How does the "atmosphere" of Illarion feel like?
just to remember you
How does the "atmosphere" of Illarion feel like?
Moderator: Gamemasters
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Estralis Seborian
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I have to object in a way - not only the engine should promote trade. Us players should! I mean, for what do you collect all that silver? Hoarding? For what, next itemwipe? In old times, people had plenty money. I remember many, many scenes where people bought useless stuff or sent noobs with a hatchet to the woods for a generous salary. Because they could afford it. Nowadays, I see people crafting all the time with little to no profit margin.
But what I want to say is: Do your share! Reconsider becoming a dwarven fletcher when you can trade crossbows in exchange for gold ingots or pans.
But what I want to say is: Do your share! Reconsider becoming a dwarven fletcher when you can trade crossbows in exchange for gold ingots or pans.
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Harald Hradradr
- Posts: 240
- Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:15 pm
Forget it, Estralis. Crafting is not rewarding at all and gets 'boring' after a while. What I mean is... most people just do not WANT to play a simple crafter. You have a lot of players that try everything and do everything mainly for testing it. But as soon as it gets harder people will stop and concentrate on something else.
Just one of the problems a crafter has: Usually only high end stuff can be sold to players at all, since all the other stuff is obtained or learend quiet easily. High end stuff but needs to be high end quality also to find a buyer for it at all. Most play fighters, mages, adventurers. They fish all day to get these friggin maps and just go on some treasure hunt and come back as rich people. Is there anything one could NOT find in a treasury? It is absolutly easy to get past the guardians. Just have 1 mage, he can do ANY map by himself. Just create a wall around himself to be safe then cast firewalls and let these guardians die. Please!? What is that? Intended?
After the usage of this tiny bit of mana there is all these nice things to grab. A ton of silver, the finest jewelry, the finest armory the finest weapons. For all this stuff a crafter would have to make a lot of goods and actually SELL them (no crafter ig could even produce a few of these things that treasures wield).
So, why would a player(character) pay a lot of coin for a high end product that a MASTER crafter would have to spend a few days to produce?
With having high end and high quality stuff handed out so easily nobody really cares for crafter except a very few role player for roleplaying reasons.
The next problem is the coin. It is rediculous easy to get coin through plain fighting and there is virtually no way to spend it. The last option got kicked out with the new building rules. Basically there is not much one would need since most things are FREE. A char could survive just fine without spending a single coin ever.
Next problem is the quests. Not really a problem, though, since quests are always a nice addition. Nontheless, having a crafter myself he actually is out of the play concerning quests. Why? All quests are about fighting creaturs. Lots of fun for adventurers, mages and fighter types but... crafter? What is there for them? They are excluded when staying true to the role. And what reward would they get? A sword? Come on!
Just a few copper...though, have more to toss in.
Just one of the problems a crafter has: Usually only high end stuff can be sold to players at all, since all the other stuff is obtained or learend quiet easily. High end stuff but needs to be high end quality also to find a buyer for it at all. Most play fighters, mages, adventurers. They fish all day to get these friggin maps and just go on some treasure hunt and come back as rich people. Is there anything one could NOT find in a treasury? It is absolutly easy to get past the guardians. Just have 1 mage, he can do ANY map by himself. Just create a wall around himself to be safe then cast firewalls and let these guardians die. Please!? What is that? Intended?
After the usage of this tiny bit of mana there is all these nice things to grab. A ton of silver, the finest jewelry, the finest armory the finest weapons. For all this stuff a crafter would have to make a lot of goods and actually SELL them (no crafter ig could even produce a few of these things that treasures wield).
So, why would a player(character) pay a lot of coin for a high end product that a MASTER crafter would have to spend a few days to produce?
With having high end and high quality stuff handed out so easily nobody really cares for crafter except a very few role player for roleplaying reasons.
The next problem is the coin. It is rediculous easy to get coin through plain fighting and there is virtually no way to spend it. The last option got kicked out with the new building rules. Basically there is not much one would need since most things are FREE. A char could survive just fine without spending a single coin ever.
Next problem is the quests. Not really a problem, though, since quests are always a nice addition. Nontheless, having a crafter myself he actually is out of the play concerning quests. Why? All quests are about fighting creaturs. Lots of fun for adventurers, mages and fighter types but... crafter? What is there for them? They are excluded when staying true to the role. And what reward would they get? A sword? Come on!
Just a few copper...though, have more to toss in.
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Avalyon el'Hattarr
- Posts: 1492
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One of the main problmes of not having trades is because people are, like I said earlier, jack-of-all-trades.. so a smith will never be a pure smith, but a smith-miner-lumberjack-carpenter-cook-tailor.. why? because unlike the real life, it doesnt take a life time to become a master of one trade and while you are 'perfect' in one, you'll always remain like that, no matter how much new information you push into your brain.
EDIT: very good post Harald, I really enjoyed reading it
EDIT: very good post Harald, I really enjoyed reading it
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Harald Hradradr
- Posts: 240
- Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:15 pm
Not too easy to come by that one, Avalyon.
See, there is no 'miner' at all except those that try to get their 'digging' skill up a little for digging treasures. Mining is... mh, well the most boring activity right beside lumberjacking.
This also means that nobody really will be a 'true' miner speaking in terms of a trustworthy and long time supplier of ore. The smith has no chance actually but to mine himself (especially gold nuggets seem to be rare). Laughable also that it is way more easy to get cut gems through fighting than through mining and then cutting them.
Same goes for handles of various sorts. People that order something expect it to be finished within seconds. Tell them, that they will have to wait a few days for their sword or hammer and you lose them. So, you will have to make these handles yourself as a smith or store a large quantity of them...somewhere (when you find a new carpenter dumb enough to work days and days for a 100 handles each).
