Town leaders get involved or get Lost

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Post by Charlotte-ate-wilbur » Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:27 pm

Town leaders get involved or get Lost

We have only a single active Game master currently. During the time of the previous client players had to run their own towns and there weren't unassailable/untouchable characters that handled leadership. Characters filled positions and paid each other. One of my critical feedback over the past many years is the fact that the Game Masters do not have the time to actually lead the towns, because they are Gms and often busy. These town leaders never pay characters, so logically why would our chars work for them? You can't eat gems (besides they are a tax return not a reward for service), and if you spent your time always helping out the town you're not really playing for yourself to be getting coin or whatever.

I've been saying for a long time that the way things are is illogical and not rp friendly. We want to focus on roleplay friendly features, start here: remove the the Leaders or get people to play them but even then if more than one person plays a leader we start to see the leaders acting oddly, or not how they normally would (Like the Queen arresting her knight for defending himself against a cultist one day but the next thank him for his great service). The roleplay coming from our faction leaders has been inconsistent and ugly.

If the faction leaders are to be a positive and good aspect of the game the Rp needs to be consistent and fair. Characters should get paid for the time they put into helping their town, otherwise there's no roleplay incentive. We need to stop treating the game like it's just mechanics, such a mentality is destroying the game. We need more realism and cohesive story-telling roleplay. If we really cannot manage this then we should have already considered reverting factions to purely player based, let us do our own thing. By doing so the Game master(s) have the full time to create quests or to moderate or even for time to play themselves so they can add more to the game instead of dealing with all the people saying "We can't do anything, there's no gm to push us along and give us direction" seeing as Gobaith client didn't have this issue, characters would push rp plots without ever needing a gm, interacting with other groups and towns and providing a never ceasing story. Now we need a Gm to lead us everywhere.

TL;DR Faction leaders need to be played by one consistent roleplayer who will pay characters for their services. It is not logical that everyone works for free and it is not roleplay friendly for faction leaders to act differently toward people based on who's playing them. Reform the way faction leaders are handled or get rid of them entirely.

PS: A True sandbox would bring life rather than continue to destroy the game... I'm not the only one who has said this in the course of like 3-4 years.

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Post by Lia » Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:44 pm

Re: Town leaders get involved or get Lost

So that we have the chaos again as in Troll's Bane?

There are reasons why players are no longer Townleaders, rather NPC / GM. Do not know anymore which exactly but partly because of the chaotic conditions back then.

Apart from that, the line is in some ways already in the hands of players. in Cadomyr it is the Noble houses (the queen herself is rarely active, Gms observes the activities of the players and acts with the Townleaders if necessary)
In Galmair the Chancellor and in Runewick the Academic Council. So there are ways to do something. Without that one would have to abolish the NPCs Don, Queen and Archmage.

You just have to make an effort and not put your hands in your lap and wait for the other to do what you want.


Power is also a form of payment. Paying from the Twonleader to the characters with high rank.
And the characters with high rank can pay other characters for work if they want. or not. That's an IC thing.



(hope my english is understandable ^^)

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Post by Charlotte-ate-wilbur » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:01 pm

Re: Town leaders get involved or get Lost

The best times I've ever had playing Illarion was the chaos of Trolls Bane. There was always something going on and there were Guards, a Magistrate etc. It didn't always work perfectly, but with many people who could get things done in rp.

The faction leaders are a conduit for abuse. We've seen in the past favortism and harassment by Leaders (ie banning people for no reason or taking ooc info and banning people for it, or how about the time when one day a knight is arrested for defending against a cultist who attacked him at the necktie but the next the same queen thanks him and congrats but can't release him from house arrest cus a more senior gm put him there)

Unfortunately questionable actions of players will always be a problem, letting that ruin fun for other's is a bad game decision.

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Post by Kugar » Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:31 pm

Re: Town leaders get involved or get Lost

Lia wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:44 pm
So that we have the chaos again as in Troll's Bane?
I can't fathom why you look back on the times of Trollsbane being a bad thing. We had more players and it was tons of fun. Logging in was a real treat. Pure nostalgia. I'm sure the game masters had good intentions when they changed things, if not a bit selfish, but like most spearheads in any movement (political or otherwise) most of them left or became inactive and imo the direction they took things was to the detriment of the game.Not trying to bash the current developers and gms, they're a talented bunch of people who're working with the current system. It's kind of like when a government leaves and a new government comes in and has to clean up the mess the previous guys left. Hopefully Illarion can be really successful again. It doesn't help that times change and so does the online climate for such games. But one thing is for sure - players like to have a big sense of control and cherish their time more now because life is more of an info dump, sensory overload and quite chaotic. Think twitter. People's heads are constantly being filled with useless nonsense so in order to lure a player in and immerse them in a game like Illarion, the incentives have to be huge.

