Guild discussion

[Damien]

Concerning guilds and guild support :

If you get a few people and get an active group, you still get support. Easiest is to gain influence in a town and connect the group with the town. That of course rquires your group to gain town rank and have some members. If you're big enough, you might even kinda "take over" parts of the town. You need to get in contact with the Town GMs for that, mosty by interacting with the town leader NPCs though.

Guild forums: Sure there are "guild" forums. That stuff has been changed because there is not enough staff manpower to moderate those lots of subforums. But it still works.
Some of the bigger guilds ingame have own active forums here.

How that works ? Simply check the support membership stuff.

http://illarion.org/community/de_society.php
That's the german link. You might have to get the english version through your browser.

There's the option to get an own guild forum for members. The forum owner can invite other players or even decide if its publically shown or hidden, as as far as i know.
And: It's 10 bucks per YEAR. That's ultra cheap, makes sure that the illa server keeps running and even gets you two more character slots.

Remember, you just ruin your own and everyone else's mood when you're complaining all the time. Instead ? Go ahead and get yourself a goal. Make a good character with a concept that makes it interesting for you to play it. And then gather some people to do the same. Stop listening to the whining, so it doesnt slow you down, and there you'll see, you will have much more fun.

[Kamilar]

I think there's a divide in the discussion about guilds between what we had in the past and what exists currently.

I can see the guild forum heading on the forum page but I see no threads in it. I'm very surprised to read about all this secret guild activity happening among the larger guilds because in game, there's no evidence of it. I suspect any threads that are still in there are inactive leftovers from the old pre-VBU days apart from possibly some faction government threads and maybe a Bearer's thread but again, I can't see any evidence of it either in game or on the forum. With the exception of the Bearer's, the only efforts I've seen at players starting some autonomous groups has been pretty effectively squashed by faction leadership.

With regards to Illarion membership, I agree the cost is quite low but it demands too much personal information for my comfort level. Further, the self-moderated forum isn't enough of an incentive to shell out that personal information if the efforts in game are only going to be blocked by the culture. In game is where it matters. Pre-VBU, groups didn't have to pay a premium or disclose any personal information to have a guild forum thread. The possibility existed for everyone.

I still think re-instating guilds is a fine idea but it would be a reinstatement because it's not currently a reality. That's not a complaint. Just pointing out how it really is because I think we need to be honest about the current situation if we're hoping to make any improvements on it.


Maybe we should split off the discussion about guilds...

[Alyssa El'anir]

Just a note on the guild stuff. Afaik there is currently both guild depots and guild housing in the development milestones to support such a system.

[Evie]

Any new group that's goal is to do away with factions or take over a faction and get rid of it being GM ran is going to be squashed. Sure conflict is being squashed but so far its all trying to go against the core of the games foundation of the three faction system. Do I like the current faction system , No. But its what we have so instead of beating our heads against a wall that isn't going to move we need to focus on something else than takeover.

[Hew Keenaxe]

Any new group that's goal is to do away with factions or take over a faction and get rid of it being GM ran is going to be squashed. Sure conflict is being squashed but so far its all trying to go against the core of the games foundation of the three faction system. Do I like the current faction system , No. But its what we have so instead of beating our heads against a wall that isn't going to move we need to focus on something else than takeover.

No please dont stop. You have voted with your lack of player base. Keep pushing on these forums. The three GM, and thus because of lack of support, three GM ran town idea is broken. Just make it sandbox. Those that care to play, care make it how they like. They are the ones IG, if you dont like how they play, get IG. Having a GM make the rules we all have to live by, but only shows up for very special reasons ( and sometimes being lead by one that isnt even that GM) is a terrible thing for those of us that show up near every day. We invest our time. We invest our characters to live a certain way. Then, someone shows up and all of us bow down to that great wisdom of the GM of the day. If you dont play near every day, at least once a week, you should have no say on how the rest of us live. And I mean play, not just be a GM, logged in the shadows. You must interact.

[Karrock]

I have stupid question... How you imagine a "new guild"? As I know it's not forbiden to start a guild in game but game needs some regulations. If there would not exist some regulations then old chars/players would take over all realms. And there is no because their skills but good connections in and out game. Towns rule by GM are much fair. And yes IG are more than one guild. Only I'm not sure do rest than bearers try to get their offices IG.

[Keva Bran]

If you want to take over a town and still keep it GM run make it something like the dons brother is put into the position of power something fun. Me personally I hated player run town. If you where not part of the clique you where left to fend for your self. Is the three faction sys. Perfect no. But let's not back track to something worse. Let's find ways to work together for fun rp and quit complaining and work with the GMs. And come up with fresh ideas not the same broken ones. And my example of the dons brother would go like you put him in power and he makes three chancellor of the group that puts him in power. And they run it. And work with the new don to make the town in their image.

[Kamilar]

I've seen more groups try to band together beyond the ones trying to take over the world. Most recently -- and I apologize if any feelings are hurt by pointing this out -- there was the Galmair guard that had its autonomy removed to the extent that the players involved didn't want to participate further and the group was forcibly disbanded. I mean, maybe they were actually trying to take over the town but that's not how it looked to me. And in Cadomyr, it's actually forbidden to form a guild unless your character is one that has been elevated to rank 8 or higher by the GM. A few people tried to start groups there and were forced to disband them. Aeghol had to move his band to the wilderness for the brief time he ran it.

