Small gripe

Arkadia Misella · Post by **Arkadia Misella** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 12:33 am

Okay...I know I was convicted of a crime...that I was not mad for....I am in jail now...Im still not mad at that.....but when I was thrown in jail, I got pissed off...why? Because there was no one around except for Drathe today then all of a sudden POOF! I was in jail....TERRIBLE RP! Now if a gurad had come up to me, I probably would have tried to run a tad, but If he had vaught me I would have gone to jail....it was just really cheesy as hell....and it should be fixed a tad....and I know...we dont have people that can chase down every criminal...well..maybe lyrenzia should? Just venting

Grant Herion · Post by **Grant Herion** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 12:35 am

Aragon and Dyluck and all those that hold the keys to the prisons say that they find the person before the person goes to jail. If what Arkadia says is true, then it is indeed bad roleplay. And if they were new people roleplaying it like this I am pretty sure the GMs would take the privilege away...

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 12:48 am

As you have already stated yourself and realized, player resource is a very important factor, which we have to account for. I'm sorry that the system can't be catered to perfection and the satisfaction of every aspect, but that's the way it goes, unless you want to convince the Dev Team to hand out more powers, but that of course could be problematic in other ways.

In any case, I have made clear my policy at the end of an earlier discussion, quote:

I'm not sure exactly about the policy of other "keyholders", but I won't ask them for a universal policy unless they really want to, since it's a judgement call between some factors of technical/human resources, and also their character's abilities.

My rule of thumb is that if you're in town, then you'll most likely be caught if one of the "keyholders" see you. But that doesn't mean you will necessarily see the keyholder though.

You can obviously understand that for technical reasons the "key" can only be given to a few people, but roleplay dictates that they wouldn't be the only people in town looking for criminals, so criminals wouldn't always be personally caught by the "keyholders" only.

Anyways, I'm just saying that the "keyholder" may not necessarily roleplay him catching you personally.
I don't mean that you could be imprisoned if another player reports your presence and the "keyholder" listens later. You only get imprisoned if the "keyholder" sees you in some way at that particular moment (maybe a few seconds technical delay).

When you're away from the town, you're won't be caught, unless you're so unlucky as to run into the few "keyholders" when they happen to be outside of town. But in most normal instances, they don't go out just to look for a criminal anyways. Also, the keyholders resources (people/guards) would be lesser if he were alone outside town, but again it's a judgement call by each keyholder.

I think this is fair enough to compromise between roleplay and what technics/human resources allow, so this is the middle ground. If you're a branded criminal and you decide to walk around town, then you'd better hope you aren't seen (at that particular time) by a "keyholder".

End Quote.

Additionally, I personally will usually take a look at the situation at hand too. In your case today, I considered standing smack in the middle of the main street between the shop and the tavern a high likelyhood of being caught by the guards. Also, I provided a short "Guards! Take her away!" so that at least it could be understood what had just occured, though I'm not certain if it may have been unheard due to a technical mistake.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 1:20 am

Walk around town dyluck, most people don't even bother to follow the no casting rule anymore, nobody exept a few accually seem to follow lyrenzian laws anymore. Trollsbane doesn't have a big population, and furthermore many people have left because it is basically a desert island. Yeah these are IC things, but when most probobly wouldn't even recognize her as she could just say her name is something else. Hard to match a name with a face, especially when you don't know what features your looking for. I think if a law abiding citizen or two caught her they could have told you and a nice *poof* would have be ok.

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 1:38 am

I don't see what's your point about who does or does not follow the law. Besides, I'm fairly probable that your knowledge of the situation in Illarion only covers roughly 1/2 of the time at most.
There is no IC indication of a significant portion of citizens having left Troll's Bane, as it is difficult enough to determine the actual number of citizens in the first place.

Whether or not the face of a convicted criminal is hard to say, depending on the structure of the community and the notoriety of the convict.

So in your proposal, you are speaking of relying on the honesty of all criminals and "law-abiding citizens" of the past, present, and future?

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 2:22 am

honesty of criminals...umm what? I never said they had to bring them to the jail, if the criminal runs even though the other characters roleplayed catching them, I think it perfectly reasonable for you to teleport that character to jail. My point is, she is standing in the town, nobody to be found, roleplayed as people are sleeping, out of town ect, who is there to catch her? Couldn't she sneak into town? You say in all likelyhood she would have been caught in the middle of town. But you cannot be caught by nothing. Yes we are relying on the honesty of players, but liars were slain if ever found out, and those who care to report her as being caught I doubt would lie.

Arkadia Misella · Post by **Arkadia Misella** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 2:39 am

I heard the whole "Guards catch her" thing....so I assumed visible guards would have come up to me...not invisible ones. Second...If you are trying to catch someone and they are making it to where you cannot catch then ((i.e. refuse to roleplay that they were caught)) then they are poorly roleplying and should be dealt with ooc. But like I said, Im not mad I am in jail, nor am I mad I was convicted in my trial.....I did what happened and was caught, so I am more than happy to deal with the punishment...I just think the "slapping people in jail instantly" thing needs a little tweaking is all.

