Glyph Forgers

Here you can make and discuss suggestions to improve the game. / Hier kannst du Vorschläge einreichen und diskutieren um das Spiel zu verbessern.

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Mon Jul 03, 2017 6:32 am

Glyph Forgers

This is a proposal to begin work on Glyph Forgers and add it to the game. So far nothing has been done but when work is started it should be placed here: https://github.com/Illarion-eV/Illarion ... elop/magic

What is a Glyph Forger?
Glyph Forgers craft magical artefacts out of jewelleries.....
An idea of the concept is here at 5.2: http://illarion.org/~estralis/Ars_magica_v2.10.pdf

Why this proposal? To combine ideas, work toward the best solution, gather information, hopefully gather volunteers for assistance, and keep the concept open for players and staff. There is no discussion anywhere else about this concept.

Before you post, here is a brief review of the give and take desired...

1. Read carefully what others have to say. It is recommended to wait at least two posts before writing any answer. This gives others a chance to post their ideas also.
2. Only say what you truly believe. Feel free to contribute rather then remain silent however avoid the "I agree" post. Tell us your ideas but don't hog the thread. Let other people speak and stay on topic, avoiding irrelevant links, comments, thoughts, or pictures.
3. Respect the opinions of others. If you feel the need to disagree, do so respectfully and acknowledge the valid points.
4. Be brief...if you write a long dissertation in response to a simple question, it’s unlikely that anyone will spend the time to read through it all. Criticism must be constructive, well-meaning, and well-articulated.
5. The goal is not to agree -- it is to gain a deeper understanding establishing a process of group participation rather then any kind of lecture. (Thanks for your time reading this!)


Staff, would appreciate your input of what can be done including ideas of implementation and possibly some kind of time, though that will probably be the hardest. Players...ideas, how this will affect the game as you see it, other concerns.

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Post by Karrock » Mon Jul 03, 2017 9:04 am

Re: Glyph Forgers

Can glyph forgers make also amulets for magic resistance? There was a speech that amulets or rings will contain such a defence and I see no reason why not magician char could create such an item.

EDIT: Because Dantagon asked me to write this I'm writing. My proposal for the very beggining. I see glyph forger as normal crafter with special abilities, so start from creating items which glyph forger could be making. Just create names, their levels and experience which they give from making. Next step would be adding effects. That's all.

EDIT 2: I suggest every magic items like in example wands or magic weapons would make glyph forger.
Also this would like: Glyph forger needs common item (ring, amulet, weapon) made by other crafts and other components. So he doesn't create amulets, rings, weapons but remake adding spells on them. This would means he needs a new static tool. Like a desk.

EDIT 3: I suggest to add skill or two. Ring Magic and Amulet Magic or just Items Magic, which one of them would replace Magic Resistance. These skills or skill would be based on WP, because basing them on INT would be difficult for the most chars. Most non magical characters have not drop much points to INT because they didn't discover it could be useful.

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Post by Caswir » Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:57 am

Re: Glyph Forgers

Ooh this is cool. Since my character is a finesmith! So I definitely enjoy the idea of a Glyph Forger class (and also the plan for the magic system looks to be excellent) *two thumbs up*. Really looking forward to this.

I only wonder, how will the glpyhs separate graphically so to be distinct from the runes and the magic gems? Will take some creativity I imagine.

I also suggest, there be more opportunity (or action) to learn the skills, other than the action of socketing a glyph. This seems like it would take much time, as all mana is consumed.

(Glyph Forging should only be used in Jewellery, and should stay this way.)


Anyways just my two cents.

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Post by Banduk » Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:47 am

Re: Glyph Forgers

Questions in Dev Forum
I had a look to the glyph forging and think I could do a first working system within 2 - 3 weeks.
Before I start I had some questions:
Do we have already parts of the glyph forging coded? If yes what?

Materials for glyph forging are 49 shards. This could be done by:
- 1 item with data and 49 different shapes
-7 items with data and 7 different shapes each
-49 items
I remembered a discussion about limitations of possible new items. In the first case all items would have used the same graphics forever. So I tend to use 49 different even if we have to use one graphic for all 49 at the beginning.
What is planned and do we have any graphic already?

The combining process I’d start with a selection dialog in 2 level:
1. List of 7 glyphs with ‘5 shards of 7 available’
2. If all available the forging process can start
3. Inside of glyph detailed information which shards are available and which not.
It can be replaced by a newer GUI once available.

Why is a combining and forging assigned to different person? Combining of the shards could be a part of the forging itself?

How ‘rare’ should be shards? Should one be able to find even in small treasures?

I have an issue with the effects.
At the moment I have no clue how I should do the untargeting for archer. Sad to say targeting is recalculated every 1/10th second so it may be highly useless.
On the other hand there are no effects for non fighter
How about:
- Repair doesn’t take material
- Repair result in quality increase for sure (if possible) (My favoured!)
- +1 higher quality in production

How is a char handled wearing 2 glyphed rings with same effects?

I’m sure I’ll have more questions once I started.

Questions in public forum
I'll take the glyph forging as next dev task.
Some questions:

Glyph forging base on 7 shards of 7 glyphs, so 49 shards may be found anywhere.
I'm looking for names. Even if I use in code 1A .. 7G, such a naming IG would be strange. Be aware shards can be combines 1[A..G] as well as [1..7]A.
So here are some proposals.
  • [left, right, upper, lower, front, center, rear] shard of [obsidian, ruby, amethyst, topas, emerald, sappire, diamond] glyph
  • [first, second .. seventh] shard of [obsidian, ruby, amethyst, topas, emerald, sappire, diamond] glyph
  • [long, short, round, quadratic, triangle, ball, cylindrical] shard of [obsidian, ruby, amethyst, topas, emerald, sappire, diamond]
  • [black, red, pink, yellow, green, blue, white] shard of [obsidian, ruby, amethyst, topas, emerald, sappire, diamond]
My personal favorite is the 4th.


