Change proposal: Only common items for NPC traders

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:00 pm

Change proposal: Only common items for NPC traders

Dear all,

originally, it was planned that NPC traders do not trade high level items. Due to simplifications and reasons I cannot recall anymore, this was not implemented by me and NPC traders trade practically any item in the game. I propose to let NPC traders buy and sell only common items (below level 90). Those do not require pure elements.

Pro:
  • Player to player trade encouraged as best items not available for money
  • Influx of money to the game reduced as most valuable items cannot be turned into money
Con:
  • Valuable high level items might pile up in depots, reducing market price
  • No way to monetarise high level items, only donation possible
  • Less motivation to accumulate money as there is nothing valuable you can buy in the end
  • Money sink effect of NPC traders reduced
The effort for this change is low to marginal. Original change proposal is from Seajiha, to give credit to the right person.

Best regards,
Estralis

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Wed Aug 08, 2018 7:00 pm

Re: Change proposal: Only common items for NPC traders

Sounds like this might be worth a try with more players in the future.

Have you seen how many master craftsmen were online to be able to make the higher end products? I don't think this will encourage them to play either. With the limited amount of players we have this would simply be discouraging to those that wish.. or we could do like we used to do and send an ooc message to so and so to make something? This in my opinion doesn't encourage more roleplay and makes it harder for those that actually do play to get the items they need/wish.

My two cents is this is taking something away from the game as it is and won't add anything very useful in return.

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Post by Rincewind » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:09 pm

Re: Change proposal: Only common items for NPC traders

How to get rid of the Cons (maybe):

Uncommon Gear can still be sold. ~ NPCs do not sell it it anymore.

This way I could even make more profit with my artisan and will have customers who are OK with getting "only the second best stuff" (meaning not perfect quality).

I am positive that this would encourage Players to log in with artisans and train those skills, because a lot of coin could be created out of it. I fail to see why my coin should become useless because of this.

Will it influence the amount or quality of Role-play one can experience in the Game? Probably not.

All the Best Rincewind

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Post by snus-mumrik » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:10 pm

Re: Change proposal: Only common items for NPC traders

I think that selling high-level items to NPCs should remain possible.
I never tried leveling up in the crafts too much, but I guess it requires making quite a lot of items - much more than players would want to buy (no matter how many active players there are, as active players may also be crafters). And having to make totally useless items is a game-breaker imho.

As for buying items from NPC, I agree that today it's somewhat too easy.
I don't know how hard it is to find a master crafter, but I do think that the need for them would encourage some activity and communication, like knowing who is the right person for the task, or trying to attract crafters to your realm, or paying someone to learn crafting so that he can make some item for you.

As far as I understand, it is currently very easy to implement that items up to level X are available, and then not.
But ideally I would like some gradual decline as the level goes up - either the quality to go lower or the chance to see it available in stock to go lower. I wonder how hard is one of those to implement?

Edit:
Rincewind was quicker :)

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Post by GolfLima » Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:29 pm

Re: Change proposal: Only common items for NPC traders

* as far as i know there are some mastercrafter sometimes ig and can be reached "via dove"
* if NPCs selling "master items" there is no more need for master crafter
* i have a lot of master items (non perfect) that are not sellable - no one would like to have them
* i know a lot of char. that have already master items - so they dont need to buy more of them
* i would propose NPC´s selling only up to lvl80 things and buying all lvl things

- sorry for bad english and that i wrote only in points
- blue collored is new
Last edited by GolfLima on Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Charlotte-ate-wilbur » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:48 am

Re: Change proposal: Only common items for NPC traders

I have some critical feedback about this.

Since I've been adventuring a bit more with my char I get alot of loot of what you would call 'uncommon items' all of which are of inferior quality unless retrieved from a treasure map (even then high quality items are fairly rare). Player characters do not want to buy high end items at average,low, or even sub-par quality. So if traders did not buy these items there would not be much point to hunting/adventuring since player characters would not buy these uncommon items either as there is no incentive to do so, not to mention the low playerbase doesn't encourage much of a trading economy. Should npc traders stop buying these things the only thing these items will be useful for from a player characters standpoint is to donate them to the town, that should not be the only remotely profitable way to handle these items.

I do however like Rincewind's proposal to stop selling these items but continue to buy them, why? Well player characters don't really buy high end items from vendors anyway because the quality is jusst as bad as hunting for these uncommon items.

Basically the consequences of npc traders no longer buying these items means that the term 'loot' doesn't exist in illarion unless you're doing treasure maps or gm quests. Look at plenty of other games that have ways to collect junk to sell to vendors for your gold flow.. It's called Adventuring in a fantasy game, you kill monsters and get loot to sell to vendors while you look out for the really nice pieces to keep. Deviating from this concept is a poor decision in my opinion.

