Illarion.org

Besides the ooc thing, isn't this what you're supposed to do? Make a mage like you, because you want him to share his life time wisdom with you. He won't teach a man whom he doesn't see as "worty" for his time.
Just my two cents.

Fooser wrote:

Aristeaus wrote:Im going to make Aristeaus an Arch Mage

oh shizzy

Indeed, will need to change his hat though..

Edit: please stay on topic and stop posting crap.. Thank you

No 99% of this thread is crap. and what your suggesting is an elitest method which results in only select people who arse rape certain gm's getting runes.

Tell the truth aye Foosey?

Aristeaus wrote: No 99% of this thread is crap. and what your suggesting is an elitest method which results in only select people who arse rape certain gm's getting runes.

Tell the truth aye Foosey?

*claps* Jinken(Amen for you non buddhists ). I believe this happened the first time, and Probably will happen again soon. No big deal, since we already know it's coming.

Aristeaus wrote:

Fooser wrote:

Aristeaus wrote:Im going to make Aristeaus an Arch Mage

oh shizzy

Indeed, will need to change his hat though..

Edit: please stay on topic and stop posting crap.. Thank you

No 99% of this thread is crap. and what your suggesting is an elitest method which results in only select people who arse rape certain gm's getting runes.

Tell the truth aye Foosey?

Aristeaus is a true innovator and prophet

Atuan Silverheart wrote:Enough with the jokes.

Okay here's my two cents: I hate the academy.. I hate the idea that all newbs and n00bs just get magic without having to work for it or being IG for long enough to know how things spin. I hate the fact this spoils all the fun.. My idea is to erase the academy and insted, have the GM's select a FEW good played mage chars, who wouldn't make you doubt that the players he's gonna teach, would end up pk'g n00bs. These teacher chars should be the only ones having the rune and they could teach when they want and whom they consider that is ready(after a period of apprentichip of at least 1-2 months), without any penalties or skill requirement whatsoever.

That sounds perfect. The gms wouldnt use so long to find around 4 mages that could have the teaching rune. This would hopefully be so good rp'ers, that they did not care about who they like in rl. That he chooses who he like ingame, can't be that bad I think, as that would be what a "real" mage would do as well. Each teacher should maximum have two apprentices I think.

This sounds like a good idea Marius.

Here's my proposal:

Balance the magic system so it is equal to the fighting system, and then allow people who want to play mages select that during character creation. Those players then get some starting runes and are able to cast some basic spells at character creation. They can then find further runes through adventuring or buying them from adventurers. No one will complain that people can start with magic because it is balanced to be just as powerful as the fighting system, and people can fight from start, so what's the problem?

My inspiration comes mainly from every game that doesn't do everything ass backwards.

there is no possibility to balance magic system to fighting system.

Samantha Meryadeles wrote:there is no possibility to balance magic system to fighting system.

because?

It seems to me that every other game is able to do this. Every fantasy rpg that I've played in my lifetime other than Illarion does it this way.

Because of the whole basic fighting and magic system.

or how would you suggest to change it? how would you balance it so that the two complet different systems are equal? that noone has a disadvantage against the other one?

I didn't say that one wouldn't have disadvantages to the other one, but that it would be balanced, so that disadvantages here would be balanced with advantages here.

As an example, try any other fantasy game with a magic system in existance. There are thousands of examples of what I'm talking about. This magic academy system that has been hampering Illarion, on the other hand, doesn't exist elsewhere and has failed, multiple times. Let's kill it, please.

Illarionites love to talk shit about Runescape. Runescape was even able to balance the fighting and magic systems enough to allow players to start with magic at the beginning of the game.

Than give me examples, because i dont play other online rpg games. since 99 % of that games suck at roleplay or cost money.

so please, give examples. try it with showing where the other games differ from illarion, and how that would be better, and also possible to instalt in illarion.


and what is with runescape? it sucks like hell as a game, and it makes me sick playing it. the roleplay there sucks like hell


shall i tell you why the other games can work that out, with the balancing? because most of that other games are based on levels. level 1, level 2, and so on. the spells are based on levels, and their strength is based in that levels.
So we shall install levels to illarion aswell?

Sometimes I don't know if you're just being stubborn, Patric...