The current list of possible effects in the specification is limited to fighting.
I'd like to see effects for craftsmen, mages and druids as well.
My favorites:
  • Repair of an item will increase the quality for sure if item quality was decreased by NPC repair.
  • Crafted item has one level better quality if not already perfect
  • Extend range of wand attack to e.g.10 (could be combined with archer reward)
  • Reverse mana consumption during wand attack (get mana back on attack)
  • Increase the positive effect, or duration of a potion by 1 step during the brew.
Your ideas are welcome. Be aware a glyph provides a limited number of times a one time effect, so a glyph "enforce the strike" will double the damage of a hit for the next 20 hits.
Different power of influence can be balanced by different numbers of possible application of the effect.


In total there are 7 or 14 different effects. (1[A..G]..7[A..G]; [1..7]A..[1..7]G)
Should the amulet effects differ form the ring effects or be equal?

Edit: I added at 2017-09-21 the original questionaire from the Dev forum

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:32 pm

Re: Glyph Forgers

Banduk wrote:Should the amulet effects differ form the ring effects or be equal?
Differ, of course. That is the whole point of 7x7 shards. In the language of the shard grid (see below), rows are for amulets and columns for rings. So the glyph for a ruby ring requires the shards B1 thru B7 while the glyph for the ruby amulet requires shards A2 thru G2. Giving these two distinct combinations the very same effect would, for me, basically nullify the need for the grid. And from my opinion, collecting the "right" shards for the desired glyph effect is what makes this interesting.
Glyph names2.png
Glyph names2.png (87.69 KiB) Viewed 3253 times
Concerning the names, I'd like to propose a slightly more innovative and illustrious approach. Just stating the obvious (blue shard of sapphire) might not be adequate for our ambitions as indy game. I propose we combine "syllables" with each word fragment representing the properties of the shard. The blue shard of sapphire would be called e.g. "Hydorilyn". See example below:
Glyph names.png
Glyph names.png (94.87 KiB) Viewed 3253 times
In this example, the glyph for a ruby ring requires the shards Anemotan, Pyrtan, Hydortan, Choustan, Dendrontan, Nomizotan, and Hierostan (all with ...tan) while the glyph for the ruby amulet requires shards Pyrgwynt, Pyrtan, Pyrilyn, Pyrdaear, Pyrcoeden, Pyrysbryd, and Pyrdwyfol (all with Pyr...). Experts might recognise that I combined words from Welsh and Ancient Greek. We can also combine other languages, other meanings of the words such as the proposed colours and of course also used made up word fragments.

Concerning the effects, the idea behind using fight related effects - offensive but also protective, defensive effects - was to keep things simple. To have all effects centred in one script will make it easy to balance and maintain them. Spreading the effects over various aspects of the game sounds appealing but is also creating many dependencies. I am very sure we should provide crafters, mages and druids (what about priests?) with special effects in this game. But does it have to be via glyph forging? For arcane magic, it might make sense but especially other magic schools should have their own way of creating effects and not via glyphs. Like, Merung plans lots of positive effects for druids (witches, alchemists etc.) with his extension of druid magic (alchemy II). Balancing these effects against glyph effects is a work we could and should save. To support crafting is probably a good idea as glyph forgers are some sort of "craft-mages". One needs to take into account that this could result in "self-supporting" that could be detrimental to interaction; but this is a crystal ball assumption. If we can come up with 7 distinct effects that support arcane mages or crafters, I am pretty sure we could generate a reasonable counter-proposal. Generally, as written by Banduk and in the magic concept, ideas for effects are very welcome. What I warn against is to have effects that help only a minor fraction of the characters. Everyone can benefit from a protective charm that deflects damage but few will benefit from an effect that scales mana consumption during a wand attack. Such an imbalanced applicability of glyphs will result in severe offsets of shard utility. I want every shard to be useful to everyone and not some shards being useless to most but a few players.

For completeness, find below the proposed effects. I'd very happy about more proposals. Generally, we should design this feature rather than reacting on obvious demands that, in the end, just patch problems of the game we should fix instead.

Rings
• Amethysts: The next target hit loses some actionpoints (stun) but not below a certain threshold.
• Rubies: The next target is engulfed in a flame that causes instant damage
• Obsidians: Upon hitting a target, the bearer is warped to a nearby safe position to avoid counter fire. Especially useful for archers
• Sapphires: The hit target is warped away from the bearer over a small distance
• Emeralds: The affected target is slowed down for a while (snare)
• Topazes: The next target hit takes doubled damage
• Diamonds: The hit target suffers from damage over time. Each additional hit raises the duration of the effect

Amulets
• Amethysts: The next attacker loses additional actionpoints by his attack. The bearer "leeches" a fraction of those actionpoints
• Rubies: Attacking the bearer fires back the dealt damage with an instant fire damage
• Obsidians: The bearer gets warped to a safe place
• Sapphires: Dealing damage to the bearer warps the attacker away
• Emeralds: Attacking the bearer locks the attacker in place for a short time (root)
• Topazes: Attacking the bearer does not damage the bearer but the attacker
• Diamonds: Attacking the bearer makes the attacker suffer from damage over time. Each additional attack increases the duration of the DoT

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Post by Vern Kron » Tue Sep 19, 2017 12:46 am

Re: Glyph Forgers

While I appreciate the desire to set ourselves apart in the glyph forging, the proposed names are very difficult to understand. Part of the difficulty I have found holding me back from getting involved in the potion making system is the names of the values: they have little meaning to me and that really bothers me. I can attach little meaning to these words, and so they have become random numbers to me.