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Post by Brightrim » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:05 pm

Re: Change proposal: Only common items for NPC traders

Rincewind wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 8:09 pm
Uncommon Gear can still be sold. ~ NPCs do not sell it it anymore.

This way I could even make more profit with my artisan and will have customers who are OK with getting "only the second best stuff" (meaning not perfect quality)."


I think this would be the best solution. Currently people only want perfect (some make do with excellent) quality gear, and if they are in such desperate need that they need gear of any quality as long as it suits their level, they will just as well not "bother" with roleplay and just buy it from a vendor instead, unless they are very low on coin and need a cheaper price.
However if crafters can not sell their more lousy products, same for people going treasure hunting, too much of it will end up piling up because of the odds of making good quality gear being too low, and the market value would drop.
Though I would argue that as long as it can still be sold, just not bought, even setting the limit to level 50 items and not 90, could improve the situation.
Maybe the NPC merchants that buy these higher level goods, but do not sell them, just suddenly had a huge demand from overseas offering much better prices for any gear above level 50, so they buy it cheap and sell it off overseas.

Though another point on the master crafter items not being in demand is that you can relatively easily get level 100 perfect or excellent quality gear from treasure maps, and that is often cheaper/easier to get than the crafted version due to a combination of how rare pure elements are and how many times you have to make the same item when at a level 100 craft in order to get a perfect/excellent result, resulting in many very good or below quality pieces of gear that no one but vendors want to buy, and who's vendor prices are so low that if you want to make back the coin lost on all those expensive elements, you either have to sell for a really high price (which you can not due to certain people with stockpiled gear in the game right now making it dirt cheap to get your hands on) or grind out the elements yourself (spend hours powergaming a gathering craft in chances of the right element dropping).

So I think there are far too many problems with how things work to make the in game market function properly (right now it's basically people having all their needs met by a few people who spend a lot more time powergaming than others and thus making their wares far cheaper and more varied than any other character), but that making it so that NPCs can only buy and not sell higher level gear is imo definitely in the right direction, while making it so that NPCs can not buy higher level gear is not.

In an attempt to be more constructive about the problems I see, even if the solutions I come up with may not be too feasible:
1.
Problem:
Getting gear from NPC merchants

Solution:
Have NPCs buy everything, but only sell things at level 50 or below. I'd also suggest that in the case of food wares, the best +2 +2 stat items are only available from players. RP reason mentioned above.

What would hopefully be achieved:
Roleplay interaction between players will be required to obtain gear above level 50, or food that gives +2+2 stats.

2.
Problem:
Treasure hunting to get your master gear.

Solution:
Make master gear from treasure hunts rarer, and only allow it to have excellent quality or below, leaving the perfect gear for crafters to make.
Exceptions:
Drow gear and anything else that crafters can not make should be possible to obtain in perfect quality from treasure hunts.

What would hopefully be achieved:
More demand for master gear from players, rather than people treasure hunting to get theirs.

3. Now this is the major problem I see.

Problem:
People stockpiling

Solution:
Make items, even when in the depot, have an expiry date.Think of it as a more long-term repair system, that runs even when you are offline.
The exception being magical gems, pure elements and items with custom description, or any other especially rare item. Though items with custom descriptions would need another system, like having it be "broken" upon expiry date so that you wont lose it but have to pay for a repair, or else everyone would just get a custom description on all their gear to avoid the expiry date).

Examples of expiry dates:
Armor, jewelry, clothes and weapons - 1 IG year (4 IRL months)
Food and potions - 3 IG months (1 IRL month)
Resources - 9 IG months (3 IRL months)


What I would hope to achieve with that:
A more dynamic marketplace, with room for more people of all occupations.
Gatherers would gather upon demand, rather than stockpiling a lot for selling whenever anyone who needs it comes along. People who want to grind in the mines all day could still do that, but they would be forced to either sell the raw material within 3 months (or whatever the decided time frame would be) or make it into equipment to sell.
Cooks and alchemists would need to get their resources from herbalists and farmers, as they won't have insane stockpiles of everything needed anymore, and won't be able to stockpile food and potions for sale either. They would have to plan ahead, just like in real life, how much they expect to sell, or take orders and make wares on demand. However, ideally, they would not even get the chance to stockpile either as with an expiry on food and potions, people won't have endless stockpiles of it anymore like they do these days, making cooks and alchemists more needed even in times of less activity.
Crafters that make gear would also be on a more equal ground. No smith could craft a hundred sets of armor to keep in case anyone needs it. People would be best served to craft an item on demand so that the expiry date is fresh, and so they do not waste their resources and time only to have to vendor the item when no one wants it because it's too close to expiry.
All in all consumers and crafters would require more interactions and more often, rather than just stockpiling everything. Food would rot, potions would go bad, ingots corrode, armor would become beyond repair and swords would break in half. Consumers would have to regularly stock up on food, potions and semi-regularly have to replace their gear. Repairing is rather often right now, but it is not as crucial to the market as it would be if the consumers had to replace their gear completely at some point.
This way you would still get people stockpiling gold, elements, and other rare things, but at least people would not have depots full of everything anymore and thus preventing the economy to coming to a complete low and standstill like it pretty much is these days in the game.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:19 pm

Re: Change proposal: Only common items for NPC traders

Dear all,

very good discussion, please keep it up! I see some strong points against NPCs not buying high level items brought up. I see fewer points brought up against NPCs not selling high level items as the impact seems to be much lower; is my understanding correct that barely anyone buys high level items from NPCs anyway?

