible.

I didn't say I ever swum! I said i roed a little wooden boat which is parked at the lighthouse. btw, whoever told you that there are no depots in the north?

Silverbrand has a door with a lock. No one says it's not unlockable

On Topic: Persona Play is great, but it hurts my feeling. That's why I vote for de-attachment from the character.

Darlok · Post by **Darlok** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 7:37 am

Invisibily is a impressivly strong spell/ability.
Alone this can make a Super-Character out of a normal character.
Not even mages have mastered this ability, so why should a thief be able to do it ?

You should not use the argument "My god Ronagan gave it to me.",
this is not true unless a GM confirmed it.

On the other side, playing such things like becoming invisible, or even partialy invisible or transparent is absolutly impossible because for each character that comes on your screen you would have to type:
"#me is (partialy) invisible/transparent." (Or enter the word you used.)

In conculsion I can only say:
As long as a GM does not grant a character a special ability they are all bound to the things that every character can, even if the player does not want it and desperatly tries to be superior to others (Indication of Persona Play)
If the GMs think you can handle invisibilty, transparency or glowing in the dark, than they will allow your char to do so.
As we all know the GM Chars can go Invisible, so it is technicly possible for other chars too.

To Persona Play:
Persona Play is not only shaping your character after yourself and let your character basicly act like you would, it is also a strong personal attachment to your character which is very very dangerous.
If something happens to your character you take it very personal like a slap in your face, making you want to take revange in whatever way possible, legal or ilegal doesnt matter much to you then.
Of course the other way is also very common on persona play, someone makes you angry, be it on the boards or in real life and you seek out his characters and attack them, or make thier digital life harder, without any direct reason for your character.

So Persona Play is something everybody should avoid like a open flame, it does not only hurt yourself but also others.
Listen to the words of others from time to time and try to see yourself and your characters from a neutral point and check if they are maybe right.

Konstantin K · Post by **Konstantin K** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 10:19 am

A GM who was leading my char - in fact did confirm my appointment as a Priest of Shadow God, but I faithfully played my role, partially in secret from most others. I was, however, too modest to push my luck with GMs and never asked for any extra features.

When I was granted a feature, I honestly reported on how it's working out.

This is the first time I used an optical illusion effect in my RP, because my IG supervisor did that, and when that person left, I took the place.

But I see Darlok's point, and now as i look back, I guess I could come up with something better. I already see several options how I could have my character escape the hard choice he was given.

Irania · Post by **Irania** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 10:21 am

That is very rational thinking.

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 5:34 pm

Dyluck wrote:So, I'm confused here. Which one of you is the one saying that Darlok played a successful bad guy not because of GM powers? And if so, then what's stopping you from following along similar lines to play a bad guy?

I think he played very well, GM powers or otherwise.

What's stopping most players from playing such characters is probably the 10x skill raise thing from over a year ago. Let's face it, people take seriously a character who can kick butt and take names, so having SOME kind of skill to back it up isn't a bad idea.

The PO Darlok said that he, at first, tried things out with monsters then with members of the Grey Rose. At that point, he got bored of training Darlok, and gained his mastery skills at fighting through character vs. character conflicts only (which would be a very, very nice thing to do rather than powergame with monsters).

@K - Because a GM confirmed that you were a Priest of a Shadow God, you can use something like an "invisibility spell." Not logging out, but hiding in the building area and appearing after a short amount of time has passed.

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 7:42 pm

Galim, why did you want to kill Konstantin so much if your dwarf is peaceful? Why would you not roleplay with him getting away in a cloud of smoke?
About Konstantin becoming a priest of Ronagan, that is completely correct, he had told Grant numerous times of him almost gaining that power and other powers.
And Darlok must have gotten gm ablities because I remember Hermie and Bummy fighting him and beating him royally. But then a little while later he had some uber strength like Grant did for a couple of days.. I also think Zerbus got a push in his magic resistance cause I remember Elaralith paralisising and nearly killing him easily, then a few weeks later Grant tried to paralize him and couldn't even slow him. But that was completley off topic, anyways I think my point will be that to roleplay an evil character you really do need a lot of money and a lot of powers. Otherwise John Irenicus or Galim will just show up and kill you and you will not be considered a threat and no one will roleplay with you.
So be like Darlok, play the game for 3 years and ask the GMs for some sort of kingdom and a lot of powers.

ps- I do not buy that fact that the town guard has hundreds of invisible guards, it is unfair, the Movement was larger then the town guard it should have had thousands of invisible members I could call on.