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Post by Karrock » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:04 pm

Re: Town leaders get involved or get Lost

I wrote before several times that work for free for the towns officials is hopeless rp. But people pretend to show they are not greedy and accept work for free in their opinions. I doubt it because the numbers show that guards of Galmair and other roleplayed emploes almost never are online. People must get a reward for their rp-work. The argument that there is not such income from the taxes is bad. Towns posses also npcs. Those what we see and those mob what we don't. Towns should have each real month a budget for jobs that cannot be played mechanically. Like masses helders, a cleaners of the streets etc. But when I asked why they force me to accept work as the hangman for free? They told did I see any hangs recently? Remove this hopeless arguments.

First solve the jobs problem, because without this being solved, each town managed by a players would end like Runewick where actually the main leader was Djironnyma and nothing was possible except death from a boring.
And the characters with high rank can pay other characters for work if they want. or not. That's an IC thing.
They never pay. Game must force them to bring the numbers online, because currently the game is fun only for the few priviliged.

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Post by Lia » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:12 pm

Re: Town leaders get involved or get Lost

Karrock wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:04 pm
They never pay. Game must force them to bring the numbers online, because currently the game is fun only for the few priviliged.
Why should they pay? Did you ever ask them if it is everytime funny to play a high ranked Character? Seems not.

@ Kugar And what about the players who are suddenly just left wordless in the middle of a plot? For example, because they were kidnapped, but their kidnappers just silently goes inactive?

So far i see. Some Players look at what they do not have and are offended when they need to work things out. But do not want to do anything against the problem they complain about.

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Post by Charlotte-ate-wilbur » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:23 pm

Re: Town leaders get involved or get Lost

What's with the hostile tone Lia? Please keep feedback focused and constructive.

My question is, what logic would any character have for joining a town where they get they do not get paid for their work, yet still pay taxes. The tax return is the most dangerous weapon on the continent. Rank really doesn't put you above anyone else unless you hold a 'special' rank you cannot even achieve my normal means.

Game mechanics aside, in a pure roleplay ideal this makes no sense. You don't tax people and pay them nothing for the work they do! Thats really just crazy. We need to treat the game like it's an rp game and not Runescape, cus I can go play Runescape to play Runescape....

Edit: @ Lia You mention how it's not even fun to play a high ranking character, thats not what this is about at all. But since you bring that up this is exactly one of my points, as you work for the town not getting paid, but paying taxes out of money you earn on the side, all those hours helping out fellow town members or patrolling the town get you nothing. You increase in rank and guess what you get? More responsibility, more things you have to pay for, less things for you. Still not getting paid, still not logical in a roleplay sense.
Last edited by Charlotte-ate-wilbur on Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Karrock » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:24 pm

Re: Town leaders get involved or get Lost

Because only idiot in the real world work for free. This is a poor, weak roleplay. And here free jobs no one do. Sometimes if there is a need everyone do everything for free. The main problem is with players who cannot rp and bring and make everything for free for "their town". Result is in that that they play an one hour a month or even less. The job take for free characters who even don't show up. They ruin jobs economy. Taking a job should mean held a weekly/monthly event or join it regulary.

Teach players to require the payment!

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Post by Lia » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:31 pm

Re: Town leaders get involved or get Lost

It's a pure IC thing to pay someone for a job or not. Likewise, it's an IC thing if someone wants money for a job or not.

Because here the comparison with Real world was drawn. Your parents also raised, nourished, clothed, protected you and nursed you when you were ill.
That's a hell of a lot of work. Did you ever pay for it? ;)

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Post by Brightrim » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:49 pm

Re: Town leaders get involved or get Lost

The so called "chaos" of Troll's Bane was the golden time of RP.

If we could get a single town with no GM leaders where the players need to decide things between themselves on their own, that'd be great.

Screw gem rewards per town and the so called "balance" of resources and crafting tools. That just feels like it's being balanced entirely on the engine aspect, and not based on a sandbox-true RP experience. Like, why can't Cadomyr have a kitchen for cooking?