If something is not broken, the best change is no change, of course. But what we should keep in mind is that Illarion became a little too convenient, too easy and dull. It is a natural reaction of players to try to reduce challenges and restrictions but without those, motivation to play a game might also drop.

So if we decide to keep everything as is, what other options do you see to bring in more challenges to the game that are fun to overcome in the game with respect to the NPC traders?

Estralis

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Post by Katharina Brightrim » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:03 pm

Re: Change proposal: Only common items for NPC traders

I like Brightrim's third propsal. It would make Illa less about collecting stuff until you cannot find anything in your depot and more about rp again. And it would mean that people do not buy something once and then never again (like armors), but have to buy it again. (-> said dynamic economy)

But here's my personal long-time-problem: People would not buy a new (lets say) armor. No, they just smith it by their own. And then make their own wooden shield. And their new robe. Cause chars in Illa are multi-talented. And this is what destroys the economy more than anything else. Why would you buy stuff (no matter whether it's from a NPC or a player) when you just can create it by your own and do not have to pay anything for it? I know, that's not the point here, but it is connected. So I am asking for what I ask everytime: Give Illarion a skillcap. Make it (idk) 500 skill-level each char can gather. People would have to decide what to spend their "points" for instead of just maxing all skill one by one. Really, there's nothing I hate more ig than having the chance to trade something for once and then having a PGer-char standing right next to you, giving everything for free/half the prize, in every craft. "Oh, Char XY purchases 50 copper coins for a sword? Here, have 100 of it for free. And take those 200 cakes in case you get hungry and 100 dresses in case one of yours get dirty. Oh no, do not pay me, I am wealthy enough." Really, that sucks.


But yeah, I drifted off, limiting the amount of items NPCs can trade is a good step and should be implemented (for all items lvl 50+). Make the game more about char-to-char-cooperation again.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:02 pm

Re: Change proposal: Only common items for NPC traders

Maybe a pretty radical thought but what if NPCs sell only the most basic items or none at all? Might result in a significant inflation but we could think it through.

Treasure maps I noted. They should be rewarding but maybe not in the way they are now.

A skill cap has been discussed in the past. I doubt anyone would draw candles anymore or shear sheep with a skill cap in place. We might think about something more creative. Illarion is an indy game so uncommon ideas are welcome. I'd go more into a direction if tagging skills you can master, so everyone could build his own class. If we really want to add constraints to our class free game that is

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Post by Lia » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:26 pm

Re: Change proposal: Only common items for NPC traders

Da mein Englisch nicht gut genug ist schreibe ich einfach mal das was ich denke, in deutsch.
Und hoffe das ich nichts wiederhole was bereits geschrieben wurde.

Ich finde NPC sollten auch Items von hohem Level verkaufen.

Zum einen wegen dem was Katharina bereits angemerkt hat....das jeder es selbst macht zum anderen da wir einfach zu wenig Spieler sind.

Für Neulinge wird es schwierig einen Spieler zu finden der ihm das benötige Item anfertigt weil er noch nicht weiß wer was kann.
Natürlich das kann man heraus finden, aber selbst wenn er es heraus gefunden hat muss er die Person auch noch antreffen.

Jetzt ist es schon oft schwer überhaupt jemand zu finden.

Vielleicht kann man es anstatt wie Katharina schreibt mit Skillpunkten begrenzen es einfach auf eine bestimmte Anzahl von Berufen beschränken.

Bsp pro Charakter 2 Berufe ( damit meine ich alle Skills mit denen man fertige Items herstellen kann. Also Bäcker, Koch, Schreiner, Alchemist , Schneider)
( Nicht Dinge die wie Ackerbau, Bergbau, Holz fällen)


Was Schätze angeht. So lohnend sind sie nicht.

Kleine Schätze hebt kaum einer noch, lohnt sich nicht, Und bei mittleren, großen Schätzen...naja erfahren Kämpfer Charaktere heben sie zum Großteil allein.
Also sollte man eher die Monster ein wenig anpassen, damit Schatz suchen wieder Gruppenarbeit wird.
Das fördert RP und die Schatzitems fallen nicht an einen Spieler allein.