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:01 pm

oh yes, for someone like you logging of with the command "#me wraps his cloak around him and dissapears in a cloud of smoke" in the middle of rp is really good roleplay, huh?

Galim is peaceful, as long as you don't make him really angry. And he is peacful until he have to defend or fight for something in what he believes and what is important for him. peacefull doesn't means that he is Ghandi. it means that he don't go around and search a possibility to fight. or that he is a evil guy or something like that.

and grant, stop writing when you know nothing. before we attacked karmane he entered the town many times and many times we threw him out and gave him warnings. one day it is enough. our characters don't play that game forever.

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:04 pm

Grant Herion wrote:But that was completley off topic, anyways I think my point will be that to roleplay an evil character you really do need a lot of money and a lot of powers. Otherwise John Irenicus or Galim will just show up and kill you and you will not be considered a threat and no one will roleplay with you.
So be like Darlok, play the game for 3 years and ask the GMs for some sort of kingdom and a lot of powers.

I feel that's kind of a problem for players who want to play baddies. Unless that character has two-hundred something shades of "slashing weapons" brilliantly flashing, nobody will take that character seriously, not consider him a threat, and not roleplay with him. That problem alone makes the game rely on skills way too heavily for roleplaying to happen.

If Darlok really had GM powers (which he may not have had), I have no qualms about that. Again, if he didn't have any technical powers, he would've been defeated on the first day, and the very idea of Northerot would've never came to mind. That would've made the game terribly boring, relying on combat skills to prevent roleplaying outcomes.

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:09 pm

I dunno about Northerot never coming to be, Darlok did have a larger group of supporters in the Movement and the Bloodskulls in the beginning.

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 8:58 pm

Bloodhearte wrote:
I feel that's kind of a problem for players who want to play baddies. Unless that character has two-hundred something shades of "slashing weapons" brilliantly flashing, nobody will take that character seriously, not consider him a threat, and not roleplay with him. That problem alone makes the game rely on skills way too heavily for roleplaying to happen.

I still find that a contradictory answer. You obviously admire Darlok's success as not because of GM powers equivalent of "two-hundred shades of slashing weapons" that you apparently didn't think he had, so why should the lack of fighting skills stop you from being like him? Or do you think his measly above average fighting skills made the difference against 50+ people, and will do the same for you and other baddies?

If Darlok really had GM powers (which he may not have had), I have no qualms about that. Again, if he didn't have any technical powers, he would've been defeated on the first day, and the very idea of Northerot would've never came to mind. That would've made the game terribly boring, relying on combat skills to prevent roleplaying outcomes.

Yet, didn't you just say bad characters need fighting skills to be taken seriously? So when bad guys use combat skills, it's called what? "Facilitating good roleplaying"? But when good guys react back with combat skills, it's called "preventing roleplaying outcomes"? Bad guys need fighting skills, but the good guys shouldn't use them?

Don't take offence, I don't necessarily agree/disagree the opinions of anyone here, but I just seem to find the justifications for your particular stances to be a bit contradictory and confusing.

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 9:41 pm

Dyluck wrote:I still find that a contradictory answer. You obviously admire Darlok's success as not because of GM powers equivalent of "two-hundred shades of slashing weapons" that you apparently didn't think he had, so why should the lack of fighting skills stop you from being like him? Or do you think his measly above average fighting skills made the difference against 50+ people, and will do the same for you and other baddies?

I failed to mention a few details.

In the days before he (might've) gotten powers, he didn't rely on skills to get the job done. This was admirable, as he still stirred up conflicts without having to train hard.

But this doesn't mean that he wasn't skilled. I remember, when playing Vahkos, an orc pushed my character and Darlok told him to stop. The orc pushed him as well so Darlok walked up to him, typed #me strikes and the orc was killed in one blow. This happened long before Northern conflict, where he supposedly had superpowers. I'm sure he wasn't no Muten Roshi or Zerbus, but he was pretty darn good.