The same is true with the names proposed here. While they may be combinations of various words, to a new player there is going to be little meaning in them. If they have to collect multiple of these shards, then asking for help to find them is going to be rather tiresome. They will have to look up on a list to recall how to spell the shard they are looking for, over and over. I know that I would.

Instead, maybe use different shapes or cuts of gems to describe the gem piece they are looking for.

So the columns could instead be:
Asscher (gem) shard
Bagguette (gem) shard
Briolette (gem) shard
Cabachon (gem) shard
Cushion (gem) Shard
Heart (or if that isn't good, Octagon) (gem) shard
Marquise (gem) shard

A completed amulet could become: A magical Asscher amulet, which would be composed of all of the different gem colors. Or a ring could contain all of the same colors, but the different shaped shards represented.
From a realistic point of view, that sort of ring would look terrible and also possibly jagged. But it's also magic so part of that could be making the ring not look like trash. Alternatively, it could simply be titled: 'An amethyst glyph ring'.
The thing I would like us to avoid is adding more questionable terms to the game: they add little value to the sticking value of the game, they simply make it confusing. While these shapes don't mean a great deal to most people, it would help people understand in this regard:
I either need to get 7 of these shapes, or 7 of these colors.

Edit: By the way, these shapes are not from my personal knowledge. I googled 'gem shapes' and used the first website. There are a few others, and it could even be stretched to a point that the shapes present may have some symbolism connected to the function that such a gem would serve. For example something that resists damage may be a 'heart amulet' (because it keeps your health).

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Post by Banduk » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:36 am

Re: Glyph Forgers

Für alle, die keine seitenlangen englischen (oder auch deutsche) Texte lesen:

Es geht um die Gyphen Magie (Glyphe zu deutsch Bildzeichen). Glyphen werden in Juwelen eingeprägt und ermöglichen den Träger eine Anzahl von einmaligen Effekten. Zum Beispiel verursachen die nächsten 20 Angriffe den doppelten Schaden. Danach verschwindet die Glyphe.

Damit ich anfangen kann sind zwei Dinge zu klären:
1. Wie sollen die Scherben oder Splitter (shards) heißen, aus denen die Glyphen zusammengesetzt werden?
Es gibt 7x7 Splitter. Jeweils 7 zusammengehörige Splitter (horizontal oder vertikal) bilden eine Glyphe.
Derzeit gibt es 6 verschiedene Vorschläge.

2. Welche Effekte sollen die eingeprägten Glyphen haben?
Es gibt 2 * 7 Effekte (7 horizontal für Ringe, 7 vertikal für Amulette).
Derzeit sind ausschließlich kampfbezogene Effekte vorgesehen.

Edit: Schreibfehler korrigiert

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Post by Banduk » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:47 am

Re: Glyph Forgers

Estralis Seborian wrote: Concerning the effects, the idea behind using fight related effects - offensive but also protective, defensive effects - was to keep things simple.
...
If we can come up with 7 distinct effects that support arcane mages or crafters, I am pretty sure we could generate a reasonable counter-proposal. Generally, as written by Banduk and in the magic concept, ideas for effects are very welcome. What I warn against is to have effects that help only a minor fraction of the characters. Everyone can benefit from a protective charm that deflects damage but few will benefit from an effect that scales mana consumption during a wand attack. Such an imbalanced applicability of glyphs will result in severe offsets of shard utility. I want every shard to be useful to everyone and not some shards being useless to most but a few players.
Ich denke, dass mit ausschließlich kampfbezogenen Effekten für einen großer Teil der Charakter die Nutzung der Glyphen unsinnig ist. Wer einen Charakter mit primärerer Auslegung als Handwerker, Druide, Magier oder in Zukunft Priester spielt, hat wenig Nutzen von zum Teil marginalen Kampfverbesserungen.
Insofern sehe ich es als unbedingt erforderlich an, auch Effekte für andere Ausprägungen als Krieger zu haben.
Das kann auf 2 Wegen passieren:
A: Aufteilung der Glyphen 4 x rein Kampf, 4 x rein Handwerk, 4 x rein Magie, 2 x Magie, Handwerk und Kampf
B: Eine Glyphe beinhaltet Effekte für Magie, Handwerk und Kampf
google translation wrote:I think that with exclusively combat-related effects for a large part of the character the use of the glyphs is nonsensical. Whoever plays a character with a more primary interpretation as a craftsman, a druid, a magician, or a priest in the future has little use of some marginal combat enhancements.
In this respect, I see it as absolutely necessary to have effects for different manifestations as warriors.
This can happen in 2 ways:
A: Splitting the glyphs 4 x pure combat, 4 x pure craft, 4 x pure magic, 2 x magic, craft and combat
B: A glyph includes effects for magic, craft, and combat

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:57 am

Re: Glyph Forgers

I admit I agree with Vern about the alchemy agents. For me, it is mostly confusing that I have no idea what these agents actually stand for as the names are pretty random. Like, if I add Adrazine to a potion, what does it do? The Adrazine has not effect on its own; it depends on the potion. And I cannot tell what plant has it unless I look it up. So I need to look up the effect depending on the potion AND the plant. I can understand this is confusing and might result in a tendency to avoid further "fancy names". But I am pretty sure there are other opinions around and many hardcore alchemists like these fancy names and the resulting challenge.