Desert towns that do not have farm lands would import ingredients in large batches and still cook things themselves in reality, but in Illarion for some reason we are incapable of cooking and baking our own meals as desert dwellers, just because we can not produce ingredients on our own? How does it make sense that we have to import fully prepared meals from the other realms, especially in an era without fridges (ignoring the magic of depots which doesn't seem to have a clear IG explanation of whether it is IC or OOC that food in those never rots or gets cold/warm). I mean back on Gobaith we could sit around a campfire and cook while talking and having our characters eat the meals fresh, not eat year old plates of food that was made in a batch.

And why can't we have settlements like the farmer's union of the past, merely in the name of an ooc notion of balancing our resources? It'd make sense in a normal RPG, but not really in a pure RP focused game.

TL;DR:
Troll's Bane and Gobaith in general was great. This game is too focused on GM leadership, while development is too focused on prioritizing a so called "Balance" over things that would actually make sense and grant freedom to our RPers.

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:52 pm

Re: Town leaders get involved or get Lost

Just a reminder to please read the words of how to place a proposal. Anything not conductive to the proposal at hand can be sent via PM otherwise may be removed. Flaming or cutting another player is against game rules. It may be advisable to read those also. Thank you for all your ideas.

I read a lot of negatives.. positive ones are appreciated also...

Thanks for all your input to the original proposal.
Achae

PS This is a proposal not a debate. Thanks again!

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Post by Karrock » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:58 pm

Re: Town leaders get involved or get Lost

And why can't we have settlements like the farmer's union of the past, merely in the name of an ooc notion of balancing our resources? It'd make sense in a normal RPG, but not really in a pure RP focused game.

Actually people don't want it. What forces them to live in the towns except gems? You must work for your static tools or a depot as a team. Devs would be forced to accept it if they see the numbers.

Anyway the guild like farmers union does not need to drop citizenship. I tried to create one but people are lazy and don't want to work for their reward (like a depot). No one will place a depot in the empty place.

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Post by Slightly » Wed Feb 20, 2019 7:56 am

Re: Town leaders get involved or get Lost

It has long been said the NPC rulers are figureheads, so don't actually need to play any significant part at all. They are a background structure whilst the active politics and leadership should come from players. Elizabeth II does not get embroiled in the day-to-day politics of the UK... we have a government to create the chaos that is Brexit :roll:

Whilst I appreciate there have been issues in the past a proposal needs to reflect on the current situation as that is what any change would alter. At the moment the NPC rulers are extremely consistent... they have stayed out of town affairs leaving it to the player leaders to see who takes up the mantle and pushes forward.

If player leaders become inactive I can step in to facilitate a replacement where necessary, but unless there is an obvious candidate realised through in character actions a vacuum is likely to remain in hope of triggering some reaction... preferably in game :wink:


With regard to money:
Certainly in my experience as a player leader in Bane there was no payment - we had no access to the taxes collected. Any funds for projects or payment were generated through donations.

Today player leaders have access to funds generated from rent. If they choose to give free or reduced-rate housing that is player choice. Perhaps petition the relevant characters if you wish the public funds to be spent in a certain way?

Galmair also generates income from elections. Nothing prevents player rulers from generating their own budget however they see fit. They could hold public accounts of a treasury as I once did in Bane. Again nothing prevents other players from petitioning their leaders to do this or anything else related to public finances.

Although some characters may have a reason for apparently 'working for free', nothing prevents others from demanding payment for services. People will probably only pay if you deliver a worthwhile service though. Also, bear in mind it can be a lot of work to make the books balance; the idea of one individual can easily blow the budget and leave others facing the consequences. Best idea is to try it though.


Basically...

Don't pay too much attention to the NPC ruler... they really don't care what you do if it doesn't disrupt their easy life. They can sit there caressing their precious gems while your character get on with living - there is a sandbox there for those brave enough to notice it. Politics does not need a GM and is probably the biggest RP generator.

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Post by Katharina Brightrim » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:00 pm