From what I was told, he mostly gained his good fighting skills from conflicts with other characters, and I believe, that's how a fighter should get good, rather than powergame on monsters. Unfortunately, this is no longer possible because of the 10x barrier.

Dyluck wrote: Yet, didn't you just say bad characters need fighting skills to be taken seriously? So when bad guys use combat skills, it's called what? "Facilitating good roleplaying"? But when good guys react back with combat skills, it's called "preventing roleplaying outcomes"? Bad guys need fighting skills, but the good guys shouldn't use them?

Don't take offence, I don't necessarily agree/disagree the opinions of anyone here, but I just seem to find the justifications for your particular stances to be a bit contradictory and confusing.

I'm not saying 'good guys shouldn't be skilled' and 'bad guys should' here.

The number of good guys ALWAYS outnumber the baddies, and therefore, always get their way. Everytime a supposed bad guy comes along, the ONLY way they'll seem to succeed in their goals is to get more skilled (or others more skilled) in swordplay than the toughest of the good guys; simply because, the players of the good guys usually leave no room or loopholes for the players of the opposing characters. Technical skills are the only way to go. Everything is 100% impenetrable.

But if they don't kill tons of people, they won't be taken seriously. Or at least that's what I've been seeing.

Edit: So, in theory, it is possible to play an impressive bad guy without being very skilled. But this means you'll have to fight GREAT played characters by experienced roleplayers to be taken seriously, otherwise you're just going to be called "village idiot weakling" by every other clod.

But if you can play it well, AND have the skills to back it up, you won't have to worry about the other clods you see. Everybody equally sees you as bad and serious.

Caranthir the great · Post by **Caranthir the great** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 9:43 pm

Could you disclose what you mean by 'Taken seriously"?

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 9:51 pm

@ Caranthir -

For example:

(Good played bad guy without good technical skills scenario)

Bad guy says dialogue.
Good guys want to kill him.
A battle ensues, and of course, bad guy is defeated.
Good guys call him "weakling," "fool," "no threat," etc.

Then in the RPG boards, same insults by good characters, "weakling," "fool," "no threat," and so on and so forth.

He is now ignored and beaten up on a daily basis.

(Good played bad guy with good technical skills scenario)

Bad guy says dialogue.
Good guys want to kill him.
A battle ensues, and of course, a good guy is defeated, other good guys are intimidated.
Bad guy continues plans as good guys are forced to plot something else besides swordplay.

Then in the RPG boards, there is negotiation and politics trying to stop the bad guy.

He is now considered a threat and can't be beaten up on a daily basis.

Konstantin K · Post by **Konstantin K** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 11:24 pm

Bloodhearte wrote:@K - Because a GM confirmed that you were a Priest of a Shadow God, you can use something like an "invisibility spell." Not logging out, but hiding in the building area and appearing after a short amount of time has passed.

I used to, but a GM specifically asked me not to do that, even though I am able to blend in with shadows, because it is considered a technical weakness of the game. Before I was asked no to - I would move along the walls all the time, because that's what rogues do.

What I don't understand, is why players are not allowed to fire an arrow out of the shadow? That is the only way a weak character can attack from an ambush. Someone creeps in the shadow of a building at night, and fires a silent shot into the neck, an arrow, a bolt, a dart out of a bamboo stick, whatever...

We need to have day and night implemented, so that shady chars know when they can come out. Night could be implemented like in Tibia - with tny thin black stripes covering the screen like a net.

Is it technically possible with this client?

@Bloodhearte's last post:

Don't have to go far for examples of "weakling idiot thing". As you try to rob someone in the desert or elsewhere, on the road, you RP putting a knife to someone's throat and holding their waist, and they just walk away saying something like "Don't make me laugh and leave your robbery fantasies, dreamer". Same idea. If you don't PK them - nothing gets done.

Konstantin K · Post by **Konstantin K** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 11:29 pm

Galim wrote: and grant, stop writing when you know nothing. before we attacked karmane he entered the town many times and many times we threw him out and gave him warnings. one day it is enough. our characters don't play that game forever.