Same goes for dyes. You either spend a few weeks finding somebody who could make them or... just make them yourself after spinning a few sibanac leafs to thread or making fabric out of whool. Or just buy it from an npc. Mind you, end products are too easy found elsewhere than it was an option for the crafter to let the customer wait a few days.
See, there is no 'miner' at all except those that try to get their 'digging' skill up a little for digging treasures. Mining is... mh, well the most boring activity right beside lumberjacking.
This also means that nobody really will be a 'true' miner speaking in terms of a trustworthy and long time supplier of ore. The smith has no chance actually but to mine himself (especially gold nuggets seem to be rare). Laughable also that it is way more easy to get cut gems through fighting than through mining and then cutting them.
Same goes for handles of various sorts. People that order something expect it to be finished within seconds. Tell them, that they will have to wait a few days for their sword or hammer and you lose them. So, you will have to make these handles yourself as a smith or store a large quantity of them...somewhere (when you find a new carpenter dumb enough to work days and days for a 100 handles each).
Same goes for dyes. You either spend a few weeks finding somebody who could make them or... just make them yourself after spinning a few sibanac leafs to thread or making fabric out of whool. Or just buy it from an npc. Mind you, end products are too easy found elsewhere than it was an option for the crafter to let the customer wait a few days.
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Avalyon el'Hattarr
- Posts: 1492
- Joined: Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:42 pm
- Location: Heaven and Hell
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I agree compleatly and is exactly what I ment with the jack-of-all-trades.. it's true that some choose to powergame all skills because they have nothing else to do, or because they want to be able to produce every item in the game, but most of the crafters are forced to be so because there is little chance for them to find either one of those rare specialised crafters, or another jack-of-all-trades that is not busy making something else/too bored to make something simple in large quantities.
There will never be an economy in Illario as long as people can't use the money for anything, as long as the items and coins are gotten so easly and most of all, as long as you can practice your craft everywhere, free of charge (everywhere = TB).
There will never be an economy in Illario as long as people can't use the money for anything, as long as the items and coins are gotten so easly and most of all, as long as you can practice your craft everywhere, free of charge (everywhere = TB).
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Harald Hradradr
- Posts: 240
- Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:15 pm
The issues here have been developing over a -long- period of time.
Why does everyone go to Troll's Bane? Well, simply put, because everyone is at Troll's Bane. The original reason why people were in Troll's Bane? Everything is there. I have heard quite a few newbies say how they started out in.. Greenbriar, Varshikar, Vanima, only to end up in TB.
Everyone is accepted there. Everyone likes one another. Sure, there are people who dislike one another, but overall people seem rather.. alright.
I have heard that back in the old days, the hedge by Eliza's shop was where it was -at-. Now, its the workshop. People go there to work, and to chat. Anything a crafter could need, atleast for the very basic begining, would be right there! At their disposal! Joy.
For a long time, there were not many crafters. Those crafters had to pick up the slack, due to largely great inactivity amoung players of crafters. So, they became multi-crafters out of need of the game. Then, as time marched on, new players arrived. This new generation took up crafting as well, following in the footsteps of their previous (who hadn't died off). There were more of them, but overlays were uncommon. Soon though, more crafters arrived. More drama ensued around town. Crafters were then becoming bold, and started fighting. Other warriors soon felt that they could not afford the goods of crafters and started making their own things. That lead to a very busy workshop. Soon, many different characters were working many different jobs. A few of them were even warriors making their own goods. The supply of crafters increased. The demand for crafters decreased. Prices were then dropped. Everyone had to be the most favorable person to buy from. Soon, the prices settled at a base lowest price. Warriors who were supposed to be protecting the town, and gathering things in the dangers of the wells could not fullfil their duty due to the antidotes becoming so expensive and the poison becoming so strong. Then there was a strange momment, when the crafters got tired of waiting. They started using their own weapons in their spare time. Fighting, crafting, gathering, selling to.. who?
There is not much need for warriors. There is not much need for crafters.
Boredom lead to the multi-crafter. Boredom lead to the warrior-crafter.
What can be done though, now? Guilds are falling apart. Everyone can be easily supplied for cheap amounts. Longterm goals of most organizations are gone. Any sort of dramatic happening now, people pass by uncaring. "Oh, a fight in town. Boring. *goes and picks apples.*"
What can be done? Many things can be done IG to combat this issue.
OOCly, we need less crafters. We need -many- less Jack of all trades. We need more warriors, who are.. you know.. interested in being warriors. Do you need something more to your gaming experience? Do not look to the -engine- for pure entertainment. All that does is make you want your IG char to do more things. Shake things up a bit IG instead. Or, make a new character! I know there are lots of crafters, and quite a few mages, and even warriors. Personally, I think the amount of mages is alright. Maybe a few more would be nice. We have a lot of crafters, and warrior-crafters. What is it that makes them go to crafting? Well, for one, being a warrior isn't very rewarding. Sure, they can be a guard.
Being a guard is terribly annoying though, isn't it? You will have criminals who are complete jerks and won't rp nicely, and you will have newbies tie some one up and just take off with them, through the forest. And when it comes down to it, you either have to cloud them, or give up. And then its either you get yelled at for clouding, or you get yelled at for not doing enough. It becomes annoying, unencouraging, and eventually they just stop. And pick up tools to make money. Or, the guards just can't do their job, and don't get paid, so they quit.
Maybe make drops have more coins to them. And less magical weapons. More npc attacks on town that would be just strong enough to be out of the realm of a crafter who fights occasionally, but within that of a guard?
As for guilds, part of the issue that they fall so quickly, is because they do not have much of a reason to be around. Okay, so, lets say there is an attack on Troll's Bane. Everyone fights. Tol Vanima is on fire? Everyone goes to put it out. Its a joint effort. Everything is. A war on Silverbrand? Alright, so the island is splint in half.