Ps: Bei dingen die die Meinung aller Spieler betreffen sollte man die "Umfrage" bzw das Thema vielleicht in beiden Sprachen schreiben. Damit auch JEDER verstehen kann um was es geht und es nicht erst entziffern muss oder gleich abgeschreckt ist weil er es nicht versteht.

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Post by Katharina Brightrim » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:17 am

Re: Change proposal: Only common items for NPC traders

You say new players do not know where to buy stuff. But they would have 50 (or in the initial propsal 90) level time to find somebody, that's enough time.


And about the skillcap, what if we say each char has 300 Points for crafting skills (like smithing, tailoring, etc). That way chars can either become multi-talents with lvl 30 in each craft or they focus on three crafts (tho, maybe that's already too much). And I for my part would like constraints in our free class-system. This Game is meant to be about rp, not about playing it as a Singleplayer.

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Post by Lia » Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:48 am

Re: Change proposal: Only common items for NPC traders

Ein neuer Spieler wird keine Wochen abwarten bis er jemand findet. Er ist innerhalb paar Tagen weg.

Sofern Illarion noch den Schwerpunkt auf Rollenspiel legt und nicht auf farmen und Leveln wie jedes andere MMORPG dann kommen Leute hier auch her für RPG.

Und wenn man keines findet geht man wieder. Wenn man in einem Spiel nicht weiter kommt geht man wieder.

300 Punkte für crafting skills könnte dennoch für 3 Berufe reichen. Deshalb wäre es sinniger die Berufe direkt zu beschränken anstatt es über Skillpunkte zu machen.

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Post by Drugar Stonesmasher » Fri Aug 10, 2018 8:33 am

Re: Change proposal: Only common items for NPC traders

Brightrim wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 6:05 pm

Examples of expiry dates:
Armor, jewelry, clothes and weapons - 1 IG year (4 IRL months)
Food and potions - 3 IG months (1 IRL month)
Resources - 9 IG months (3 IRL months)

i have a very mixed opinion on this, because while i see benefits there are also drawbacks.

Concerning potions for example: potions with rare herbs will drop into nonexistence.



also a thing that may happen:
people log out with all their stock of rare herbs and elements (i suppose they drop under resources) in their backpack or on the body.
And if you include that as well a charakter who has not been there for a year comes back quite naked.

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Post by Lia » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:33 am

Re: Change proposal: Only common items for NPC traders

Der Punkt den Drugar angesprochen hat ( Der Vorschlag von Brightrim) ist nicht Spieler fördernd. Ich seh das also ähnlich wie Drugar .

Wir alle haben nun mal ein Real Life. Wir können mal mehr und mal weniger spielen.
Das wir deshalb dann ic quasi bestraft werden ist kontraproduktiv.

Und wenn man dann RL bedingt eine Weile nicht spielen kann oder will, und dann on kommt aber massig Items verloren hat ist das frustrierend.

Abgesehen von dem RL Punkt.

Nicht Jeder hortet Items um sich zu bereichern.

Bsp: Ich sammel erst meine Materialen um einen Vorrat anzulegen damit ich Material da habe wenn ich etwas herstellen muss.
Sonst muss man , wann immer jemand etwas hergestellt haben möchte erstmal wieder Materialen sammeln.

Das ist eher frustrierend als fördernd. Und bei seltenen Items mehr als unpassend.

Kurzum ich sehe nur negatives darin. ( für mich persönlich wäre das sogar ein Grund zu überlegen ganz aufzuhören)

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Post by Katharina Brightrim » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:14 pm

Re: Change proposal: Only common items for NPC traders

Lia wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:33 am
Nicht Jeder hortet Items um sich zu bereichern.
Why would you hoard stuff if not to become rich? You do not need 10.000 stones on stock in case you have to craft something. And going to the mine to mine like... 80 stones... does not take you longer than 10 minutes. Maybe 15.

And yes, the propsal is not perfect yet, but something needs to be done against chars, that exist longer than one month, having everything they need and never have to ask others for new stuff again. Maybe disabling the possibility to repair things (besides costumized items)?

Ein neuer Spieler wird keine Wochen abwarten bis er jemand findet. Er ist innerhalb paar Tagen weg.
Why? Why would a new player leave? They can still buy stuff up to level 50. And while getting to level 50, they will definitely meet some other chars

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Post by Lia » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:29 pm

Re: Change proposal: Only common items for NPC traders

Vielleicht weil Spieler Erfolge brauchen um an einem Spiel dran zu bleiben. Zudem wirbt Illarion damit Schwerpunkt auf Rollenspiel zu legen. Aber wenn man kein RP findet was für ein Rollenspiel ist es dann?

Entweder ist keiner on oder kaum einer. Oder man findet nirgends jemand obwohl ein paar Leute online sind.