Re: Town leaders get involved or get Lost

As a player of a town-leader char, I can confirm that there's a budget that can be used by the leaders for whatever they see fitting. Katharina once offered the chance to turn in ideas what to do with those coins. Guess how many turned something in? One char did. Katharina still has like... 95% of the coins the Queen once gave Srrt (Or maybe even Annabeth, I am not sure), cause nobody steps forwards to propose things. Yes, the leader- characters (mainly the player-controlled) are meant to lead. But they are not meant to think for other chars, to masticate everything for other chars or to entertain other chars without input from their side. You want something done IC? Put some effort into it. Since I am playing Katharina as a noble in Cadomyr, I held several open meetings to hear the citizen and their ideas/wishes/proposals. You know why I stopped it? Cause nobody ever showed up for those meetings. You want your char to be paid for their loyal deeds to a realm? Then serve the realm, make proposals to improve it, step forwards and ask the player leader-chars for help (be it financial or influence-wise). But you cannot expect that your char will be fed without a reason or at least some effort. We do not need GM-leader-chars usually, people just have to get away from thinking that things are only official when they are confirmed by a GM. Each town has player-leaders, start to accept them as what they are, leaders. If you want to get away from NPC-leaders, that's the way to go. On a side-note, why would the town-leaders help their citizen if they do not help them? Right now there's a hospital-construction in Cadomyr going on. Nobody but two chars (besides my own and my char's fiance) delivered any required materials for it (this was a good chance for people to get a good payment for their honest work, nobody took that chance). The first step (which was an RP-event in which chars could have proven their worth for the realm btw) could not be accomplished, cause from my experience most people only join events when they see that it's either a GM-quest or a quest that promises to fight and loot treasures (that's legit, don't get me wrong, everybody has their own preferences and nobody has time to join every event, I get that.)

About RP-work-payment: Demand it IC, if you feel like your char should be paid for their work. Protest IC about bad work-conditions and put some pressure on the leader-chars until they pay your chars a fair wage. Be the town-guard who lays down their weapons instead of defending the town, cause they feel like not getting enough money for their work. Personally I think that you should not rp just to be rewarded, the rp itself should be reward enough, but if you want your char to be paid, do something about it IC, instead of complaining OOCly about how unfair your chars are treated.

Another point are independent factions like the Farmer's Union, Varshikar, Greenbriar, the Grey Rose, whatever. I totally like the idea of those independent factions and think that it would be nice to be able to have them back. But here again, you have to put in some effort. You cannot just say: "Hi, I am XYZ and this is my land now, obey my rules." That's no effort at all, that's not even a concept that could work for longer than 2 weeks. Why would any realm accept the existence of a potential competitor or even rogue state if not getting an advantage from it as well? Found the Farmer's Union 2, who offers Cadomyr to provide them with food in exchange of protection and legitimation. Be a Galmairian military outpost, that ensures Galmair the protection of the northern wood and then becomes independent once they are strong enough. You cannot expect that it goes "poof, here's your piece of the cake, enjoy and do whatever you want." out of nowhere. But actually those independent factions need a compromise between the devs, who should not be against them per se, but also from the players who want to found them, who should not expect to get everything for free.

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Post by Karrock » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:35 pm

Re: Town leaders get involved or get Lost

Katharina Ross wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:00 pm
Another point are independent factions like the Farmer's Union, Varshikar, Greenbriar, the Grey Rose, whatever. I totally like the idea of those independent factions and think that it would be nice to be able to have them back. But here again, you have to put in some effort. You cannot just say: "Hi, I am XYZ and this is my land now, obey my rules." That's no effort at all, that's not even a concept that could work for longer than 2 weeks. Why would any realm accept the existence of a potential competitor or even rogue state if not getting an advantage from it as well? Found the Farmer's Union 2, who offers Cadomyr to provide them with food in exchange of protection and legitimation. Be a Galmairian military outpost, that ensures Galmair the protection of the northern wood and then becomes independent once they are strong enough. You cannot expect that it goes "poof, here's your piece of the cake, enjoy and do whatever you want." out of nowhere. But actually those independent factions need a compromise between the devs, who should not be against them per se, but also from the players who want to found them, who should not expect to get everything for free.


Now situation has changed. Devs might see that players work can and should change the world, but the most problem is within players. They don't want to work for their reward. VBU has teached them that only mechanics are sufficient here. They mostly lack any wanting to achieve any goals. Almost no one join a mini faction outside the town because of lack depot and static tools. This looks hopeless. The guilt is within players I think. And like I wrote the most (except bandits camps or cultists) settlements don't need to drop their citizenship and gems income. Farmers Union was the great guild, but when I tried to settle in Yewdale no one joined.