If you jump to page 11 of the magic concept (http://illarion.org/~estralis/Ars_magica_v2.10.pdf), you see a IMO more reasonable approach. Each rune has its meaning and the combination of two or more runes "adds up" the meanings. So a RA rune always creates a fire spell and the SIH rune always affects health. So RA SIH is a damaging fire spell that leeches some health to the caster. To combine meanings to something more meaningful ;-) is a nice challenge and I am pretty sure most players are capable of analysing "Word A3" = "Word A" + "Word 3". But I am fully open to proposals and actually, I think names are the last thing we need to worry about when it comes to implementing glyph forging scripts.

How would you call the rows of the grid? Just to use the names of the gems will confuse many as the grid aspect becomes not visible. Like, you need the shards E1 thru E7 for the emerald ring while the glyph for the emerald amulet requires shards A5 thru G5. So both lines should hint on the emerald with every shard except E5 also needs to hint on other gems. So "green bagguette shard" or "emerald bagguette shard" does not really give a hint about this shard being necessary for a ruby ring. (btw I think you mixed up rows and columns in your proposal). I would like to avoid using gem names only for the rings/amulets and leave the other up to guesswork. Of course, it would be obvious that you need all cabachon shard for one type of jewellery, but for which one? Emerald? Topaz? I feel like we need to come up with a proposal that is reasonable and immersive at the same time.

Enough on names as they are sound and smoke ;-). What I propose to focus on is the effects. So what should be the benefit of a glyph forger for the whole game? As I wrote earlier, spreading random effects over the game (Banduk's proposal A) that help few people each might not be the best way forward. Consider we also shall add arcane magic, templars, sanctificators and druid magic. So there is no need to stuff all kinds of supports for different playing styles into one type of magic.

Edit: Banduk's proposal B is reasonable but potentiates the complexity as we'd need 14x5=90 effects for mages, druids, priests, crafters and fighters. Perhaps we can start with collecting such effects and see how far we get? Mind the proposal to add glyph forgers is out for three years now...

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Post by Caswir » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:18 am

Re: Glyph Forgers

I think effects should stay as originally planned. Arcane magic should be as efficient and capable as the other types. We have magic gems already for combatants. Doesn't make sense to change it now.

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Post by Dantagon Marescot » Tue Sep 19, 2017 3:50 pm

Re: Glyph Forgers

I rather like Vern's suggestion towards naming. It would seem fitting that a different gem shape or cut embedded with magical effects would result in different things. There are enough actual cuts out there that we could easily find something that works. A heart cut could easily be a healing ring, whereas a round or octagon cut is for a mana ring.

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Post by Banduk » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:01 am

Re: Glyph Forgers

Currently we have the following magic skills prepared.
  Code:
37;magicResistance;Magic Resistance 52;wandMagic;Wand Magic 46;enchantingOfRings;Enchanting of Rings 39;earthMagic;Earth Magic 40;windMagic;Wind Magic 42;fireMagic;Fire Magic 41;spiritMagic;Spirit Magic 38;waterMagic;Water Magic 53;enchantingOfAmulets;Enchanting of Amulets
Shall I create a new or reuse one of the existing (enchantingOfRings)?

Since the activity has to be performed rarely it would be an idea to combine the skill with other artefact productions like Evie's travel book.

Or the skill speed has to be calculated in a special way. Either an extremely high value or a more linear approach.
Google translate wrote: Derzeit haben wir die folgenden magischen Fähigkeiten vorbereitet.
  Code:
37, MagieResistenz, Magischer Widerstand 52. wandMagic, Zaubermagie 46, bezaubernde Ringe, Verzauberung der Ringe 39, Erdmagisch, Erdmagie 40, windmagic, Windmagie 42, fireMagic, Feuermagie 41, spiritMagic, Geist Magie 38, waterMagic, Wassermagie 53, enchantingOfAmulets, Entzücken von Amuletten
Soll ich eine neue oder Wiederverwendung eines der bestehenden (bezauberndenOfRings) erstellen?

Da die Aktivität selten durchgeführt werden muss, wäre es eine Idee, die Fähigkeiten mit anderen Artefakt-Produktionen wie Evies Reisebuch zu kombinieren.

Oder die Fertigkeitsgeschwindigkeit muss in besonderer Weise berechnet werden. Entweder ein extrem hoher Wert oder ein linearer Ansatz.

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Post by Banduk » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:11 am

Re: Glyph Forgers

Estralis Seborian wrote:Skills 46 and 53 are for glyph forgers.
Ich bin nicht wirklich erfreut darüber, dass wir jetzt 2 Skills für eine Aktion haben, die nur ausgesprochen selten vorkommt. Beim Kämpfen kommen hunderte Angriffe zusammen, Beim arbeiten werden hunderte items hergestellt. Wenn wir jetzt ein Sytsem das voraussichtlich 1x pro Tag genutzt wird auch noch in 2 Skills aufteilen, müssen entweder die Lernraten absurd hoch sein oder der Spieler erreicht nie ein brauchbares Skill Level.
Google Translation wrote:I am not really pleased that we now have 2 skills for an action that is rare. When fighting, hundreds of attacks come together, while working hundreds of items are made. If we now have a sytsem that is expected to be used 1x per day, then split into 2 skills, either the learning rates must be absurdly high or the player never reaches a usable skill level.

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Post by Banduk » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:14 am

Re: Glyph Forgers

How many shards should be able to found?

Creating a glyph will consume almost 100% mana of a mage so a repetition will be possible each 10 - 20 min. Therefore we can assume a mage can create one glyph per day in average.
According to the current player base there is about 1 mage per 4-6 other chars.

Therefor every player should find one shard a day in average and consume 1 glyph per 7 days.
A day is calculated with about 2 hours play time.