Und wovon genau soll er das Zeug bezahlen bis Level 50 ? Die Quest die man am Anfang mit einem ungeskillten Charakter erledigen kann geben soviel Geld nicht. Und von dem wenigen Geld muss man sich dann Werkzeuge und/oder Waffen und Rüstung besorgen und schon ist das Geld wieder weg, man beginnt also wieder von vorne. Und je nach Beruf fehlen dann immer noch die Materialien.


Bezüglich deinem Punkt mit den Items. Ich habe Materialien auf Lager um sie da zu haben wenn jemand etwas braucht. Und ganz ehrlich mit 10 Minuten farmen ist es definitiv Nicht getan. Man braucht einiges an Materialien für nur ein Item.
So habe ich sie da, kann dann in die Schmiede, Schreinerei, Schneiderei ( oder was auch immer) gehen und das Item anfertigen, was je nach Level und je nach Menge der gewünschten Items auch dauert.

Kurzum ich finde das dieses Thema im Moment nicht so wichtig ist.

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Post by Katharina Brightrim » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:08 pm

Re: Change proposal: Only common items for NPC traders

Lia wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:29 pm
Und wovon genau soll er das Zeug bezahlen bis Level 50 ? Die Quest die man am Anfang mit einem ungeskillten Charakter erledigen kann geben soviel Geld nicht. Und von dem wenigen Geld muss man sich dann Werkzeuge und/oder Waffen und Rüstung besorgen und schon ist das Geld wieder weg, man beginnt also wieder von vorne. Und je nach Beruf fehlen dann immer noch die Materialien.
Wovon zahlt ein noob aktuell das Zeug bis lvl 50? Und wie sollte es ihm helfen, wenn der NPC Zeug über lvl 50 anbietet, wenn er es eh nicht braucht am Anfang, deine Logik widerspricht sich komplett selbst. Wenig Geld zu haben am Anfang ist doch sogar ein starkes Plus-Argument die Items 50+ aus dem Handel zu nehmen von NPC-Seite.

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Post by Lia » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:22 pm

Re: Change proposal: Only common items for NPC traders

Wo ist das ein starkes Plus Argument um Items aus dem Angebot der NPC zu nehmen weil Neue Chars wenig Geld haben?

Aktuell gibt es noch Chars die Noobs Dinge für sehr günstigen Preis verkaufen oder sogar schenken, was mit dem Punkt das alles ein Verfallsdatum hat hinfällig ist.

Um zum eigentlichen Thema zurück zu kommen. ich seh keinen überzeugenden positiven Aspekt darin das ANgebot und die Zugänglichkeit der Items zu ändern.

Zudem gibt es jetzt schon viele Baustellen die teils seit Jahren exestieren, muss man da ernsthaft noch mehr hinzufügen?

Wenn wir mal wieder viele Spieler haben sollten kann man diesen Punkt mit den NPC und Berufen ja wieder ausgraben.

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Post by Charlotte-ate-wilbur » Fri Aug 10, 2018 5:35 pm

Re: Change proposal: Only common items for NPC traders

I dont understand this at all. The reason people tend to do a lot of these behaviors such as hoarding doing treasure maps instead of finding a crafters is because 1) a lack a of players... All too often am I the only one playing. Not to mention this is a game where relationships matter, the factions, personalities, and history all determine who your char turns to for equipment. Which moves on to point 2) Craft balancing between towns kills trade. The towns put out a confrontational vibe unused by gms and players alike. Its written into the dialog everywhere we look. Each town insults the values of the other and even has npcs making violent threats. Player chars and gm leaders (the Don,Queen, archangel) have not done anything about these violent and despiccably insulting citizens that are npcs.
3)Basic model for any rpg, mmo or not. Have items in which you can sell to vendors as a way for an adventurer to make coin.


I may suggest trying to come up with ideas that will not hinder gameplay. We need more reasons to play not less. Illarion has been in a constant state of tweaking which it needs but we need to see some added content which adds to role play possibility. You want more sandbox imo

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Post by Caswir » Fri Aug 10, 2018 7:07 pm

Re: Change proposal: Only common items for NPC traders

How would Caswir make money then? I sell a lot of high end items to NPCs.

So I am against it.

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Post by Charlotte-ate-wilbur » Fri Aug 10, 2018 10:01 pm

Re: Change proposal: Only common items for NPC traders

On the note of skill caps...

First off that essentially makes custom classes, which goes against Estralis' design concept of 'no classes'

It's as simple as too few players. Imagine some old vets who have had their chars for years who have anywhere from 10-20 maxed skills. Countless hours spent on that. These chars meanwhile have the skills needed to provide for other players which makes them a good leader type char for a group or guild. You skill cap these guys I don't imagine there to be pleasant feelings about it.