So why not have things that challanges guilds as well? Most likely existing members who are around will become more active if they know their guild is in danger. Or it will crumble. Looking at the guild page, there are many guilds.
One is supposed to be farming. Now there are hunters and inside their building is every single tool. Two of them are a coalition for gathering information and healing. Two of them are about balancing the island. One is about isolating themselves in a barbarian sort of manner, and enjoying comradory. One is about protecting the island as a whole, and -Four- are about the darker side. Another thing is a group of english speaking dwarves, trying to make a stand. A couple are about learning magic. There is also a group of mercenaries, which does not seem to have had a job in almost a month.
Yet there is nothing to -challange- them, in anyway, to maintain their goals. If they even have any. Sure, there is trying to get buildings. Alright, that does take time. And effort. And money. Buildings do not entertain people. Have you ever just sat in a house full of tools, a bed, a wooden floor, and nothing else and felt truely entertained? There must be a -reason- for these things. If your group's goal is to raise trouble, make people bleed, amass a huge wealth.. most likely you won't be around long. A long term goal is good. Getting people to support it is better. Heck, getting people in there who want to -destroy- it is even good.
Maybe I am just odd, but I do think that things could be done to challange these groups a bit more, and by challanging them a little.. they may be more interested in staying.
Why does everyone go to Troll's Bane? Well, simply put, because everyone is at Troll's Bane. The original reason why people were in Troll's Bane? Everything is there. I have heard quite a few newbies say how they started out in.. Greenbriar, Varshikar, Vanima, only to end up in TB.
Everyone is accepted there. Everyone likes one another. Sure, there are people who dislike one another, but overall people seem rather.. alright.
I have heard that back in the old days, the hedge by Eliza's shop was where it was -at-. Now, its the workshop. People go there to work, and to chat. Anything a crafter could need, atleast for the very basic begining, would be right there! At their disposal! Joy.
For a long time, there were not many crafters. Those crafters had to pick up the slack, due to largely great inactivity amoung players of crafters. So, they became multi-crafters out of need of the game. Then, as time marched on, new players arrived. This new generation took up crafting as well, following in the footsteps of their previous (who hadn't died off). There were more of them, but overlays were uncommon. Soon though, more crafters arrived. More drama ensued around town. Crafters were then becoming bold, and started fighting. Other warriors soon felt that they could not afford the goods of crafters and started making their own things. That lead to a very busy workshop. Soon, many different characters were working many different jobs. A few of them were even warriors making their own goods. The supply of crafters increased. The demand for crafters decreased. Prices were then dropped. Everyone had to be the most favorable person to buy from. Soon, the prices settled at a base lowest price. Warriors who were supposed to be protecting the town, and gathering things in the dangers of the wells could not fullfil their duty due to the antidotes becoming so expensive and the poison becoming so strong. Then there was a strange momment, when the crafters got tired of waiting. They started using their own weapons in their spare time. Fighting, crafting, gathering, selling to.. who?
There is not much need for warriors. There is not much need for crafters.
Boredom lead to the multi-crafter. Boredom lead to the warrior-crafter.
What can be done though, now? Guilds are falling apart. Everyone can be easily supplied for cheap amounts. Longterm goals of most organizations are gone. Any sort of dramatic happening now, people pass by uncaring. "Oh, a fight in town. Boring. *goes and picks apples.*"
What can be done? Many things can be done IG to combat this issue.
OOCly, we need less crafters. We need -many- less Jack of all trades. We need more warriors, who are.. you know.. interested in being warriors. Do you need something more to your gaming experience? Do not look to the -engine- for pure entertainment. All that does is make you want your IG char to do more things. Shake things up a bit IG instead. Or, make a new character! I know there are lots of crafters, and quite a few mages, and even warriors. Personally, I think the amount of mages is alright. Maybe a few more would be nice. We have a lot of crafters, and warrior-crafters. What is it that makes them go to crafting? Well, for one, being a warrior isn't very rewarding. Sure, they can be a guard.
Being a guard is terribly annoying though, isn't it? You will have criminals who are complete jerks and won't rp nicely, and you will have newbies tie some one up and just take off with them, through the forest. And when it comes down to it, you either have to cloud them, or give up. And then its either you get yelled at for clouding, or you get yelled at for not doing enough. It becomes annoying, unencouraging, and eventually they just stop. And pick up tools to make money. Or, the guards just can't do their job, and don't get paid, so they quit.
Maybe make drops have more coins to them. And less magical weapons. More npc attacks on town that would be just strong enough to be out of the realm of a crafter who fights occasionally, but within that of a guard?
As for guilds, part of the issue that they fall so quickly, is because they do not have much of a reason to be around. Okay, so, lets say there is an attack on Troll's Bane. Everyone fights. Tol Vanima is on fire? Everyone goes to put it out. Its a joint effort. Everything is. A war on Silverbrand? Alright, so the island is splint in half.
So why not have things that challanges guilds as well? Most likely existing members who are around will become more active if they know their guild is in danger. Or it will crumble. Looking at the guild page, there are many guilds.
One is supposed to be farming. Now there are hunters and inside their building is every single tool. Two of them are a coalition for gathering information and healing. Two of them are about balancing the island. One is about isolating themselves in a barbarian sort of manner, and enjoying comradory. One is about protecting the island as a whole, and -Four- are about the darker side. Another thing is a group of english speaking dwarves, trying to make a stand. A couple are about learning magic. There is also a group of mercenaries, which does not seem to have had a job in almost a month.