I'd propose the following frequencies as a fist try:
  • Material gathering
    frequency equal to what's used for treasure maps
  • 40 locations distributed allover Illarion in a range of 15 tiles
    1 shard per 48 hours, rotting in about the time a torch burns down
  • Monster drops
    Every nth killed monster 1 shard, n=100-10*monster level
  • Treasures
    All treasurs without pure elements and magic gems (1-5) every nth time repeated once for each map level, n=3+map level/2
    https://imgur.com/v3mvxbV
    btw. The probability to find 5 shards in a level 5 treasure is about 1/30.000
All figures will be calculated with random!
Google translate wrote: Wie viele Scherben sollten in der Lage sein?

Das Erstellen einer Glyphe wird fast 100% Mana eines Magiers verbrauchen, so dass eine Wiederholung jeweils 10 - 20 min möglich ist. Deshalb können wir annehmen, dass ein Magier im Durchschnitt eine Glyphe pro Tag erzeugen kann.
Nach der aktuellen Spielerbasis gibt es etwa 1 Magier pro 4-6 weitere Zeichen.

Dafür sollte jeder Spieler durchschnittlich einen Shard pro Tag finden und 1 Glyph pro 7 Tage verbrauchen.
Ein Tag wird mit ca. 2 Stunden Spielzeit berechnet.

Ich würde die folgenden Frequenzen als Faust vorschlagen:
  • Material sammeln
    Frequenz gleich dem, was für Schatzkarten verwendet wird
  • 40 Standorte verteilt allover Illarion in einer Strecke von 15 Fliesen
    1 Schard pro 48 Stunden, verrotte etwa um die Zeit eine Fackel verbrennt
  • Monster fällt
    Jeder nth getötete Monster 1 shard, n = 100-10 * Monster Level
  • Schätze
    Alle Schatzkröten ohne reine Elemente und magische Edelsteine ​​(1-5) jede n-te Zeit wiederholt einmal für jede Kartenebene, n = 3 + Kartenebene / 2
    https://imgur.com/v3mvxbV
    btw. Die Wahrscheinlichkeit, 5 Scherben in einer Stufe 5 Schatz zu finden ist etwa 1 / 30.000
Alle Zahlen werden mit Zufall berechnet!

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Post by Banduk » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:18 am

Re: Glyph Forgers

What static tool we use?

The static tool has to be available in all 3 realms with about equal accessibility plus in the wilderness.
To avoid that player wait at the tool until the mana regenerate it should not be too far from the center of RP gravity.
To avoid player run away from RP just to forge a glyphed item every time the mana bar is full it should be not too close to the center of RP gravity.

Based on these limitation it cannot be altars.

I'd propose something like a ritual place with a bookrest, and some decoration. Maybe our graphic artists can made a new item when they made the shards (which are needed urgently!).

And I'd propose only one tool at the beginning. The location could be where the exit of the prison mine is or in the swamp direct right hand after passing the bridge east of the Hempty.

Where the realms place their tool to, I'd let it to the realms. I'd give out a special item to the gouvernment of each realm what can be used to build up the location. Using the item (e.g. a special pell) the location is created by script. There might be some material needed such as pure elements, stone etc.. The location would need 2x3 free tiles and must not be in town but near the town and have a minimum distance to the teleporter. Only one location per town is possible.
We can give out the necessary pell at the town management. These pell will disappear if lookAt later than e.g. 24 hours after creation.
Sad to say, divine misunderstanding or displeasure (Server restart) destroy the ritual location.
Google translation wrote: Welches statische Werkzeug verwenden wir?

Das statische Werkzeug muss in allen 3 Bereichen mit etwa gleicher Zugänglichkeit plus in der Wildnis verfügbar sein.
Um zu vermeiden, dass der Spieler am Werkzeug wartet, bis das Mana regeneriert, sollte es nicht zu weit von der Mitte der RP-Schwerkraft sein.
Um zu vermeiden, dass Spieler von RP weglaufen, um nur ein Glyphenstück zu schmieden, jedes Mal, wenn die Mana-Bar voll ist, sollte es nicht zu nahe an der Mitte der RP-Schwerkraft sein.

Basierend auf dieser Begrenzung kann es keine Altäre sein.

Ich würde so etwas wie einen Ritualplatz mit einer Buchstütze vorschlagen und etwas Dekoration. Vielleicht können unsere Grafiker einen neuen Artikel machen, wenn sie die Scherben machen (die dringend benötigt werden).

Und ich würde am Anfang nur ein Werkzeug vorschlagen. Die Lage könnte sein, wo der Ausgang des Gefängnisbergwerks ist oder in den Sumpf direkt rechts nach dem Passieren der Brücke östlich der Hempty.

Wo die Reiche ihr Werkzeug platzieren, würde ich es in die Reiche bringen. Ich würde ein besonderes Element an die Gouvernment von jedem Reich geben, was verwendet werden kann, um den Standort aufzubauen. Mit dem Element (z. B. ein spezieller Pell) wird der Ort durch Skript erstellt. Es könnte etwas Material benötigt werden, wie reine Elemente, Stein etc .. Die Lage würde 2x3 freie Fliesen benötigen und darf nicht in der Stadt sein, aber in der Nähe der Stadt und haben einen Mindestabstand zum Teleporter. Nur ein Standort pro Stadt ist möglich.
Wir können die notwendige Pell bei der Stadtverwaltung geben. Diese Pell verschwinden, wenn sie später als z.B. 24 Stunden nach der Schaffung.
Traurig zu sagen, göttliches Missverständnis oder Unlust (Serverneustart) zerstöre den Ritualort.