Mind you, karmane entered town peacefully with weapons down, with intentions to use resources and talk to people. He never attacked anyone in town until after guards started throwing him out. The town's side started the attack first.

@Dyluck:

Darlok was a good RPer, because he always used #me commands, had classy style, was cunning. But I guess what people are trying to say is that GM powers did aid him in that. His RP was supported by the fact that people could not PK him. Archers with 238 Distance weapon were firing at him and could not hit him. He killed most people in one hit, kind of like Muten Roshi. But Muten Roshi was a 100% fighter, no magic stats. Darlok's stats were evenly distributed.
Darlok used his powers well, with good RP. But he was in control of the situation on the island all the time throughout his story.

Not every evil character is completely evil, not every character wants a big black castle and an army. Some characters are just confused, some are sinful, some are philosophers, con-artists.

And when a con-artist is trying to sell you a sword, saying it's magical, will you believe him? The seller will RP "The sword starts to glow", but you know OOC that it's just a standard skeleton sword and it doesn't really glow. Will you buy it?

Muten Roshi always told people about his magic sword. Most people's reaction was "Really? Show it?" He showed a skeleton sword, and people went "Ah, that... nevermind". What the hell? I never did that.
Always asked him questions about how it works, what it does, what's the origin. (I guess that's why he stopped showing it

)

Some characters are secluded, working alone, "do-it-myself" kind of guys. They usually don't have a chance, unless powergamed.

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Wed Aug 11, 2004 11:58 pm

We need to have day and night implemented, so that shady chars know when they can come out. Night could be implemented like in Tibia - with tny thin black stripes covering the screen like a net.

Is it technically possible with this client?

I believe this was mentioned before. And no.

Mind you, karmane entered town peacefully with weapons down, with intentions to use resources and talk to people. He never attacked anyone in town until after guards started throwing him out. The town's side started the attack first.

Stop it right there. And take it to the RPG forum please. I surely hope that wasn't a complaint.

And when a con-artist is trying to sell you a sword, saying it's magical, will you believe him? The seller will RP "The sword starts to glow", but you know OOC that it's just a standard skeleton sword and it doesn't really glow. Will you buy it?

Muten Roshi always told people about his magic sword. Most people's reaction was "Really? Show it?" He showed a skeleton sword, and people went "Ah, that... nevermind". What the hell? I never did that.
Always asked him questions about how it works, what it does, what's the origin. (I guess that's why he stopped showing it )

In my opinion. I would likely play it up. But considering that there ARE glowing fireswords now, I would question about doing it anymore. The fire weapons aren't actually on fire. They simply glow of red with heat coming from them. Flaming swords is a bit silly.
Even though I would play it up, I wouldn't play it up too much. Especially in a world like Illarion. Especially with people shooting fire balls from their hands and freezing people at where they run. And ub3r speedy dagger flinging rogues that go invisble and can hide from anything in a big town such as Trollsbane with citizens up at all hours. Which explains imaginary gaurds. You need them because well, a town like Trollsbane WOULD have gaurds on watch at all times. But because of RL problems, people can't be on at all hours of the day. And *most* criminals are American, as most gaurds are German. Meaning different times of when gaurds can be out keeping an eye on people.

I used to, but a GM specifically asked me not to do that, even though I am able to blend in with shadows, because it is considered a technical weakness of the game. Before I was asked no to - I would move along the walls all the time, because that's what rogues do.

What I don't understand, is why players are not allowed to fire an arrow out of the shadow? That is the only way a weak character can attack from an ambush. Someone creeps in the shadow of a building at night, and fires a silent shot into the neck, an arrow, a bolt, a dart out of a bamboo stick, whatever...

It was discussed a while ago about the walls of the buildings hiding your number and character. GMs stated that it was NOT shadows. And is actually against the rules to run behind a building wall to hide. They are NOT shadows in which a place to hide.

Some characters are secluded, working alone, "do-it-myself" kind of guys. They usually don't have a chance, unless powergamed.

That's the problem. People like you pound the fact that you *have* to powergame to be a bad person. In which you DO NOT. There are other ways to Role Play being evil without violence. You just have to think of them. Creativity, as was said before.