Yet there is nothing to -challange- them, in anyway, to maintain their goals. If they even have any. Sure, there is trying to get buildings. Alright, that does take time. And effort. And money. Buildings do not entertain people. Have you ever just sat in a house full of tools, a bed, a wooden floor, and nothing else and felt truely entertained? There must be a -reason- for these things. If your group's goal is to raise trouble, make people bleed, amass a huge wealth.. most likely you won't be around long. A long term goal is good. Getting people to support it is better. Heck, getting people in there who want to -destroy- it is even good.
Maybe I am just odd, but I do think that things could be done to challange these groups a bit more, and by challanging them a little.. they may be more interested in staying.
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Joxia Doral
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A good post Vern...i agree wholeheartedly. And I try hard to use crafters whenever i can and also try to keep groups feeling like there is a purpose for the players in them. And things can all too easily get discouraging when playerbase drops, OOC info is abused, resistance to whats going on both RP wise IG AND OOCly in the forums but the biggest point is that it is game....ENJOY. And help others to do so as well.
Alot has been suggested here so far. I think its a bit confusing really. But I must say its gotten alot more interesting than the original topic.
Solving the economy problems is not a simple thing and involves many different topics.
Perhaps it is better to focus first on some things that exist already and make them better, rather than talking of one grand solution to solve everything.
For example, pricing of items...everyone is selling at rock bottom prices regardles of quality. The price lists have rarely been updated and the only price used is the lowest one in most cases. If I ask for 50 copper for an Excellent, brand new hammer I can lose an order, but 35 is fine right down to Good, new. And for a beginner trying to sell anything below that quality, forget it. He has to practice a long time before he can produce anything he can sell to other players.
Alot of this has to do with players expecting nothing but the best for next to nothing. Warriors will not buy anything less than Good, New so beginning smiths and carpenters are screwed. And beginning tailors dont have a hope in hellbriar anyway since clothing NEVER deteriorates.
Now the easiest solution here is to get every crafter charging the same price for each quality level of each item. This is next to impossible but...
Many new players use or try to use the pricelist or ask what others are charging. Update the pricelist and there are now many crafters updating their prices. Most of the experienced crafters I know look to it on occasion or are at least guided by it.
So we update the list..what happens.
Prices start to change, people now look at what quality they can afford who can make that quality. Is a master smith going to bother with a good new serinja sword if 99% of what he makes is very good new . not if his work has now been valued at 1 or more silver higher. the apprentice gets some work. The master now has more value as a smith so he looks to the newbs to mine for him, the newb earns a living and learns his basic skills.
Now sometimes you will get some deals and sales or bulk discounts, well welcome to walmart...it happens. Some folks will be jack of all trades...in real life they rarely last as the masters are the ones making the big bucks. for very little work. you want a good job ...see a master, you want a good price..go see Jack of all trades.
Of course this needs demand so...
meanwhile back at the gate, golems trolls and wolves atack regularly so warriors and mages are needed in the gaurd. the cemetary needs clearing again so new warriors get some training. Blake needs ghosting so master wizards get something to do. And all this time the guilds are wreaking havoc and having a grand old time treasure hunting. Of course the sexy huntress has furs and meet and horns to sell and she wants better bows and arrows. and everyone needs more food to eat
My few copper
Saigwin
PS. Yes I know Im as guilty as anyone of giving out gifts and making my own supplies...so sue me
Solving the economy problems is not a simple thing and involves many different topics.
Perhaps it is better to focus first on some things that exist already and make them better, rather than talking of one grand solution to solve everything.
For example, pricing of items...everyone is selling at rock bottom prices regardles of quality. The price lists have rarely been updated and the only price used is the lowest one in most cases. If I ask for 50 copper for an Excellent, brand new hammer I can lose an order, but 35 is fine right down to Good, new. And for a beginner trying to sell anything below that quality, forget it. He has to practice a long time before he can produce anything he can sell to other players.
Alot of this has to do with players expecting nothing but the best for next to nothing. Warriors will not buy anything less than Good, New so beginning smiths and carpenters are screwed. And beginning tailors dont have a hope in hellbriar anyway since clothing NEVER deteriorates.
Now the easiest solution here is to get every crafter charging the same price for each quality level of each item. This is next to impossible but...
Many new players use or try to use the pricelist or ask what others are charging. Update the pricelist and there are now many crafters updating their prices. Most of the experienced crafters I know look to it on occasion or are at least guided by it.
So we update the list..what happens.
Prices start to change, people now look at what quality they can afford who can make that quality. Is a master smith going to bother with a good new serinja sword if 99% of what he makes is very good new . not if his work has now been valued at 1 or more silver higher. the apprentice gets some work. The master now has more value as a smith so he looks to the newbs to mine for him, the newb earns a living and learns his basic skills.
Now sometimes you will get some deals and sales or bulk discounts, well welcome to walmart...it happens. Some folks will be jack of all trades...in real life they rarely last as the masters are the ones making the big bucks. for very little work. you want a good job ...see a master, you want a good price..go see Jack of all trades.
Of course this needs demand so...
meanwhile back at the gate, golems trolls and wolves atack regularly so warriors and mages are needed in the gaurd. the cemetary needs clearing again so new warriors get some training. Blake needs ghosting so master wizards get something to do. And all this time the guilds are wreaking havoc and having a grand old time treasure hunting. Of course the sexy huntress has furs and meet and horns to sell and she wants better bows and arrows. and everyone needs more food to eat
My few copper
Saigwin
PS. Yes I know Im as guilty as anyone of giving out gifts and making my own supplies...so sue me
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Harald Hradradr
- Posts: 240
- Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:15 pm
Coin increase for fighter? Did you ever hunt something for a while Vern Kron? I know of nothing more rewarding than doing treasure maps and fighting creatures. Lots of loot and coin. Basically any item that a fighter would need ever drops from monster. Even mediocre food.