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 2:49 am

Dyluck, if you want proof of significant amounts of people leaving.......I do keep ICQ , MSN, AIM and Yahoo logs if you want to see

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:33 am

@Dyluck I also don't like the "magical jailings" you have been handing out...it is annoying and not very good Rp. I think that a warning should be given to the person you are about to jail. Something like this: "There is the criminal after him/her!" That gives the alleged criminal time to run or make an escape. If the keyholder or the keyholder's guards can get close enough to the person to touch him/her then the person could be considered "caught". It is more realistic and better Rp than just having a keyholder seeing the criminal (or worse not seeing him/her at all) and making a technical adjustment that "magically transports" the person to jail.

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:35 am

Gro'bul wrote:honesty of criminals...umm what? I never said they had to bring them to the jail, if the criminal runs even though the other characters roleplayed catching them, I think it perfectly reasonable for you to teleport that character to jail. My point is, she is standing in the town, nobody to be found, roleplayed as people are sleeping, out of town ect, who is there to catch her? Couldn't she sneak into town? You say in all likelyhood she would have been caught in the middle of town. But you cannot be caught by nothing. Yes we are relying on the honesty of players, but liars were slain if ever found out, and those who care to report her as being caught I doubt would lie.

So, you will take it upon your own shoulders to say that anyone who claims they caught a criminal, would not be lieing? Well, I can't wait to hear about all the "I caught Elaralith" reports. It's not a very realistic idea if you don't consider the "human" aspect of the siutation.

You say the "invisible" people are sleeping, but I could just as well say they are walking, or who can decide when and where the "ivisible" people are if there are no more than 20 people around at a time? We can't ever say for sure where they are, but the fact is that the "guards" hired by Lyrenzia are considered to be patrolling some places in town, not to mention should be at the gates. This is simply a "background" that you have to live with now So it's a gamble if you go into town depending on whether any "keyholders" are watching. The simple solution would be stay out of town, especially the main places.

Arkadia Misella wrote:I heard the whole "Guards catch her" thing....so I assumed visible guards would have come up to me...not invisible ones. Second...If you are trying to catch someone and they are making it to where you cannot catch then ((i.e. refuse to roleplay that they were caught)) then they are poorly roleplying and should be dealt with ooc. But like I said, Im not mad I am in jail, nor am I mad I was convicted in my trial.....I did what happened and was caught, so I am more than happy to deal with the punishment...I just think the "slapping people in jail instantly" thing needs a little tweaking is all.

Yes I agree it's not perfect, but having the town limits considered as "patrolled" territory and personally evaluating the given situation myself, is the best compromise that available human resources currently allows, as I have already said. Like I said, the only other viable way so far is to distribute "jailing powers" to a significantly larger number of people to be "guards", which is an idea that I doubt GMs will be thrilled about. Maybe better possibilities will become available if the player population gets larger. Go ahead and suggest other solutions if you want, but try to be realistic about it.

The Returner wrote:Dyluck, if you want proof of significant amounts of people leaving.......I do keep ICQ , MSN, AIM and Yahoo logs if you want to see

Dyluck wrote:There is no IC indication of a significant portion of citizens having left Troll's Bane, as it is difficult enough to determine the actual number of citizens in the first place.

Am I not making myself clear or do you not understand the meaning of IC?

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 5:00 am

It is ultimately the keyholders decision, and a trial can be conducted. Since this person is "caught" I think if they run away and the trial decides to punish them to jailtime, teleportation is fine. How many people would you beleive "caught" elaralith? Most people die even attempting to stop her in a peaceful manner, like I said, if they are a known trustworthy person, or a dumb worrior trying to make a name for himself ((errr not pointing to darlok, just good fighters usually have their intelligence at....3?)) this can make all the difference.

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 6:53 am

Gro'bul wrote:It is ultimately the keyholders decision, and a trial can be conducted. Since this person is "caught" I think if they run away and the trial decides to punish them to jailtime, teleportation is fine. How many people would you beleive "caught" elaralith? Most people die even attempting to stop her in a peaceful manner, like I said, if they are a known trustworthy person, or a dumb worrior trying to make a name for himself ((errr not pointing to darlok, just good fighters usually have their intelligence at....3?)) this can make all the difference.

So you want the keyholders to decide who is trustworthy enough to believe "I caught someone" and also decide who is strong enough to catch which criminal? How many people can catch Elaralith? I think I should be asking you how to answer that question if we used your idea, along with a giant list ranking the "strength" of all characters so that I can decide who can catch who.

Elaralith wrote:@Dyluck I also don't like the "magical jailings" you have been handing out...it is annoying and not very good Rp. I think that a warning should be given to the person you are about to jail. Something like this: "There is the criminal after him/her!" That gives the alleged criminal time to run or make an escape. If the keyholder or the keyholder's guards can get close enough to the person to touch him/her then the person could be considered "caught". It is more realistic and better Rp than just having a keyholder seeing the criminal (or worse not seeing him/her at all) and making a technical adjustment that "magically transports" the person to jail.