I kindly advise that taking away is counter-productive.. yet additional content should be the goal

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Post by GolfLima » Sat Aug 11, 2018 4:08 pm

Re: Change proposal: Only common items for NPC traders

* sorry only in GERMAN - i have no desire to translate this

* mein Char ist so EINER --> er hat "fast unendliche" Ressourcen und fast jedes Handwerk gemeistert
* ich gebe "Neulingen" i.A. recht günstig ein paar Dinge für den Anfang ab, manchmal verschenke ich sie auch (abhängig davon wie sich der Char. meinem Char über verhält)
* viele Char dürften meinen Char kennen und wissen, das er fast Alles herstellen kann
* es gibt immer noch das Handelsbrett und "Tauben" um nach Dingen zu suchen oder jemand zu bitten etwas zu tun
* ich bin mehrmals ig gescheitert eine "Meister-Liste" zu erstellen - die wäre aber jetzt scheinbar recht hilfreich

Vorschlag zur Güte ((falls so etwas überhaupt umsetzbar ist))
* es gibt in der Heimatstadt/Borgate EINE bestimmte Kiste mit EXTREM beschränkter Kapazität um bestimmte Dinge für die "Ewigkeit" zu lagern
* in den restlichen Kisten "vergammelt" das Lagergut mit der Zeit - (über Zeiträume für die verschiedenen Dinge/Sorten/Rohstoffe usw müßte man gesondert nachdenken)

* man hat 2 "Haupthandwerke" (bei denen man die Dinge immer bis zum Char-Level) herstellen kann und der Rest sind "Nebenhandwerke" (bei denen man Dinge bis max Level 50(?) heststellen kann wenn der Char einen höheren Lvl als diesen hat)
--> dies würde es ermöglichen durchaus mehr HW und auch andere DInge zu erlernen
--> es müßte NPCs geben bei denen man die "Haupthandwerke" festlegen/wechseln kann (Preis, Abklingzeit, ...?)
--> wenn es "Haupthandwerke/Nebenhandwerke" gibt sollte man das auch für Kämpfer (Rüstungen/Kampfarten) überdenken - möglicherweise auch für Magie/Priestertum

P.S.1
wie kommt man zu so viel Materialien?
- Gerben und Weben --> unendlich viel Schafscheren lernen --> UNENDLICH viel Wolle, Garn, grauen Stoff
- ähnliches gilt für (glaube ich) Kräuterkunde --> unendlich viel Honig und Eier sammeln --> UNENDLICH viel Honigwaben, Eier, diverse Kuchen
- wenn man wie mein Char auch noch fast jedes herumliegende "Kraut" aufhebt hat man schnell VIELE, auch seltene Kräuter zusammen
- um den MC zu senken oder weil man bestimmte mag. Edelsteine oder Elemente brauchte sammelte man dann bestimmte Ressourcen und so hat man bald eine Kiste voll mit allen möglichen Rohstoffen
- Schatzkarten sammeln sich auch mit der Zeit in größeren Mengen ohne besondere Mühe wenn man ab und an irgendeine Ressource abbaut
- Hartholz und Merinium habe ich auch des Öfteren in größeren Mengen gekauft
- Edelsteine/Staub braucht man in fast jedem Handwerk also sammelt/kauft man ungeschliffene Edelsteine auch öfter mal und wird nebenbei Meister- Edelsteinschleifer
- ach ja, wenn man ALLEIN ig ist sammelt man i.A. auch Ressourcen
:arrow: :arrow: also eine Kiste voll mit allem möglichen Zeug zu haben ist recht einfach und man sollte nicht auf diese Mitspieler schimpfen/draufhauen ...

P.S.2
inzwischen hat mein Char. sogar eine recht erklägliche Anzahl an
Hartholz / Merinium
reinen Elementen


Hoffe ich habe mich halbwegs verständlich ausgedrückt.
Sorry again - only german - if someone have time, leisure or desire he/she may translate it.
Last edited by GolfLima on Sun Aug 12, 2018 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Banduk » Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:06 am

Re: Change proposal: Only common items for NPC traders

Regarding the basic proposal "Only common items buy from trader"
I cannot remember I bought at any time high level items from an NPC. The point is the quality is not sufficient. So far removing the capability to buy high level items will have almost no effect but is good.
PS: High quality >60

Regarding the basic proposal "Only common items sell to trader"
It should be possible to sell unneeded items or loot no matter what the item level is.
The high end crafter need a way to get rid of the very large number of high end items need to make to become the master crafter.
The high end fighter need a way to get rid of high end loot.

According to my opinion the real threat to crafting are the treasure maps.
Why anybody need a crafter if it is common you find perfect brand new top gear in a treasure? It's less boring and time consuming to dig a few top treasures than try to make the item. So the probability to find a perfect gear in a treasure should be not higher than 1 per 50, a very good 1 per 20 treasures. Any gear in the treasure must not be brand new but from low durability.