If you can't think of a game that you've played in which the systems are balanced enough to allow one to start the game as a mage, then you simply are not a gameplayer, but I know better.

I know for a fact that you really enjoyed Morrowind. There we see a magic system that is set up to be immediately enjoyed at character creation(as it is in almost every game, Illarion being one of the few exceptions).

Magic, in Morrowind, ultimately was much more powerful than fighting but was balanced by sharp mana costs and slow mana regeneration. In this way one doesn't overpower the other making the other useless, and, in fact, the two different types of combat are often used alternatingly by the same player, depending on a number of factors.

You realize that morrowind is a singleplayer game and illarion a multiuser game and that you cant compare that?

you can't compare balacning of a game in which a single player beats up npc to a game in which you are not the only player around.

you simply can't compare that!

when low on mana in morrowind you could have gone back to town where nothing happens to you. a mage could also wear any form of armor, and a mage could have raises his healthpoints to a high amount so that he survives melee attacks more easily.


you really want to say the magic and fighting system of morrowind can be an example for illarion, and how it could be done here?

if you speak of balancing, than use other multi player games, and no singleplayer games. they are useless as an example.

Samantha Meryadeles wrote:You realize that morrowind is a singleplayer game and illarion a multiuser game and that you cant compare that?

I can't? No. Wait. I just did.

you can't compare balacning of a game in which a single player beats up npc to a game in which you are not the only player around.

you simply can't compare that!

If your head is as thick as Mac Truck's bumper, you can't compare that at all, you're right.

However, you were asking for an example that you could relate to and meanwhile telling me that you don't play any other online rpg's, and so what was I to do?

Nevermind the fact that this same balancing system is used in mmorpg's. Your "shitty" Runescape, for example, uses a system in which mages need to carry runes with them to cast spells and as they cast them the runes are lost. Certain runes are more rare than others (those whcih are in more powerful spells) and other ones are very common (but weak). In this way, just like mana in other systems, the system is balanced against the fighting system.

All Illarion would need to balance out is some more weak spells for starting characters, and the runes rearranged so that the weak spells use common runes that one can start with and the powerful spells would require runes that are found in the deepest dungeons (and those deep dungeons need to exist as well!)

when low on mana in morrowind you could have gone back to town where nothing happens to you. a mage could also wear any form of armor, and a mage could have raises his healthpoints to a high amount.

you really want to say the magic and fighting system of morrowind can be an example for illarion, and how it could be done here?

I explained where my comparison lies. And hell, you used to be able to wear metal armor and cast spells in Illarion. If you think the current system in which only you and five of the GM's friends can cast spells at all is superior, then I don't even care to argue further with you; it's a waste of time.

All Illarion would need to balance out is some more weak spells for starting characters, and the runes rearranged so that the weak spells use common runes that one can start with and the powerful spells would require runes that are found in the deepest dungeons (and those deep dungeons need to exist as well!)

so the more powerful spells will be just for those who trained their mages high enough in fighting to enter those deep dungeons, or who can gather enough trained fighters to go with them?

And that should be a more balanced and fair system?


i suggest there more that there are starter spells, like ra kel, mes pen, orl kah, and that you can get the really powerfull spells, or runes you need for them, just by magic teachers, chars played by other players.
But for that we need a better teaching scrypt. our scripters dont even find time to script that, and you suggest they find the time to change the whole magic system, implent deep dungeons and who knows what else?

i dont like the idea that, to be a powerful mage, you just have to find the possibility to go into a dungeon, kill monsters, and than find that rune somewhere, without the need of a teacher or without the need to learn really what it means to be a mage, or how to roleplay one.

i dont want to see many magechars ingame who suck at roleplaying mages. we already find that often with warriors, even if it should be not so hard to play a warrior

Samantha Meryadeles wrote:

All Illarion would need to balance out is some more weak spells for starting characters, and the runes rearranged so that the weak spells use common runes that one can start with and the powerful spells would require runes that are found in the deepest dungeons (and those deep dungeons need to exist as well!)

so the more powerful spells will be just for those who trained their mages high enough in fighting to enter those deep dungeons, or who can gather enough trained fighters to go with them?

And that should be a more balanced and fair system?

Or those who buy the runes on the open market.

You're right though; we should instead give the highest level runes to people who don't do anything. Or maybe we should give them to people who cyber the most.