Heck, I fight with my char creatures but mainly to get some cut gems. Let alone magical gems, that only can be found through...exactly, fighting. The armor that I use for that is...do not really know how old exactly. Did not change it in (rl) month.
The problem that I recognized, when I started my char was a quiet simple one: He got attacked/robbed almost dayly and nobody cared. Of course it matters not how many times the char gets clouded in the beginning but later on it is a pain to get even one skill in my chars main craft - Goldsmithing. Since nobody cares much for fights in town you will get slayn a lot being a simple crafter which means skill loss in the end that, later on, might not be compensated anymore. What does a cought assaulter get? A (few) day(s) ban from town that the attacker does not have to obey since... again, nobody cares.
At Trolls Bane is one law, the law of the strongest, as if almost all people living there were Moshran followers. The char therefor left the town in his early days on the island and only visits it fully armored but never would work there again.
To be honest, there is lack of characters that stay true to themselves.
I furthermore would not agree that there is many crafter... but many people that can craft. That is a little difference to me.
Anyway, I have to agree with what you said regarding guilds. There is a lot of guilds, however, there is no real purpose for them to be there at all. As soon as something is happening elsewhere, like those fires, people move to there ... in droves. Be it a quest or whatever. And all fight together ... whatever enemy there is and do not care much for fighting shoulder on shoulder with somebody who just killed the char a day ago. There not only is lack of characters that stay true to themselves but the guilds have the same 'problem' because they lack long term goals and or challenges.
Heck, I fight with my char creatures but mainly to get some cut gems. Let alone magical gems, that only can be found through...exactly, fighting. The armor that I use for that is...do not really know how old exactly. Did not change it in (rl) month.
The problem that I recognized, when I started my char was a quiet simple one: He got attacked/robbed almost dayly and nobody cared. Of course it matters not how many times the char gets clouded in the beginning but later on it is a pain to get even one skill in my chars main craft - Goldsmithing. Since nobody cares much for fights in town you will get slayn a lot being a simple crafter which means skill loss in the end that, later on, might not be compensated anymore. What does a cought assaulter get? A (few) day(s) ban from town that the attacker does not have to obey since... again, nobody cares.
At Trolls Bane is one law, the law of the strongest, as if almost all people living there were Moshran followers. The char therefor left the town in his early days on the island and only visits it fully armored but never would work there again.
To be honest, there is lack of characters that stay true to themselves.
I furthermore would not agree that there is many crafter... but many people that can craft. That is a little difference to me.
Anyway, I have to agree with what you said regarding guilds. There is a lot of guilds, however, there is no real purpose for them to be there at all. As soon as something is happening elsewhere, like those fires, people move to there ... in droves. Be it a quest or whatever. And all fight together ... whatever enemy there is and do not care much for fighting shoulder on shoulder with somebody who just killed the char a day ago. There not only is lack of characters that stay true to themselves but the guilds have the same 'problem' because they lack long term goals and or challenges.
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Achae Eanstray
- Posts: 4300
- Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 7:03 am
- Location: A field of dandelions
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Getting off topic from the original post onto economics briefly 
For a simple change, if warriors had more coin and less loot dropped they actually COULD and would buy at least from smiths and tailors (for leather armor). Quite awhile back the coin was reduced due to complaints the warriors were the only one earning coin yet they actually fueled the economy buying and also giving coin for other things. Like Estralis said, some chars would give a large amount of coin to simply chop wood. I had a few give me coin for clothes when I tailored. This hasn't happened now in a LONG time, warriors actually would be broke now buying their own weapons and armor if not for the drops. As far as food, my warrior tried to buy food for two weeks and finally bought from an NPC seeing no cook that could make the high end dishes needed to boost con. New cooks can't make those dishes. The change in housing policy has reduced the desire to build IMO which would have been another drain on the coin/encouraging more spending. Realizing that people banding together in a guild would be nice, like was posted. finding four that will actually stay together in a guild with the player population as it is, and a long term goal is hard/impossible?
Achae quit tailoring mainly due to the fact it gets lonely at the tailoring table .. it was so nice to tailor standing near a depot and RPing with someone that came by *shrugs*
For a simple change, if warriors had more coin and less loot dropped they actually COULD and would buy at least from smiths and tailors (for leather armor). Quite awhile back the coin was reduced due to complaints the warriors were the only one earning coin yet they actually fueled the economy buying and also giving coin for other things. Like Estralis said, some chars would give a large amount of coin to simply chop wood. I had a few give me coin for clothes when I tailored. This hasn't happened now in a LONG time, warriors actually would be broke now buying their own weapons and armor if not for the drops. As far as food, my warrior tried to buy food for two weeks and finally bought from an NPC seeing no cook that could make the high end dishes needed to boost con. New cooks can't make those dishes. The change in housing policy has reduced the desire to build IMO which would have been another drain on the coin/encouraging more spending. Realizing that people banding together in a guild would be nice, like was posted. finding four that will actually stay together in a guild with the player population as it is, and a long term goal is hard/impossible?
Achae quit tailoring mainly due to the fact it gets lonely at the tailoring table .. it was so nice to tailor standing near a depot and RPing with someone that came by *shrugs*
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Harald Hradradr
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Updating the prices? What for? Does not make an item more wanted and would only encourage the players to make these items themselves. Though, let us say you would raise the prices overall. What would you want to do with all the coin in the end?
I let my char choose if he is interested in smithing for somebody or not. The prices vary greatly for the characters likes and dislikes up to a blatant 'no'. He got not many customers, though, the coin piles up.
Since he never will have a home for himself and his own shop because of the new building rules... what to do with it? I actually thought of grabbing the coin, walk to a nice spot far away from the town and... toss it into the sea.