Konstantin K · Post by **Konstantin K** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:44 am

And is actually against the rules to run behind a building wall to hide. They are NOT shadows in which a place to hide.

Well at night, buildings do in fact tend to have shadows, especially on one side. I think they are fun things to use, as long as you don't do what players like Aradhul did - hide, then peek out and attack, then hide again, and shout insults. If you shout, they find you by your voice and surround the building. Once you hide, you hide and stay quiet until they are gone. And of course, no combat except shooting.
Of course when you try to stay behind building and use war axe - that's wrong.

That's the problem. People like you pound the fact that you *have* to powergame to be a bad person. In which you DO NOT. There are other ways to Role Play being evil without violence. You just have to think of them. Creativity, as was said before.

Yeah, like playing a prostitute, or an unfaithful wife, or a thief, or a seductor, or, well, a manipulator, making other people kill each other. In any event, when your time comes to pay - you better have some defense skills.

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 1:53 am

Well at night, buildings do in fact tend to have shadows, especially on one side. I think they are fun things to use, as long as you don't do what players like Aradhul did - hide, then peek out and attack, then hide again, and shout insults. If you shout, they find you by your voice and surround the building. Once you hide, you hide and stay quiet until they are gone. And of course, no combat except shooting.
Of course when you try to stay behind building and use war axe - that's wrong.

At the moment. There is no day or night times that are actually set and used by everyone at the moment. Mostly because of the huge time differences between certain players. So, you can't really say that you're hiding in the shadows of a building like that.
I find it quite irritating to find people who can aim a bow with dead aim and be swift and hide immediatly afterwards. It does not matter, you're going to be seen no matter what you do. Shooting a bow is not the most simpliest thing in the world. Elf or not.

Yeah, like playing a prostitute, or an unfaithful wife, or a thief, or a seductor, or, well, a manipulator, making other people kill each other. In any event, when your time comes to pay - you better have some defense skills.

You made absolutely no sense with that one.

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:57 am

Kasume, I know your spam-reading skills are limited (cheap shot) so I will make Konstantin's last paragraph more simple. He is saying that no matter what kind of bad guy role you take, you will need combat skills in the end. If your a manipulator and have other people fight for you, eventually someone will betray you and will attempt to kill you, (cast and point Darlok and Grant, he was manipulating Grant and slowly giving him less and less powers while Grant still fought for him, if Darlok didn't have great combat skills Grant would have beaten him by sheer numbers). If your a theif eventually someone will catch and want your head, you will need to be able to defend yourself. Point is everyone needs to know combat skills in this game either that or be super rich and be able to buy bodyguards that log on whenever you are on to protect you at all costs.

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:21 am

Or do you think his measly above average fighting skills made the difference against 50+ people, and will do the same for you and other baddies?

So your answer is "yes" then? You believe Darlok managed to make the difference because a single man had some above average fighting skills that somehow beat some of the best fighters around?
Well, I'm a little skeptical then.

You cite Darlok as a perfect example of a sucessful bad guy almost fanatically, (seeing as how you know his combat history like the back of your hand, which I don't even know why you keep bringing up), who you thought didn't have powers, and yet your plight is to say that bad guys need more power to be taken seriously. That seems to be contradictory, until you bring in the middle ground of saying that what Darlok had and baddies can't get now, is some above average fighting skills. But then that would mean you would have to accept the rather silly conclusion made in the paragraph above, which I think many people would be quite skeptical of.

So basically what I'm trying to say is that it's rather skeptical to believe that fighting skills made the difference in Darlok's case, but if you abandon the "fighting skills" belief, you would also have to abandon either the belief that he didn't have GM powers, or the belief that you need more fighting skills for your bad guy, in order for your arguments to be consistent with each other.

If you still choose to stay with the skeptical choice, I'll leave it at that, since the victims of one-hit deaths etc already have more to say about that than I.

Konstantin K · Post by **Konstantin K** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:12 am

Kasume wrote: I find it quite irritating to find people who can aim a bow with dead aim and be swift and hide immediatly afterwards.