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Post by Banduk » Thu Sep 21, 2017 11:31 am

Re: Glyph Forgers

Da wir 50 neue Items brauchen, hab ich mich mal mit den Details beschäftigt.

Ist es ausreichend ein neues Item auf die folgende Weise zu implementieren:
  • Graphik als png nach Client Content\items\src\main\resources\items
  • Eintrag in Client Content\tables\src\main\resources\Items.tbl
  • Eintrag in DB Tabelle items
?
Wenn ja kann ich alles vorbereiten, so dass nur noch ein Rebuild des Clients notwendig ist.

Für die Graphiken würde ich die folgenden Bilder verwenden. Ich würde die zweite Variante nehmen. Unsere uralten Splitter waren allerdings voll schwarz. Das Glühen gibt es dann in 7 verschiedenen Farben.
https://imgur.com/a/JGlSL
Für das stationäre Werkzeug würde ich erst mal einen bestehenden einfachen Altar (altar3.png) kopieren. Mir fehlt die Erfahrung mit einem 3D isometrischen Zeichenprogramm. Die Graphiker können den dann einfach später ersetzen.
Google translate wrote: Since we need 50 new items, I have times with the details.

Is it sufficient to implement a new item in the following way:
  • Graphics as png by clientContent \ items \ src \ main \ resources \ items
  • Entry in ClientContent \ tables \ src \ main \ resources \ Items.tbl
  • Entry in DB table items
?
If so, I can prepare everything so that only a rebuild of the client is necessary.

For the graphics I would use the following images. I would take the second variant. Our ancient shards were, however, full of black. The glow is then available in 7 different colors.
https://imgur.com/a/JGlSL
For the stationary tool I would copy an existing simple altar (altar3.png). I am missing the experience with a 3D isometric drawing program. The graphic artists can then replace the later.

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Post by Banduk » Thu Sep 21, 2017 12:05 pm

Re: Glyph Forgers

Sollen die Glyphen Träger (Ringe, Amulette) nach Ablauf der Wirkung der Glyphe zerstört werden?
Ich plädiere dafür. Zumindest sollte der Träger mit einer Wahrscheinlichkeit von 1/3 vernichtet werden.
Man könnte auch die Qualität um zufällig 0-3 Schritte verringern.
Das hilft dem Spiel weil wir damit ein Verbrauchsmaterial schaffen, das nachproduziert werden muss.


Welchen Einfluss soll die Qualität des Glyphen Trägers haben?
Ich plädiere dafür, dass die Qualität keine Einfluss hat, da Juwelen in der vollausgebauten Magie eigene magische Wirkungen haben.
Google translate wrote: Should the glyph carrier (rings, amulets) be destroyed after the end of the action of the glyph?
I plead for it. At least the carrier should be destroyed with a probability of 1/3.
One could also reduce the quality by randomly 0-3 steps.
This helps the game because we create a consumable material that needs to be reproduced.


What is the influence of the quality of the glyph carrier?
I advise that the quality has no influence, since jewels have their own magical effects in the full magic.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Thu Sep 21, 2017 3:01 pm

Re: Glyph Forgers

Skillgain is scaled by the duration of an action, not the numbers of actions. So long actions give you much skill. See high end crafting products.

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Post by Banduk » Fri Sep 22, 2017 1:50 pm

Re: Glyph Forgers

Estralis Seborian wrote:Skillgain is scaled by the duration of an action, not the numbers of actions. So long actions give you much skill. See high end crafting products.
Ich hab mal etwas nachgerechnet und bin der Meinung, dass wir uns hier was einfallen lassen müssen.

Noch mal die Basis Zahlen:
  • Häufigkeit mit der eine Glyphe geschmiedet werden kann: eine Glyphe / 2h Spielzeit, dass entspricht etwa einem Tag gespielt (Ja ich weiß, wir haben Leute, die 16h/Tag online sind, das sollte aber nicht der Maßstab sein!).
  • Reine Arbeitszeit die ein Spieler mit mittleren Attributen und MC braucht um Skill 100 zu erreichen: 14h 25min (51.873,8s)
Angenommen ich möchte, dass ein normaler Spieler bei kontinuierlicher Anwendung innerhalb von einem RL Jahr Skill 100 erreichen kann, ergeben sich folgende Zeiten, die für das Schmieden einer Glyphe notwendig sind:
51.873,7s / (365 / 2) = 284s (4 min 44s)
365/2 weil wir ja über 2 unabhängige Skills sprechen (Ringe, Amulette) und die Häufigkeit aus der Verfügbarkeit der Rohmaterialien hergeleitet ist.
Derzeit braucht ein 100% Item 180s (3 min).

Wenn wir jetzt auch noch wollen, dass z.B. niederwertigere Ringe und Amulette schneller geschmiedet werden können ergeben sich für die höherwertigen tatsächlich absurd große Zeiten.
Glauben wir wirklich, dass ein Spieler Spaß an Illa hat, wenn er 10 min auf die Einprägung einer Gyphe in einen Ring warten muss? Ein geglyphter Ring ist immerhin ein Verbrauchsmaterial und um eine Balance zu erreichen, sollte jeder Spieler ein geglyphtes iten / 7 Tage verbrauchen. Damit ein Magier also seine Nichtmagier versorgen kann, muss er wöchentlich durchschnittlich 33 min am Glyphen Ritualort warten. Er spielt 14h.

Ich schlag vor:
  • 1. Keine Trennung von Ring und Amulet Glyphen im Skill. Dann ist die Ritalzeit im Durchschnitt bei 141 s
  • 2. Schwache Verteilung der Ritualzeit von 90 - 190s. Damit ist sichergestellt, dass Anfänger nicht schon im Durchschnitt mehrere Skill Up's pro Aktion bekommen.
Google translate wrote: I've counted on something and I think that we have to think of something here.