The problem is not the coin or the prices in my opinion. It is just 'boring' to stand around all day and doing nothing but crafting the same thing over and over again. This actually is possible because most ressources are rediculous easy to get (when doing it oneself).
I do not really expect somebody to become a true crafter in the long run. While many newbies start with a trade, they soon abandon it and change the role of the character to a self supplying adventurer. (And while it is boring to craft all day it is just as annoying to be attacked every second day.)
What I would like to see is the need for a few uncommon ressources to make high end products. The Shield of the Sky (some gold, lots of cut diamonds) is a good example. Though, still too easy to make. BUT at the same time none of these items should be found elsewhere, meaning neither drop nor treasure. Let a few creatures rather drop some of these uncommon and non harvestable ressources. A dragon for example could drop 'dragon' scales and a very very good smith could use it to make a dragon scale shield. Something along these lines. The skeletons could drop 'bones' while a druid could make 'bone powder' with it used in potions....
Another thing that I would like to see is a rework of the actual script that determines the quality of an item. Most important thing it seems, is the tool that is used. The skill only plays a negligeable role.
So: with a bad hammer I could work my ass of but never would be able to make a very good item and be it the very first item that the char learned to make. However, using an excellent tool (all others are just good for making the main work, means the last step to finish the item determines its quality) is the ONLY (alright, I am exaggereating, it would be possible, once in a blue moon to also make an excellent item with a mere very good tool) way to go if you want an excellent item. But even then it is more of flicking a coin than the characters skill and knowledge about the craft.
I let my char choose if he is interested in smithing for somebody or not. The prices vary greatly for the characters likes and dislikes up to a blatant 'no'. He got not many customers, though, the coin piles up.
Since he never will have a home for himself and his own shop because of the new building rules... what to do with it? I actually thought of grabbing the coin, walk to a nice spot far away from the town and... toss it into the sea.
The problem is not the coin or the prices in my opinion. It is just 'boring' to stand around all day and doing nothing but crafting the same thing over and over again. This actually is possible because most ressources are rediculous easy to get (when doing it oneself).
I do not really expect somebody to become a true crafter in the long run. While many newbies start with a trade, they soon abandon it and change the role of the character to a self supplying adventurer. (And while it is boring to craft all day it is just as annoying to be attacked every second day.)
What I would like to see is the need for a few uncommon ressources to make high end products. The Shield of the Sky (some gold, lots of cut diamonds) is a good example. Though, still too easy to make. BUT at the same time none of these items should be found elsewhere, meaning neither drop nor treasure. Let a few creatures rather drop some of these uncommon and non harvestable ressources. A dragon for example could drop 'dragon' scales and a very very good smith could use it to make a dragon scale shield. Something along these lines. The skeletons could drop 'bones' while a druid could make 'bone powder' with it used in potions....
Another thing that I would like to see is a rework of the actual script that determines the quality of an item. Most important thing it seems, is the tool that is used. The skill only plays a negligeable role.
So: with a bad hammer I could work my ass of but never would be able to make a very good item and be it the very first item that the char learned to make. However, using an excellent tool (all others are just good for making the main work, means the last step to finish the item determines its quality) is the ONLY (alright, I am exaggereating, it would be possible, once in a blue moon to also make an excellent item with a mere very good tool) way to go if you want an excellent item. But even then it is more of flicking a coin than the characters skill and knowledge about the craft.
Aren't roleplayers supposed to have at least a small amount of creativity to get what they want?Harald Hradradr wrote:Since he never will have a home for himself and his own shop because of the new building rules... what to do with it?
You as single player are not allowed to build a house with the new rules? But the towns are. So why have the town building the house and your char gives the money. How that house is handled IG then, is a thing between your char and the town that actually build that house.
Problem solved.
Right, Vern that was an amazing post. And this thread has gone totally off the tracks.
The problem with the economy is:
I) Fighters can get EVERYTHING and ANYTHING from fighting
II) The best items can only be found from fighting
III) Spending hours and hours crafting so you can be able to produce elven silversteel - or elemental wands, when fighters can get it without any problems, makes people want to shoot themselves.
IV) Fighters like DIY
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The solution for 1-3 is very simple. Less item drops, more money. I could never understand why item drops were favoured over money. Sure its nicer to see creatures drop cloth and stuff but it doesn't do well for crafters.
If the problem is the weight (you can carry tons of coins) put an item which is only found through fighting, and which is sold for a good amount to an NPC. That way you can get the best of both worlds.
However, any enemy that drops certain items WILL be farmed. And even if its incredibly powerful, mages are clever enough to take it out. Hiding behind walls, producing a line of fire et cetera.
So please Less Items, More Money
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The 4th problem is also a big one. There was an attempt to solve it by Lennier which made a horrible assumption and generally ****ed everyone off (the 'strenght dex ratio' thing which meant that the best crafter could hardly carry his own items)
In this case, I think the only solution is a skill cap/class cap. Attributes, while an original idea, don't work. There's a mage who can smith as well.
So in my opinion there should be some sort of cap. If you choose fighting, you'll only be able to reach a low amount in a crafting (not collecting) skill. 40% is generous I believe.
Similarly, crafters who craft should only be able to reach 40% fighting skills. Enough to defend themselves but not enough to beat the crap out of everyone.
I can't think of any other real solution, except maybe give bonuses to crafters who actually craft - but I don't think it'll solve anything until fighters are unable to make their own.
The problem with the economy is:
I) Fighters can get EVERYTHING and ANYTHING from fighting
II) The best items can only be found from fighting
III) Spending hours and hours crafting so you can be able to produce elven silversteel - or elemental wands, when fighters can get it without any problems, makes people want to shoot themselves.