Personally, I have no interest in player government. I found it uninteresting in the old client and the VBU hasn't added anything of interest to it IMO. I don't see the attraction for people in trying to force their way in but if that's what they want, I don't personally see a RP problem with it. Obviously no individual or group can remove the GM from ultimate power but I don't see a problem with overthrowing any or all of the players in the faction leadership positions. Players shouldn't get too cozy in those spots anyway, IMO. Having the same players controlling the town governments forever makes things stagnant and dull. I don't think it should go without saying that these groups will be squashed. I say those groups deserve the same support as any other group so long as they respect the GM and the other players involved in the RP. That's where the player interest lies and that's what builds conflict which the game desperately needs.

[Mephistopheles]

I feel that a few things should be mentioned from my own experience.

Illarion's gms are not above the rules, a normal player cannot claim via forum to have a masked police force of npcs (even though at that time there was certainly enough players to fill that role). They also cannot use emotes in which theres no reacting back. My experience with trying any sort of plot against a town (or a quest monster for that matter) is that I get no chance to fight back and I am forced to accept whatever is thrown on my plate because it is a "consequence" even though the char was never really caught (but banned from Runewick even though the conflict involved Cadomyr lol).

Gms often squash guilds for little to no reason, groups of 8-10 people just tossed aside instead of even trying to redirect them into that masked police force or something else. They also accept hearsay and pointless gossip about characters and use that to condemn them instead of using real chars to send out to investigate. Take for instance the char Bob, seems everyone from Galmair to Runewick had some gossip that was loaded with nonsense (varying tidbits had strains of truth but most things said were outrageous falsehoods in which the gm leader took to heart before investigating further, things said like the char was a slaver, demon worshiper, amongst other things that were even out of character information). Given this information along with a petty accusation from runewick, the char was surrounded by a police force of non-existant characters and had no way to react, others seem to be hit by teleporting arrows with no chance to dodge or take defensive action. Seems like a steep price to pay for hearsay and gossip. Bob helped lead one of the largest organized groups in the game at that time and instead of playing with the players the guild was squashed by all powerful banning gms.

Gms need clear guidelines on how exactly they can affect characters as town leaders, because left to their own devices problems arise. This at least was a very real problem. Instead of thinking of immerive ways to work with the players they constantly work against them, and I'm not the most intelligent person but I'm 100% sure that constantly squashing guilds that make up 10% or more of your player base is a huge design flaw. There's always this huge emphasis on cooperation, and thats a grand ideal and I'd love to roleplay cooperatively with any of the gms, so long as it's not their story that they control, it's Illarion's.

How about we try letting the players roleplay as they desire, like if 8-10 people want to start a brotherhood with it's focus being against all forms of religion, then don't make them have a priest to do any special event or special thing when they're willing to negotiate. If some crazy militaristic leader randomly tries to seize control of a town then do your best to get players involved to defend their town, if they succeed then go into hiding like anyone else would, make alliances and take your shit back. You gain some ground, you lose some ground.. Thats cooperation.

Stop ignoring the organized groups that continue to pop up, these are players trying to find interest in playing.

[Q-wert]

And in Cadomyr, it's actually forbidden to form a guild unless your character is one that has been elevated to rank 8 or higher by the GM. A few people tried to start groups there and were forced to disband them. Aeghol had to move his band to the wilderness for the brief time he ran it.

There is nothing forbidding to form guilds in Cadomyr. It is forbidden to form Noble Houses (as a Noble House implies, well nobility and right to rule over other people. Noble Houses also have some few exclusive rights in matters of local law and judgement). During Ssar'neys activity there was not a single Cadomyrian guild disbanded by the town leadership or its gms.
Lonos band did (figuratively speaking) shit onto the table of one of the nobles and demanded very exclusive rights, such as owning large parts of the desert. While these exclusive rights were denied, as they for one had done nothing for the Realm and for the other offended the local leadership, they were offered to become regular citizens with their organisation intact.
The Crimson Order disbanded on its own due to inactivity and lack of members, the town leadership did have it stripped of its privilege of acting as the Cadomyrian army due to its poor state. Should it have recovered from that and risen to its former glory, an reinstatement would merely have been a formality.

I'd very much like to know what organisations 'were' forced to disband by the leadership.

On another note (speaking for Cado): Most decisions coming from the town gms are forwarded decisions of the player characters in charge. The town gm only acts over the had of the player-leadership if something really big happened (such as someone doing an full out attack against the settlement after a field battle had been declared over by the gm and some people on the defending side had already logged off).

[Djironnyma]

I playing a head of an illarion guild now for 8 years, longer as any other guild in Illarion ever existed so i may have "some" experience with guilds i want to share with you.