Again the basic figures:
  • A glyph can be forged: a glyph / 2h playing time that matches about one day (yes, I know we have people who are online 16h / day, but that should not be the measure !).
  • Pure working time that a player with intermediate attributes and MC needs to reach skill 100: 14h 25min (51.873,8s)
Assuming that a normal player can reach 100 within a RL Year skill of 100, the following times are required for forging a glyph:
51.873.7s / (365/2) = 284s (4 min 44s)
365/2 because we talk about 2 independent skills (rings, amulets) and the frequency is derived from the availability of the raw materials.
Currently, a 100% item needs 180s (3 min).

If we also now wish that e.g. lower-grade rings and amulets can be forged faster for the higher-valued actually absurdly great times.
Do we really believe that a player has fun with Illa when he has to wait 10 minutes for a gypsy to fall into a ring? A gyroid ring is after all a consumable and to achieve a balance, each player should consume a gyphte iten / 7 days. So that a magician can supply his non-magicians, he has to wait an average 33 minutes at the glyph ritual site. He plays 14h.

I suggest:
  • . 1 No separation of Ring and Amulet Glyphs in Skill. Then the average time is 141 seconds
  • . 2 Weak distribution of the ritual time from 90 - 190s. This ensures that beginners do not already get an average of several skill upgrades per action.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Fri Sep 22, 2017 2:27 pm

Re: Glyph Forgers

Banduk wrote:Noch mal die Basis Zahlen:
  • Häufigkeit mit der eine Glyphe geschmiedet werden kann: eine Glyphe / 2h Spielzeit
Worauf basiert diese Annahme? Warum sollte ein Glyphenschmied nur einen kleinen Teil seiner Spielzeit mit dem Schmieden von Glyphen zubringen? Ohne die Zahlen im Detail nachzuvollziehen, es dauert genau gleich lang, jeden Skill zu meistern. Also ein Glyphenschmied bräuchte für seine zwei Skills genauso lange wie für z.B. Schneidern und leichte Rüstungen. Hier mal die Gesamtzahlen von Skills je Richtung, magische Skills sind gemäßt Konzept:

Sammelfertigkeiten: 8
Handwerk: 10
Kampf: 7
Priester: 5 (Templer) + 2 (Segner)
Druiden: 5 (Druiden) + 2 (Alchemisten)
Magie: 5 (Arkan) + 2 (Glyphen)

---
Again the basic figures:
  • A glyph can be forged: a glyph / 2h playing time
What is the basis of this assumption? Why should a glyph forger just spend a minor fraction of his online time for glyph forging? Without checking the numbers in detail, it takes the same time to master each skill. So a glyph forger will use the same time to master his two skills as for e.g. tailoring and light armour. Here are the total numbers of skills per group with magic skills being as per concept:

Gathering: 8
Crafting: 10
Fighting: 7
Priest: 5 (Templar) + 2 (Sanctificator)
Druid: 5 (Druid) + 2 (Alchemist)
Mage: 5 (Arcane) + 2 (Glyphs)

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Post by Banduk » Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:55 pm

Re: Glyph Forgers

Estralis Seborian wrote:
Banduk wrote:Noch mal die Basis Zahlen:
  • Häufigkeit mit der eine Glyphe geschmiedet werden kann: eine Glyphe / 2h Spielzeit
Worauf basiert diese Annahme? Warum sollte ein Glyphenschmied nur einen kleinen Teil seiner Spielzeit mit dem Schmieden von Glyphen zubringen? Ohne die Zahlen im Detail nachzuvollziehen, es dauert genau gleich lang, jeden Skill zu meistern. Also ein Glyphenschmied bräuchte für seine zwei Skills genauso lange wie für z.B. Schneidern und leichte Rüstungen.
...
http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 09#p708109

Im Gegensatz zu den meisten anderen Tätigkeiten kann Glyphen Schmieden nicht im Block ausgeführt werden. Es erfordert 5-20 min Regeneration und ausschließlich seltene Materialien.
Compared to the most other activities glyphs cannot be forged as a mass product. It requires about 5-20 min regeneration and only rare material.

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Post by Charlotte-ate-wilbur » Sat Sep 23, 2017 12:05 am

Re: Glyph Forgers

I also would like to input some rings and amulets use pure elements (namely the diamond rings and amulets that I know of I don't know if emerald rings need elements)

So whats to say a glyph forger would be using the effects from the rings that need elements but not the others because well, are they balanced to be worthwhile? Or would it be easier to make a ruby ring for damage instead of a diamond?

The materials needed for the rings seem to be ignored here, unless I'm misunderstanding :?

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Post by Banduk » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:02 pm

Re: Glyph Forgers

https://youtu.be/PrXHEVPDK34
Kann das so verwendet werden oder ist das so schlecht, dass es lieber in die Tonne getreten werden sollte?

Splitter: verwendet 5 Mölkkies
Ritualplatz: verwendet 1 Mölkki
-----
Can this be used or is it so bad that it should chucked into the dustbin?

Shard: use 5 Mölkkies
Ritual place: use 1 Mölkki

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:24 pm

Re: Glyph Forgers

I'm just inserting this as thought provoking. Why I personally like fighting and magic over crafting and alchemy... The skills are learned a different way. I have one or two items and learn by fighting different monsters or using that item rather then puzzling out what to gather/carry things in my bag and putting them altogether along with gathering and a multitude of other steps needed not to mention static tool.

Glyph Forging. Does it have to be so similar to crafting?