Well, that is why you have people with 18 agility and 18 dexterity.
Read skill descriptions posted by a GM in Newbies board.

If you have maximum dexterity:

"You are more nimble than anyone you know. You can use your fingers to make filigree tasks with ease.
If you are able to see them, you can shoot the fleas from a dog's back with your sling. "

If you have maximum agility:

"You are the fastest runner ever encountered, able to outrun even some animals during your hunting days.
If the sky began falling on your head, you have a great chance to dodge even this. "

I think a character with such attributes and with ideal eyesight would have no problem sneaking up from behind the corner, firing an arrow, and quickly disappearing even before the arrow hits its target.

Kasume wrote:It does not matter, you're going to be seen no matter what you do.

Not if town guards have perception 3, which guarantees nearly no eye sight and almost a complete absence of hearing.

Read description:
If you have 3 perception:
"You are blind as a mole, your view ends 1 meter in front of you. Even then, you have difficulties recognizing things and persons.
You are almost unable to hear, unless someone is shouting in your ear. "

Now tell me, HOW in the world these blind guards recognized a man dressed as a merchant, who is swiftly moving in the market croud among dozens of other merchants?

More then that, how can these guards see a man hiding behind a building, aiming at them. They are sitting ducks and shouldn't be guards!

If these stats are not respected, then give me back my potion-making ability. But hey... my char will never be able to read, or sit in the library, and he hates books, because his intelligence is 6.

He will never be able to resist magic or lead people into battle. He is weak willed and unsure of himself, and I RP that all the time. But hey, let's respect his advantages.

Kasume wrote:Shooting a bow is not the most simpliest thing in the world. Elf or not.

That's why you train your character for months until you become a Grandmaster Archer. After firing out 10 000 arrows, 20 000 wind arrows, and 5000 crossbow bolts, I think firing a bow becomes a simple thing after all. Practice makes perfect.

Flame me.

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:25 am

Not if town guards have perception 3, which guarantees nearly no eye sight and almost a complete absence of hearing.

I don't even know my Kasume's stats. How would you know the gaurd's?

That's why you train your character for months until you become a Grandmaster Archer. After firing out 10 000 arrows, 20 000 wind arrows, and 5000 crossbow bolts, I think firing a bow becomes a simple thing after all. Practice makes perfect.

Take this situation as an example.
The gaurds are standing around a fire with their hands held in front of themselves to keep warm. They're talking lightly in the chilly night as the streets are pretty empty. Large men all huddled standing over a fire. There is a building about behind them. The murderer, or archer, has his back against the northern wall of the building. Suddenly, he jumps for an attack. Now most likely, the gaurd to the east and south of the fire is going to notice the quick movement of the archer. The archer will take aim in a quick motion and strike the northern gaurd. As he falls into the fire, the gaurds immediatly look up (if they aren't already due to the amazing perception that they *may* have) and see the figure move behind the shadows. Then is when the gaurds are allowed to start chasing.

Now I've made this really crappy picture for anyone who doesn't understand.

I seriously doubt that anyone can shoot an arrow blindly, and have no trace of the arrow immediatly after impact.

Konstantin K · Post by **Konstantin K** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:40 am

Huh? I mean, seriously - huh?

That's an awesome picture, but a very situation-specific scenario. A real sniper would be no fool to jump out and attack a group of non-blind men by the fire.
He would just fire an arrow into one of them perhaps, from around the corner, peeking out with one eye, hugging the wall.

He would not stand open to them, with his back to the wall that faces guards. He would be around the side wall of course. Plus, who sees whom is again a matter of perception versus agility. It's not necessary that they will see him if they aren't good enough.

It's pretty sad to not know your own char's stats. You can't really be a good judge then, I guess. If you have low perception, you can't play an all-seeing person.

I spoke to some of the town guards personally and they told me their stats. Most if not all of them are maxed on four stats: Constitution, Strength, Agility, Dexterity. That would define something like: Big fast strong blind brainless hulks. I will not name any names.

Kasume · Post by **Kasume** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:50 am

That's an awesome picture, but a very situation-specific scenario. A real sniper would be no fool to jump out and attack a group of non-blind men by the fire.
He would just fire an arrow into one of them perhaps, from around the corner, peeking out with one eye, hugging the wall.