What makes me sick and chases me away from online roleplaying in fantasy settings more than anything else is the people who forgot that the thing that propped up this genre was adventure.

Instead you want to stand around and pose and cyber and get rewarded for it. Is that it?

The only other option is a communistic system in which we are all given the runes and the equal ability to cast them.

Since those two options are retarded beyond measure, let's leave it to the time-tested variant. So yes, dungeons and puzzles and quests. No on the magic academy.

i suggest there more that there are starter spells, like ra kel, mes pen, orl kah, and that you can get the really powerfull spells, or runes you need for them, just by magic teachers, chars played by other players.
But for that we need a better teaching scrypt. our scripters dont even find time to script that, and you suggest they find the time to change the whole magic system, implent deep dungeons and who knows what else?

In the time that has been taken to prop up this winner of a system, we could have been halfway to realizing what I've proposed. And even if they manage to make a working version of this magic system, it still doesn't manage the task of fairly distributing magic. It distributes magic to those characters that are compatible with the teaching character, and to the friends of GM's/Seers.

Also, deep dungeons, NPC quests, and puzzles are needed in the game regardless. In fact, I would say they are as important to the future of this game as a working magic system is. This simply kills two birds with one stone.

i dont like the idea that, to be a powerful mage, you just have to find the possibility to go into a dungeon, kill monsters, and than find that rune somewhere, without the need of a teacher or without the need to learn really what it means to be a mage, or how to roleplay one.

I don't like the idea that one can't get a rune through independent study, or can't get a rune because he's pulling a full time job and lives in a different time zone. A system like that only promises one thing: that magic goes to the person who has more in common with the player of the teacher in real life, be that personality-wise, or by the style of their rp, or by their physical location.

Even worse, if it actually does happen that Illarion starts to get players it will not support such an increase in players and will degenerate very quickly to the point where teachers will teach less about roleplay than a dungeon would.

I remember when we used to expect players to known how to roleplay a mage to be playing the game. I, in fact, don't see why anyone is of the opinion that it's that much harder to play a mage than a smith. The only difference is that we don't care when people abuse their smithing skill because that is a largely antisocial skill.

Anyways, I'm out of time to argue. I'm off to cook food and open presents. Later, Patric.

Other question

How long will it take until the scripters repair parts of the magic system?

- Changing the foodspells so that they don't take anymore too much mana for their filling effect. AND changing that stupid explosion sound.

- Bringing back the creating of scrolls which seems to have put off when the magic got changed.

And put some more power in the spells. Magic is under-rated, dispite of all the complains. Who complains about magic being to strong, then he has never played a mage. Damn you

I don't really like the idea of anyone getting to be a mage just like that.
I do think some sort of teachers are needed, teachers who'se po's also value if the po of the other char can rp enough to handle a more powerfull spell (Since, let's face it some of the students sucked ass.)
Magic should be more powerfull, but harder to obtain, and of course longer time needed to study. Not by powergaming, but also by rping with teachers.
The only large problems I can see right now are:
-Po's of fighter chars complaining about it not being 'fair'.
-Enough teachers, in a few timezones, who have enough time.


A game should be fun, but if mages arn't 'special', what is?
Mages have to be a bit more 'special' in my eyes, there is no fantasy story I know in wich a mage is as strong as a fighter.
In other games, yes.
Roleplaying is in a way also storytelling, and I think it's just fine that mages get to be more powerfull.


And Pat: There is roleplaying in RS? You do know what roleplaying means right?

I entirely disagree about gaining magic through "adventure". I fully agree with being able to get runes through individual study. It seems so much more real somehow, that you can get runes on your own, just as warriors get weapons and skill on their own. Then people come with "yeah but they need to know whether they have well enough RP for that" or something along those lines. Yet that argument is never brought up with warriors.

Kevin Lightdot wrote:I don't really like the idea of anyone getting to be a mage just like that.
I do think some sort of teachers are needed, teachers who'se po's also value if the po of the other char can rp enough to handle a more powerfull spell (Since, let's face it some of the students sucked ass.)
Magic should be more powerfull, but harder to obtain, and of course longer time needed to study. Not by powergaming, but also by rping with teachers.
The only large problems I can see right now are:
-Po's of fighter chars complaining about it not being 'fair'.
-Enough teachers, in a few timezones, who have enough time.