Regarding "Go to seed in inventory"
This is a real slap in the face of characters playing crafter, characters playing a merchant and casual player.
I would be extremely upset if I find out any of the items bought together to have a stock for selling went away. A 100% reason finally to quit.

Regarding "Total skill limitation / specialization"
I like the idea and it remembers me to a discussion years ago regarding a skill cap. The proposal was ripped to very small pieces since it must not be thinkable, any of the hard gained skill points get reduced. But exact that has to be the case.
I'd give a player a total amount of skill points over all (maybe 700). Learning happens always if you do any. Once you reach the 701th skill point, 2 random skill points are removed. Preferably these skill you didn't used. That way you should stay in training for your preferable high end skills and avoid to do everything by yourself. And it will work for long term chars at well, since we can choose where to specialize for just by doing and not by any trainer.

But
at the moment I don't think all these ideas make sense. The common opinion regarding our game is it is so terrible, that it must not be advertised viewtopic.php?f=77&t=42070. So we cannot get new player and with the current player base (40 active player in total, almost 4 player online during prime time) any limitation is counterproductive. A not inconsiderable part of it are the players we do not want.
So far we must concentrate to the points that will allow us to advertise the game to bring new player in.

Lia

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Post by Lia » Sun Aug 12, 2018 3:57 pm

Re: Change proposal: Only common items for NPC traders

Schatz suchen sind nicht so lukrativ wie hier manche behaupten.

Ich war erst die Tage wieder auf Schatz suche 12 Schätze , darin war ein einziges Item von perfekter qualität und hohem Level.

Alle anderen war die Qualität eher schlechter
Die Ausbeute war insgesamt auch eher schlecht. Großteil der ganzen Dinge waren nur zum Verkauf von nutzen, nicht aber um es selbst zu tragen.
Und seltene Dinge wie zb reines Element kamen auch exakt 2 mal vor.
Teilt man dies jetzt durch alle Teilnehmer ... war die Schatz suche definitv nicht lohnend, rein vom materiellen Wert. ( fürs rp und zusammen spielen schon ^^ )

Und man bedenke es waren alles große Karten.

Somit sind es nicht die Schätze das Problem.
Und auch nicht was die NPC verkaufen.

Das Problem ist das viele Spieler alles lieber selbst machen, anstatt mit jemand anderem zu handeln.


Banduk wrote:
Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:06 am
But at the moment I don't think all these ideas make sense.....
with the current player base (40 active player in total, almost 4 player online during prime time) any limitation is counterproductive.
So far we must concentrate to the points that will allow us to advertise the game to bring new player in.




Sehe ich auch so und hatte ich oben auch schon mal erwähnt. bei der geringen Spielerzahl ist die Idee für den Moment eher schlecht.

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Post by JacobB » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:31 pm

Re: Change proposal: Only common items for NPC traders

Estralis Seborian wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:00 pm
Dear all,

originally, it was planned that NPC traders do not trade high level items. Due to simplifications and reasons I cannot recall anymore, this was not implemented by me and NPC traders trade practically any item in the game. I propose to let NPC traders buy and sell only common items (below level 90). Those do not require pure elements.

Pro:
  • Player to player trade encouraged as best items not available for money
  • Influx of money to the game reduced as most valuable items cannot be turned into money
Con:
  • Valuable high level items might pile up in depots, reducing market price
  • No way to monetarise high level items, only donation possible
  • Less motivation to accumulate money as there is nothing valuable you can buy in the end
  • Money sink effect of NPC traders reduced
The effort for this change is low to marginal. Original change proposal is from Seajiha, to give credit to the right person.

Best regards,
Estralis

-------------------------------------
(sorry, but can't the ugly formatting/quoting in the forums be changed back as it was before?)


Der Vorschlag ist wirklich gut, vor allem weil damit Interaktionen zwischen Spielern gefördert werden.

Ich würde noch etwas weiter gehen und zusätzlich folgende Items komplett aus dem Handel ausschließen:
- Verkauf von Rohstoffen
- Verkauf von Edelsteinen
- Verkauf von Nahrungsmitteln

Man könnte sogar noch weiter gehen, und alle NPC Händler komplett abschaffen. Somit müssten alle Waren von Spielern hergestellt und verkauft werden. Damit das funktioniert müssen auch die Störfaktoren beseitigt werden: Schatzsuchen und Monsterdrops dürfen Items nicht mehr in der Vielzahl wie bisher enthalten, sondern hauptsächlich Münzen und evtl. seltene Rohstoffe.

---- google translated:

The proposal is really good, mainly because it promotes interactions between players.

I would go a little further and additionally exclude the following items completely from the trade:
- sale of raw materials
- Sale of gemstones
- Sale of food

You could even go further, and eliminate all NPC traders completely. Thus, all goods would have to be manufactured and sold by players. In order for this to work, it is important to eliminate the confounding factors: treasure hunts and monster drops may no longer contain items in their multiplicity as before, but mainly coins and possibly rare resources.