That's quite impossible. I'm sorry. Peaking one eye? That's a bit ridiculous. Maybe if he had a modern sniper rifle. But not a bow and arrow. Or crossbow at that matter. Simply not enough room for it to launch and aim.

He would not stand open to them, with his back to the wall that faces guards. He would be around the side wall of course. Plus, who sees whom is again a matter of perception versus agility. It's not necessary that they will see him if they aren't good enough.

He's on the NORTHERN wall. Not the east.

It's pretty sad to not know your own char's stats. You can't really be a good judge then, I guess. If you have low perception, you can't play an all-seeing person.

I spoke to some of the town guards personally and they told me their stats. Most if not all of them are maxed on four stats: Constitution, Strength, Agility, Dexterity. That would define something like: Big fast strong blind brainless hulks. I will not name any names.

I don't keep track of my character stats mostly because I don't to play strictly on them. There ARE intelligent warriors. Look at orcs.

You knowing the gaurd's stats. That's... sort of sad now. You're going to be targeting the ones you know who you can easily take down due to knwoing all of their stats. In sticky situations, you may deny it now, but you will do it.

Now we'll here no end to the "((You have 4 perception!! You should only 'blah blah blah!'))" That can be irritating.

But we aren't really arguing about anything anymore. So... I think I'm just about done. Untill there's something new to talk about on this thread.

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 3:52 pm

Its irritating when someone tells you your perception is poor and you need to play by the rules Keikan set up? Then you shouldn't be playing this game if you play your character with only his advantages at heart. Just because players with bad perception literally can see as far as anyone with good perception doesn't mean that players with the bad perceptioned character shouldn't roleplay the rules, because then you ARE persona playing, you are so attached to your character you are thinking, "oh well, I know Kasume better then anyone, he really can see well despite I didn't put any perception levels into it when I made him". It would be best, to stop this hulkamania we have in this game, by making the screen of view smaller for people with bad perception, but i doubt that is possible at the time, but it would deffinetly stop people from making monster characters.

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:30 pm

Dyluck wrote:
Or do you think his measly above average fighting skills made the difference against 50+ people, and will do the same for you and other baddies?
So your answer is "yes" then? You believe Darlok managed to make the difference because a single man had some above average fighting skills that somehow beat some of the best fighters around?
Well, I'm a little skeptical then.

You cite Darlok as a perfect example of a sucessful bad guy almost fanatically, (seeing as how you know his combat history like the back of your hand, which I don't even know why you keep bringing up), who you thought didn't have powers, and yet your plight is to say that bad guys need more power to be taken seriously. That seems to be contradictory, until you bring in the middle ground of saying that what Darlok had and baddies can't get now, is some above average fighting skills. But then that would mean you would have to accept the rather silly conclusion made in the paragraph above, which I think many people would be quite skeptical of.

So basically what I'm trying to say is that it's rather skeptical to believe that fighting skills made the difference in Darlok's case, but if you abandon the "fighting skills" belief, you would also have to abandon either the belief that he didn't have GM powers, or the belief that you need more fighting skills for your bad guy, in order for your arguments to be consistent with each other.

If you still choose to stay with the skeptical choice, I'll leave it at that, since the victims of one-hit deaths etc already have more to say about that than I.

Yes, I believe it can make a difference, if you have "measley above average fighting skills." Especially when you have help from rotworms.

I would hardly say I cite his good badism (?) to a fanatic point, and I would hardly say that I know his combat history like the back of my hand when I only listed a few instances in which my character was teamed up with him.

I bring up these instances as proof that he DID have the ability to beat up guys, even if he wasn't perfect. But at the same time, he didn't strive to kill everybody in sight and powergame, just enough to back up the role. Do you get it now?

I'm saying, that now, it's rather difficult for baddies to even get these "good but not perfect" fighting skills without having to train on monsters. Skills should only be used to back up a role. Simple. I was hoping it was possible to gain these "minimal" skills through character conflicts only, but unfortunately, it isn't because of the 10x barrier. So now characters have to train outside of roleplaying context.