I'd be happy to oblige if you could please give me some magical guards and the ability to see anywhere/anytime when these guards have touched a criminal. Having only two characters personally chase or supervise the chase of all the criminals isn't logical RP, so the other method as I said, is to hand out jailing powers to significantly more people, which I leave you to weigh the pros and cons.

So unless there's another viable solution, the fact is that a criminal walking in Troll's Bane means running a random risk of being captured, as a "background" feature of that area.

By the way, it's not a very good idea for a criminal to walk into the shop to use the depot of the Silverstar Merchants, which is part of Lyrenzia.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 6:59 am

Ok heres a summery of what I meant. You can decide whether the person was caught or not, have them in "custody" meaning you reserve the right to jail them whenever, and if they run off it's bad rp. The trial commences, verdict is reached, sentence if any carried out.

Arkadia Misella · Post by **Arkadia Misella** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:29 am

Dyluck....why didnt you at least walk up to me or even in my view before you poofed me though?

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:37 am

That doesn't do anything to solve the problem of lack of human resources to conduct and monitor the actual event of "catching" which is the problem in the first place.

However, while taking a shower, I've thought of another alternative.

So give it some time to discuss with the other GMs, and the system might be changed in a while.

One thing to point out though, is that even if the catching of every criminal is done directly by some other characters, it would easily be an advantage from their point of view to hide their identity of being officials and catch you before you knew who they were.

Arkadia Misella · Post by **Arkadia Misella** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:46 am

shoot, wouldnt bother me if I didnt know who they are...just would rather have someone walk up to me is all

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:48 am

@Arkadia: Because as I said, it isn't two citizens who go catch criminals in Troll's Bane, though the ability is controlled mainly by 2 players.

George Bush or Tony Blair don't go out themselves to catch common criminals either. The actual top officials of a government type group just don't to do these kind of things personally (in most cases). At least it doesn't work for my character in this case.

Anyhow as I said I've thought of an alternative, so give it some time.

Crocket · Post by **Crocket** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:50 am

Every single aspect of your character's life is not role played out by you the player. Take for example, sleeping.. Your character never sleeps while you are online. But naturaly they have to sleep sometime. This is one of them things we have to assume happens while you are off line. There are many things that can happen while off line. The act of getting caught and thrown in jail could be one of those "off line" things.

Also, there are a lot of NPCs that we don't actually see. Someone has to go around and clean the town, sweeping the streets, etc. Someone has to do repairs on the buildings from time to time. There has to delivery people who bring goods to and from the shop, gardeners to keep the grape vines and fruit trees in good health, etc. The guards who capture the criminals could be more of these "invisible" NPCs.

Arkadia Misella · Post by **Arkadia Misella** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 7:53 am

Sounds like there are more invisible players than player controlled ones

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 8:15 am

That might actually be true, considering there's only around 10 people online these days, and many of them not in town too

Another thing I want to expand on is when I said to look at it as a "background" feature of the town area.

Take for example, there is a sacred elven village with houses etc in the middle of the forests guarded by old spirits who hated orcs. Therefore the village area has a special technical feature that will zap and instantly kill any orc character that walks on those tiles. Those who choose to be orc characters have to deal with this feature of this area if they try to go in, and it sounds fair enough doesn't it?

The same goes in the town of Troll's Bane for those characters who choose to commit a crime, who then gets caught in the act, and convicted in trial. This is not even nearly as harsh as the elven village example, as the probablity that you don't suffer the consequences are more or less random, and you also have to go through more stages before becoming "wanted".

Arkadia Misella · Post by **Arkadia Misella** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 8:18 am

Elf village? houses? Zapping orcs? When did this happen? What have I missed when I was gone?

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 8:19 am

It was an example only.

Arkadia Misella · Post by **Arkadia Misella** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 8:21 am

well...no elf village exists...but invisible people do...lol...Im so lost now..lol....this is worse than the day in math class when they tried to teach me imaginary numbers....I have never cursed at a teacher so much in my life

Bloodhearte · Post by **Bloodhearte** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 3:30 pm

I think as long as you're in front of the "keyholder," and you're accused of a crime and caught in a main place in town, it's just fine to have a message say something like "The town guard manages to capture you, and you soon awaken in the prison." It wouldn't be intelligent for a criminal to be skulking around the town for no apparent reason, although, it would be very nice if you can somehow conceal yourself away from the town guard by wearing a dark grey cloak and not introducing yourself or something. (But of course, certain players would ruin it and shout out your name no matter how well concealed you are).

Illarion is still in its Alpha phase, so a few cookie cutting elements must be added, but it doesn't mean they are bad ones. We can fight off guards, flee, or whatever when the game gets more advanced.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 10:56 pm

I am still wonder how much lyrenzia payed for these "guards". If you accually payed the gm's for these "guards" Then I think, you can *poof* away at people in the town.