IV) Fighters like DIY
--
The solution for 1-3 is very simple. Less item drops, more money. I could never understand why item drops were favoured over money. Sure its nicer to see creatures drop cloth and stuff but it doesn't do well for crafters.
If the problem is the weight (you can carry tons of coins) put an item which is only found through fighting, and which is sold for a good amount to an NPC. That way you can get the best of both worlds.
However, any enemy that drops certain items WILL be farmed. And even if its incredibly powerful, mages are clever enough to take it out. Hiding behind walls, producing a line of fire et cetera.
So please Less Items, More Money
--
The 4th problem is also a big one. There was an attempt to solve it by Lennier which made a horrible assumption and generally ****ed everyone off (the 'strenght dex ratio' thing which meant that the best crafter could hardly carry his own items)
In this case, I think the only solution is a skill cap/class cap. Attributes, while an original idea, don't work. There's a mage who can smith as well.
So in my opinion there should be some sort of cap. If you choose fighting, you'll only be able to reach a low amount in a crafting (not collecting) skill. 40% is generous I believe.
Similarly, crafters who craft should only be able to reach 40% fighting skills. Enough to defend themselves but not enough to beat the crap out of everyone.
I can't think of any other real solution, except maybe give bonuses to crafters who actually craft - but I don't think it'll solve anything until fighters are unable to make their own.
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Mr. Cromwell
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Or alternatively: More high end materials (Pure elements/Merinium ignots) and coins, and fewer item drops (Craftsmen buy these materials from the fighters for coins/stuff!).
However: Since getting coins and relying solely on the craftsmen is not an idea which is wholly without downsides (namely supply/demand aspect and high end item production monopolies), I propose this: Some very good items are still dropped, even high quality ones: However, other (perhaps most high end items) items are entirely removed from all possible droplists (map/monster) and the only way to gain them is through crafting. This
The jack of all trades theme brings me back to the ancient idea I proposed: Favour those who decide to specialize, while not directly punishing the jacks of all trades. Sure, this means that indirectly those who do everything 'are' in a disadvantage, but currently those who do specialize are, so..
However: Since getting coins and relying solely on the craftsmen is not an idea which is wholly without downsides (namely supply/demand aspect and high end item production monopolies), I propose this: Some very good items are still dropped, even high quality ones: However, other (perhaps most high end items) items are entirely removed from all possible droplists (map/monster) and the only way to gain them is through crafting. This
The jack of all trades theme brings me back to the ancient idea I proposed: Favour those who decide to specialize, while not directly punishing the jacks of all trades. Sure, this means that indirectly those who do everything 'are' in a disadvantage, but currently those who do specialize are, so..
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Kranek
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There is a simple reason for the lack of supply: lack of demand!
When no one buys smithed items, no one will produce them! I say: give it a try! Remove itemdrops! Change it into coins or, as Hadrian suggested: make a new item, only usable to be sold to NPCs. Try it for some weeks.
Testing that for 4 weeks or so won't do any damage.
When no one buys smithed items, no one will produce them! I say: give it a try! Remove itemdrops! Change it into coins or, as Hadrian suggested: make a new item, only usable to be sold to NPCs. Try it for some weeks.
Testing that for 4 weeks or so won't do any damage.
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Estralis Seborian
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I can assure that the next change in monsters and drops will make you reconsider - the best items will only be dropped at low rates (~1%) by monsters that can take out a whole town of mediocre fighters and are still a challenge to a experienced group of powergaming bastards. The inbalances of maps and magic are a different topic and I'd love to see the responsible devs spending some time on this.
In other words: Your ordinary skeleton will not drop anything a non-noob will consider useful anymore. But still, items are dropped, items you can sell to NPCs or use in case of emergency (or as training weapons), but nothing beyond that.
Anyway, I think we all know what possible changes could yield some benefit for the game. But somebody has to do it and all changes need a consistent vision. The posts above show that people have different visions, but in the end, you cannot appease everyone. So, I go more into the "screw it, let them have their fun"-direction, with less complicated crafting processes and good ways to sell junk to NPCs while others (still) think we can have a self consistent market in a game like Illarion...
In other words: Your ordinary skeleton will not drop anything a non-noob will consider useful anymore. But still, items are dropped, items you can sell to NPCs or use in case of emergency (or as training weapons), but nothing beyond that.
Anyway, I think we all know what possible changes could yield some benefit for the game. But somebody has to do it and all changes need a consistent vision. The posts above show that people have different visions, but in the end, you cannot appease everyone. So, I go more into the "screw it, let them have their fun"-direction, with less complicated crafting processes and good ways to sell junk to NPCs while others (still) think we can have a self consistent market in a game like Illarion...
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Mr. Cromwell
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In some cases however, supply of goods does create demand. What people fail at these days is the marketing: Nobody is standing in the streetcorner anymore, selling stuff.. They all expect that people run to them and beg for items, somehow. It takes two to tango, and the craftsmen ought to accept their own lack of initiative and responsibility for their part here. Maybe the people have grown dull by just getting used to crafting stuff en masse to NPC's and expect PC buyers to be constantly available at the snap of the fingers whenever the crafter has made something, in the same way as NPCs are?Kranek wrote:There is a simple reason for the lack of supply: lack of demand!
When no one buys smithed items, no one will produce them! I say: give it a try! Remove itemdrops! Change it into coins or, as Hadrian suggested: make a new item, only usable to be sold to NPCs. Try it for some weeks.
Testing that for 4 weeks or so won't do any damage.
Back in the good old days, we used to, you know.. Sell those items we made, by shouting, bargaining and making offers..
Now you're in deep shit even when you 'want' to buy stuff and know what you want (and we don't talk about no complicated stuff here, just high quality).
I don't think that giving bonuses to crafters will solve this problem.
Warrior/Crafters will just wait until they can get whatever instead - until they've PGed their smithing enough to get the items they need.