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Post by JacobB » Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:44 pm

Re: Change proposal: Only common items for NPC traders

Immer wieder wird hier die Notwendigkeit zum Verkauf von Beute oder nicht benötigtem Inventar erwähnt:
Nachdem NPC Händler keinen positiven Rollenspiel Aspekt ins Spiel bringen und das Verkaufen von nicht benötigten Items eher lästig ist, als dass es Spaß macht, könnte man eine Abfrage am Donation Feld einbauen, so dass der Spieler, nachdem er seine Gegenstände abgelegt hat, die Wahl hat 1) zu Spenden (10% Wert) oder 2) zu Verkaufen (5% Wert)

--- translate

Again and again, the need to sell loot or unneeded inventory is mentioned here:
Since NPC merchants do not add a positive roleplaying aspect into the game and selling unneeded items is rather annoying than funny, you could build a query on the donation box, so that the player has the choice after discarding his items 1) to donatie (10% value) or 2) to sell (e.g. 5% value)

Lia

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Post by Lia » Wed Aug 15, 2018 12:06 pm

Re: Change proposal: Only common items for NPC traders

JacobB wrote:
Tue Aug 14, 2018 10:44 pm
Immer wieder wird hier die Notwendigkeit zum Verkauf von Beute oder nicht benötigtem Inventar erwähnt:
Nachdem NPC Händler keinen positiven Rollenspiel Aspekt ins Spiel bringen und das Verkaufen von nicht benötigten Items eher lästig ist, als dass es Spaß macht, könnte man eine Abfrage am Donation Feld einbauen, so dass der Spieler, nachdem er seine Gegenstände abgelegt hat, die Wahl hat 1) zu Spenden (10% Wert) oder 2) zu Verkaufen (5% Wert)


Bei 5 oder 10% kann man es auch gleich wegwerfen, kommt auf das gleiche heraus. Und irgendwie muss man auch Geld verdienen. Bei der geringen SPieleranzahl findet man kaum einen Käufer. Zum einen weil es eben sehr wenig Spieler sind, zum Anderen weil die Hälfte davon es sowieso selber machen kann.

Solange wir nur eine handvoll Spieler sind lohnt sich eine Überarbeitung des Handels, der Berufe und NPC nicht im geringsten. IM Gegenteil es führt wohl eher dazu das es noch weniger SPieler werden.

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Post by JacobB » Wed Aug 15, 2018 1:30 pm

Re: Change proposal: Only common items for NPC traders

Interaktion mit anderen Spieler Charakteren, also "echtes Rollenspiel", ist m.E. der einzige Grund Illarion überhaupt (noch) zu spielen.

Wozu soll mein Spieler im Alleingang Geld verdienen, wenn er das Geld überhaupt nicht ausgeben kann, bzw. wenn er es nur wieder beim NPC einsetzen kann?

10% ist der aktuelle Betrag in einer Stadt in der das Handwerk zu Hause ist, 5% wenn in einer "fremden" Stadt verkauft wird.
Der vorgeschlagene Prozentsatz ist also im Bereich dessen, was ein Handwerker aktuell erzielen kann.

M.E. sollte nicht der NPC Handel gefördert werden, sondern der Handel zwischen Spielern. Eine Lösung dafür ist, den NPC Handlel möglichst unattraktiv zu gestalten.

---

Interaction with other characters, "real role play", is the only reason imo to (still) play Illarion.

Why should my chars earn a lot of coins in trades with NPCs (non player char interactions), if he can not spend the money at all, or if he can spend it again only using a NPC?

10% is the current amount you receive in the home town of a craft, 5% when sold in a "foreign" city.
The proposed percentage is therefore in the range of what a craftsman can currently achieve.

Imo you should not promote NPC trades, but trading between player chars. Therefore, one solution is, to make NPC trade as unattractive as possible.

Lia

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Post by Lia » Wed Aug 15, 2018 3:22 pm

Re: Change proposal: Only common items for NPC traders

Welches RP? Es sind kaum Spieler on , und selbst wenn mal ein paar mehr on sind ist es schwierig einen Spieler und somit RP zu finden.
Oft besteht das Rp dann auch aus "Hallo" und "Bye"

Viele Spieler sind bei dem Gedanken an Illarion frustriert wegen fehlendem RP.

Bevor man an den Handel geht sollte man erstmal schauen wie man mehr Spieler für Illarion bekommt.

Die NPC sind nicht das Problem. Das Probleme sehe ich eher in den "Ich mache alles selbst" bzw "Alleskönner" Charakteren.

Meine Charaktere haben jeweils nur einen Beruf. Könnte ich meine Items nicht an die NPC verkaufen würde ich gar nichts verdienen. Und ich bezweifel das ich die EInzige bin der es so geht.

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