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Post by Lia » Wed Feb 20, 2019 3:38 pm

Re: Town leaders get involved or get Lost

Katharina Ross wrote:
Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:00 pm
As a player of a town-leader char, I can confirm that there's a budget that can be used by the leaders for whatever they see fitting. Katharina once offered the chance to turn in ideas what to do with those coins. Guess how many turned something in? One char did. Katharina still has like... 95% of the coins the Queen once gave Srrt (Or maybe even Annabeth, I am not sure), cause nobody steps forwards to propose things. Yes, the leader- characters (mainly the player-controlled) are meant to lead. But they are not meant to think for other chars, to masticate everything for other chars or to entertain other chars without input from their side. You want something done IC? Put some effort into it. Since I am playing Katharina as a noble in Cadomyr, I held several open meetings to hear the citizen and their ideas/wishes/proposals. You know why I stopped it? Cause nobody ever showed up for those meetings. You want your char to be paid for their loyal deeds to a realm? Then serve the realm, make proposals to improve it, step forwards and ask the player leader-chars for help (be it financial or influence-wise). But you cannot expect that your char will be fed without a reason or at least some effort. We do not need GM-leader-chars usually, people just have to get away from thinking that things are only official when they are confirmed by a GM. Each town has player-leaders, start to accept them as what they are, leaders. If you want to get away from NPC-leaders, that's the way to go. On a side-note, why would the town-leaders help their citizen if they do not help them? Right now there's a hospital-construction in Cadomyr going on. Nobody but two chars (besides my own and my char's fiance) delivered any required materials for it (this was a good chance for people to get a good payment for their honest work, nobody took that chance). The first step (which was an RP-event in which chars could have proven their worth for the realm btw) could not be accomplished, cause from my experience most people only join events when they see that it's either a GM-quest or a quest that promises to fight and loot treasures (that's legit, don't get me wrong, everybody has their own preferences and nobody has time to join every event, I get that.)

About RP-work-payment: Demand it IC, if you feel like your char should be paid for their work. Protest IC about bad work-conditions and put some pressure on the leader-chars until they pay your chars a fair wage. Be the town-guard who lays down their weapons instead of defending the town, cause they feel like not getting enough money for their work. Personally I think that you should not rp just to be rewarded, the rp itself should be reward enough, but if you want your char to be paid, do something about it IC, instead of complaining OOCly about how unfair your chars are treated.





true

This is the same experience that I did. Although not as a leader character but I have characters that were close to the leader. Due to rank or personal reasons.
And there you get what happens and what does not happen. As Katharina already wrote. If people not come, you can not do anything.

We are all not clairvoyants. :mrgreen:

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Post by Lancealot » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:30 pm

Re: Town leaders get involved or get Lost

About RP-work-payment: Demand it IC, if you feel like your char should be paid for their work. Protest IC about bad work-conditions and put some pressure on the leader-chars until they pay your chars a fair wage. Be the town-guard who lays down their weapons instead of defending the town, cause they feel like not getting enough money for their work. Personally I think that you should not rp just to be rewarded, the rp itself should be reward enough, but if you want your char to be paid, do something about it IC, instead of complaining OOCly about how unfair your chars are treated.

I don't see this working in any level to be honest. Fair enough, you can make IC actions about not being payed. But have you ever went to your boss in real life and asked for payment? No, we go to work because we know there is a certain guaranteed payment waiting for us. People tend to not take work unless they know there will be somekind of reward, be it disposition towards someone, reputation, or money. Now, it is true it's OOCly enough reward that RP happens, but that was never the point in the first place i believe, rather that it doesn't make sense ICly your character is working for free. hence the payment doesn't need to be big, nominal is enough in my opinion. It just needs to exist for it to make ICly sense.

Regarding NPC leaders, I agree with Slightly here. NPC rulers are mostly never seen,they are more consistent and they mostly make sure there's no vacant leadership. there is certainly problems at the moment making it harder to create player led towns/villages/areas, such as players wanting to have depots all the time, but i don't see why would current NPC leaders rule out player led factions/areas.

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Wed Feb 20, 2019 11:34 pm

Re: Town leaders get involved or get Lost

oocly I know when the GM is available and my character has never been ignored regarding a question of the town. As far as coins, she takes coins when needed usually by bribe but also has Chancellor coins in Galmair which at the end of her time discusses with everyone that cares to come to election what they are used for. The guards have also been offered pay by the Chancellors...

As far as availability, there is a GM available every day 365 days a year. which is more then we have ever had in Galmair according to my efforts to get in contact. Other town leaders seem to come and go. I like to think my character is available at least by PM if not in game. I have also seen leaders in Cadomyr and Runewick however nothing is keeping anyone from working on becoming a leader.

I'm not exactly sure what the proposal is suggesting because I don't see the problem. Perhaps others though will have something positive to contribute. I do agree with some that in game is the place to make some changes.

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