And Estralis, even if you put 1%, they'll still farm them. And magic is so overpowered, with its walls and 'exploits' that you can easily kill anything which isn't totally magic resistant.
Warrior/Crafters will just wait until they can get whatever instead - until they've PGed their smithing enough to get the items they need.
And Estralis, even if you put 1%, they'll still farm them. And magic is so overpowered, with its walls and 'exploits' that you can easily kill anything which isn't totally magic resistant.
Yeah, magic is way too over powering...
LOWER THE POWER!!!1!
LOWER THE POWER!!!1!
And as for this, warriors have to spend alot of time getting 'good' in able to find these 'great' items... I have no idea where you got the "without any problem" theory.Spending hours and hours crafting so you can be able to produce elven silversteel - or elemental wands, when fighters can get it without any problems, makes people want to shoot themselves.
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Achae Eanstray
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This is so true, when a warrior can get what they need in drops there is no need to buy it, yet if a warrior doesn't get coin enough for the items needed, it is impossible to buy also.Kranek wrote:There is a simple reason for the lack of supply: lack of demand!
When no one buys smithed items, no one will produce them! I say: give it a try! Remove itemdrops! Change it into coins or, as Hadrian suggested: make a new item, only usable to be sold to NPCs. Try it for some weeks.
Testing that for 4 weeks or so won't do any damage.
Long term, as far as the "old" idea of mages being overpowered:
Mages are not overpowered looking at long term results, in fact Druids have more with their potions and that will show more in time as potions are found. Priests will also have a lot of power and then we will eventually get Bard magic.
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Damien
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Learning skills as a mage sucks awfully. Even with maximized int, training spells for ten inutes, then roleplaying for two, three or four hours, then training spells again before logging out just earns you one skillup in perhaps a month, if your skill gets past a certain level. And then you can't cast the most more effective spells yet, at least not effectively. Fighter skills are way easier to learn. Plus, a mage has different skills for spell types and has to learn each one alone, while a fighter can learn parrying and tactics kinda along with the weapon types, if he learns anything else than blade weapons.
So if you see a mage who can do all the higher spells with good effect, you most likely have a person who plays every day since a longer time, and chances are not too small that he had to powergame alot for just being able to open a portal. No matter if it leads where he wants or not.
If they'd slow down skillgain for fighters to the learning level of a mage's skill (including number of actions comparing), you'd have quite few people playing at all, most likely.
So if you see a mage who can do all the higher spells with good effect, you most likely have a person who plays every day since a longer time, and chances are not too small that he had to powergame alot for just being able to open a portal. No matter if it leads where he wants or not.
If they'd slow down skillgain for fighters to the learning level of a mage's skill (including number of actions comparing), you'd have quite few people playing at all, most likely.
Well train fighting as a warrior for ten minutes... That would not get you far as a warrior I would say... Try several hours of training and you are getting closer to the time my char spend on fighting.Damien wrote:Learning skills as a mage sucks awfully. Even with maximized int, training spells for ten inutes, then roleplaying for two, three or four hours, then training spells again before logging out just earns you one skillup in perhaps a month, if your skill gets past a certain level. And then you can't cast the most more effective spells yet, at least not effectively. Fighter skills are way easier to learn. Plus, a mage has different skills for spell types and has to learn each one alone, while a fighter can learn parrying and tactics kinda along with the weapon types, if he learns anything else than blade weapons.
So if you see a mage who can do all the higher spells with good effect, you most likely have a person who plays every day since a longer time, and chances are not too small that he had to powergame alot for just being able to open a portal. No matter if it leads where he wants or not.
If they'd slow down skillgain for fighters to the learning level of a mage's skill (including number of actions comparing), you'd have quite few people playing at all, most likely.
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Pellandria
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The problem is..a figther needs just food and some weapons,mage equipment costs atleast around 60 Silver..andthat for a robe alone..an amulett or an elemental wand alone, with 60 Silvers you can clad a warriors in full metal armour + magicalswords.
Not to forget that you can jsut train till your mana runs out..no mana no spells..if you are even figthing than you need double the food because you need to replesh mana and health based upon your foodbar.
So yes everyone who trains over an year to get a moderate skilled mage has the right to kill a figther who trained in much less time with much less suffering.
Not to forget that you can jsut train till your mana runs out..no mana no spells..if you are even figthing than you need double the food because you need to replesh mana and health based upon your foodbar.
So yes everyone who trains over an year to get a moderate skilled mage has the right to kill a figther who trained in much less time with much less suffering.
Hawk you maxed your fighting skills 3 months ago just to let you know, that's why it takes you so long to level up.Hawkmoon wrote:Well train fighting as a warrior for ten minutes... That would not get you far as a warrior I would say... Try several hours of training and you are getting closer to the time my char spend on fighting.
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Avalyon el'Hattarr
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Pella, you are lieing!! 
A mage doesnt need 60 silvers to buy equipment.. a mage needs to beg for 1 year to get his runes and spend a few months to get the usefull ones, then another year to get decent skills..
Before you say, yes, I do play a fighter, a maxed one even. Took me like the msot 2 months to get him like that (could have done it faster too), but it took me more than 1 year to get one 90 mage skill and the others between 50 and 70, so please don't come here saying that mages are overpowered before you actually try to play one
A mage doesnt need 60 silvers to buy equipment.. a mage needs to beg for 1 year to get his runes and spend a few months to get the usefull ones, then another year to get decent skills..
Before you say, yes, I do play a fighter, a maxed one even. Took me like the msot 2 months to get him like that (could have done it faster too), but it took me more than 1 year to get one 90 mage skill and the others between 50 and 70, so please don't come here saying that mages are overpowered before you actually try to play one