A game should be fun, but if mages arn't 'special', what is?
Mages have to be a bit more 'special' in my eyes, there is no fantasy story I know in wich a mage is as strong as a fighter.
In other games, yes.
Roleplaying is in a way also storytelling, and I think it's just fine that mages get to be more powerfull.


And Pat: There is roleplaying in RS? You do know what roleplaying means right?

I still do not get why mage HAVE to be entirely stronger than every warriors there is. The problem with this is that we are not playing a huge MMORPG where most battles are with several members on each side. I would say, about 90% of the unfriendly 'battles' are duels (1 VS 1). By making fighters powerless to mages in a 1 on 1, you make fighters powerless nearly all the time, giving them no chance at all unless they are in group (hardly possible to be with someone all the time ig).

Second thing I see is there is no way for a warrior to get any better for fighting a mage, the difference of attack power between a skilled and unskilled warrior is hardly noticeable at all, and there is nothing that helps resisting magic which is gainable.

----------------------

I agree with Aegohl in most points, though I am not quite sure about the solutions. The only solution I see that would not be abused would be self study, but I have no idea how this could be implemented. Some dungeons and such woulnt hurt I do not think though I am unsure about gaining runes that way.

I would say, about 90% of the unfriendly 'battles' are duels (1 VS 1). By making fighters powerless to mages in a 1 on 1, you make fighters powerless nearly all the time,

That is untrue. 90 % of fights these days are between a group and a single or two peoples.

@dan : dude, have you got the slightes idea of what pain in the ass it is to train a mage?
Let's compare:

-fighter day one - goes to pigs or directly to mummies, in a few days can take out a skeleton without problems.

-mage day one (unless academy active -which is shit) - nothing, day two - nothing, bla bla bla for a few months until he finds a mage willing to teach.
In a few months, a fighter that is trained every day, not pg, can reach a high level in skill + pretty decent equipment and money.

equipment:
fighter - equipment that can be bought from almost anywhere with money that you make from hunting skeletons( i also play a fighter and i used to get somewhat arround 7 silver per graveyard trip + decent equipment),
mage - wands which cost like hell and are very hard to find. Money ... maybe from begging, cos' there is no other way to get them as a mage.

actual skills:
fighter - run to enemyes, ctrl+click , drink potion, sit back and relax
mage - have runes!, know rune combinations, cast them at every blow, teleport arrownd to avoid being hit, rest god damn long for mana to replentish.

So now tell me... why wound't a mage be more powerful than a fighter?

@Patric : Just shup up

@Avalyon : I know all of that, you can believe me on that, getting magic is surely not something easy, it takes a lot of time and most people just end up with nothing anyway, but that is why some people here are giving solutions.

@Silas : PO Silas shown in the past that he prefers to tell mindless insults in useless posts just because he is angered that someone disagree with the concept that Silas has to pwn all than to write something useful.

You dont know if I know something about the magic system, what prooves you that I never played any mage?

Magic is for lazy people.

Dan don't get upseat, but working your ass off to train a decent mage for a looong loong time and seeing that you are barely able to pwn nwbs (I almost got killed by a random ctrl+click one), makes you kidda upseat.
First of all mages don't have even 1/4 of the fighter's constitution.. he hasa very high chance to fall from 2 hits. Well, mages don't have any spell that can pwn in two hits. Not even the strong ones.
And second, which is more of a story line, in all games/books/whatever, mages are the strongest being in the world. They must be really strong, but very hard to play.. As I see it, they are only very very hard to play, but with no actual reward.

I played my mage character for a year (literally, 12 months) and the only decent magic he's got to show for it is a lousy spell that moves people away, and last I checked he could only cast it five times before running out of mana.

For the average player, magic sucks.

POAvalyon,

i think, most players of fighters and crafters are afraid of strong mages, because they fear, that an evil char like Avalyon el'Hattarr being too mighty, would simply end the game.

Korwin, thats why we need a working system to teach others runes. But currently the only working way, the teaching room, is not available to those who are really active and dedicated enough to teach someone runes! Thanks to damien and djironnyma who don't want to share the room with those who don't agree on teaching every idiot or massmurderer passing their way.