Another off the wall suggestion.. :D . Make it similar to magic since it is like that anyway. Have a tool/not wand maybe mage staff, that can be used to accomplish the task. Skill by using that tool similar to using the wand.

As I said.. just my 2cents :)

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Post by Banduk » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:30 pm

Re: Glyph Forgers

Glyphen schmieden ist irgendwie magisches Handwerk.
Man braucht einen Magier und ein Werkzeug, diesmal ein stationäres denn eine Glyphe schmieden wird bis zu 525 s dauern. Siehe dazu auch http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 14#p708114. Dabei werden verschiedene Rohmaterialen zu einem Endprodukt zusammengefügt.
Es unterscheidet sich vom Handwerk dadurch, dass es kein Werkzeug in der Hand braucht. Das stationäre Werkzeug kann der Spieler selber aufstellen. Siehe dazu http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 10#p708110.

Ich kann den eigentlichen Schmiedeprozess noch etwas anpassen, so dass es mehr wie Magie aussieht. Zum Beispiel indem der Magier mit Zaubersprüchen um sich wirft.

Bitte beachten, das Ganze hat auch noch einen weiteren Teil, den ich noch nicht programmiert habe, den Einsatz der in der Glyphe gespeicherten Mana.


Glyph forging s somehow magical crafting.
You need a mage and a tool, this time a stationary since forging a glyph will take up to 525 s. See http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 14#p708114. It combines different ingredients to a final product too.
It differs from crafting since it do not use a hand tool, the stationary tools will be placed by the player itself. See http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 10#p708110.

I could change the forging behavior a little so it would looks more like magic, maybe throwing some spells around.

Please take into consideration the glyph system has a second part, I didn't code yet. The usage of the mana stored in the glyphe.

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Post by Estralis Seborian » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:31 pm

Re: Glyph Forgers

Looks pretty decent to me! Did you consider to use the crafting dialogue rather than a selection dialogue? Might make more clear to the player what shards are actually missing.

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Post by Banduk » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:48 pm

Re: Glyph Forgers

Bezüglich des Ritualplatzes hätte ich noch eine Idee:
Anstelle die Regierungen zu bemühen, kann jeder Magier mit entsprechenden Skill (sagen wir 25) einen solchen aufstellen, wenn es in der Nähe (z.B. 40 Tiles Umkreis) noch keinen gibt. Dieser verrottet innerhalb eines RL Tages. Auch kann man keine in Städten aufbauen.
Um Missbrauch zu vermeiden würde ich implementieren:
  • Der Ritualplatz beinhaltet auch den sichtbaren Namen des Magiers, der ihn aufgestellt hat.
  • Jeder Charakter mit einer Spitzhacke kann einen solchen Ritualplatz entfernen.
  • Ein Magier kann innerhalb von 3 Spielstunden nur einen Ritualplatz aufstellen.
  • Es gibt einen festen Ritualplatz in der Nähe der Hempty.
Das Ganze hätte den Charm, dass das Errichten des Ritualplatzes Zeit und Material braucht und zum Skill Lernen beim Glyphen beiträgt. Damit könnte ich auch die notwendige Zeit beim Schmieden etwas reduzieren.
google translation wrote: Regarding the ritual square I would have an idea:
Instead of making efforts to the governments, any magician with appropriate skill (say 25) can set up such a one if there is not any near (eg, 40-mile radius). This rotates within a RL day. Also, you can not build in cities.
To avoid misuse I would implement:
  • The ritual square also includes the visible name of the magician who placed it.
  • Any character with a pointed hook can remove such a ritual place.
  • A magician can place only one ritual place within 3 game hours.
  • There is a solid ritual square near the Hempty.
The whole thing would have the charm that the construction of the ritual square needs time and material and contributes to the skill learning with the Glyph. This could also reduce the time needed for forging.

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Post by Banduk » Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:54 pm

Re: Glyph Forgers

Estralis Seborian wrote:Looks pretty decent to me! Did you consider to use the crafting dialogue rather than a selection dialogue? Might make more clear to the player what shards are actually missing.
Der Dialog für Handwerker kann nicht genommen werden, da wir keine neuen Items mehr machen können. Es gibt aber auch nicht genug alte items, die ich umwidmen kann. Deshalb musste ich mit einem Mix aus itemID und itemData arbeiten um auf 49 neue Items zu kommen.
Das hat im Übrigen auch ca. 30% der Zeit gekostet (ich arbeite seit 6 Tagen an dem System).
google translate wrote:The dialogue for craftsmen can not be taken because we can not make new items anymore. But there are not enough old items that I can handle. So I had to work with a mix of itemID and itemData to get 49 new items.
This has also cost about 30% of the time (I have been working on the system for 6 days).

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Post by Banduk » Wed Oct 11, 2017 8:01 pm

Re: Glyph Forgers

How many foodpoints we should take for glyph forging.
The answer: "Same as crafting" is wrong!

For crafting we take 40 points per s work. The longest ritual takes 525 s so it wold need 21.000 foodpoints. That's more than 2 times the full food bar.
I start with 10 points per second.

Wie viele Foodpoints sollten wir für Glyphen Schmieden verbrauchen.
Die Antwort: "Gleich wie beim Handwerk" ist falsch!

Beim Handwerk nehmen wir 40 Punkte pro s. Das längste Ritual dauert 525 s und benötigt 21.000 Nahrungspunkte. Das ist mehr als 2 Mal an Hunger gestorben.
Ich beginne mit 10 Punkten pro Sekunde.

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Post by Vern Kron » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:57 pm

Re: Glyph Forgers

All food points, IMO, since hunger is supposed to be like stamina, right?

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