• You are nothing. Dont try to be the big infallible leader. Without the other guild members you have absolute no power. A guild is ever a community where everyone need a role witch benefits and suit him.
• Be active and creative. Nothing will happen if you dont come up with ideas, plans, goals.
• There are GMs which are more willing to support your guilds ideas and there are GMs which are less willing, but in any relevant matters the GMs deciding in union so that personal relationships doesnt wigh much.In any case i never had the feeling that ideas which bring more dynamic, more events into the game were blocked by the GMs.
• No matter how smart, strong or many you are. You cant live for your own. You need Allies, especially in your hometown, otherwise you will fail. The Order dont took over Runewick because we fought against Elvaine but because we played his game after his rules till we had the power to change the rules. I m quiet sure you can reach the same in Galmair and Cadomyr.
• Even if it would be "nice to have" there is no need for special guild rooms, guild depots or guild NPCs. Organisation is the key. Every member of your guild has special abilities and can care about specific task like holding a guilds treasure. You are able to rent and decorate rooms for your need in every town (and even by borgate).
• There is no need for a guild forum. For public announcement you can post in the hemp necktie in forum or a towns forum. For intern matters you can donate to the society to get a forum here or open a free forum in the internet (like we done it all in the past).
• Dont give up. There are times which are easy and time which are hard. But success is to a big part ever toughness.

Its right that there is not much special guild support* and that it would nice to have more support*. But anyway we hadn’t any support* in the past and there were thousands of guilds. Nothing rly hinder you to create and play a guild.

edit:*engine wise support

[Mephistopheles]

I playing a head of an illarion guild now for 8 years, longer as any other guild in Illarion ever existed so i may have "some" experience with guilds i want to share with you.

• You are nothing. Dont try to be the big infallible leader. Without the other guild members you have absolute no power. A guild is ever a community where everyone need a role witch benefits and suit him.
• Be active and creative. Nothing will happen if you dont come up with ideas, plans, goals.
• There are GMs which are more willing to support your guilds ideas and there are GMs which are less willing, but in any relevant matters the GMs deciding in union so that personal relationships doesnt wigh much.In any case i never had the feeling that ideas which bring more dynamic, more events into the game were blocked by the GMs.
• No matter how smart, strong or many you are. You cant live for your own. You need Allies, especially in your hometown, otherwise you will fail. The Order dont took over Runewick because we fought against Elvaine but because we played his game after his rules till we had the power to change the rules. I m quiet sure you can reach the same in Galmair and Cadomyr.
• Even if it would be "nice to have" there is no need for special guild rooms, guild depots or guild NPCs. Organisation is the key. Every member of your guild has special abilities and can care about specific task like holding a guilds treasure. You are able to rent and decorate rooms for your need in every town (and even by borgate).
• There is no need for a guild forum. For public announcement you can post in the hemp necktie in forum or a towns forum. For intern matters you can donate to the society to get a forum here or open a free forum in the internet (like we done it all in the past).
• Dont give up. There are times which are easy and time which are hard. But success is to a big part ever toughness.

Its right that there is not much special guild support* and that it would nice to have more support*. But anyway we hadn’t any support* in the past and there were thousands of guilds. Nothing rly hinder you to create and play a guild.

edit:*engine wise support

I agree with much of what you posted Dji, however I have found personally that it's incredibly difficult to get players interested in your guild and then the lack of ingame communication also hurts. I found it very difficult to get people together and to see how they were doing. Guild halls would be nice but that ig dove message proposal thats been floating around for three years would help Guilds thrive too.

What we need are some compromises. I have seen the same proposals hit these boards again and again over three years some written by developers, others by players. I can honestly say I haven't seen very many be seriously considered. When players and not just one or a few, but many, think that something would help the game that they play maybe someone should look into those feature requests that keep getting resurfaced.

[Damien]

Well - as much fun as a little conflict play can be - you run much longer with a less radical agenda for a guild concept. The farmer's union, for example, was a guild that had a simple, yet fun-inducing little concept. It lasted much longer than most other "evil-domination-action-only" oriented things, and they still had a load of fun and action.
Plus, if your group does not have the goal to annoy everyone on the map by washing over it with undead again and again, it's much more likely that you find support by gamemasters - simply because your goals are modest enough to be game compatible for other people than fighter characters.

The "action" in the game does not even need to be enforced by a group's philosophy. If you get a group of considerable size, be sure that action will find you, after a while.
Well, if you really want to make a guild concept that attracts other players, you definitely need to come with something creative.


But however good your concept is - if illarion does not have enough players to support another active group, it fails !
And if you have a community atmosphere where it is daily usus of posting long rants and complaints on the forums, well, no new player will feel welcomed if the third or sixth topic he reads consists of flaming and senseless accusations.
What will that newbie do ? Simply read it, think "oh this game is nothing for me, most likely", and you'll never see him again.

So there IS a lot of work to be done, before the main source of problems - the lack of active players - gets solved.
Mainly in trying to change the atmosphere back from all these endless, senseless chains of complaints and rants and whining into something much more friendly, bright and welcoming, so new players may actually feel welcome and at ease.
And stay a while, for a change.

Anyone with me ?

[Estralis Seborian]

I also noticed the absence of guilds in Illarion since the VBU. There are a few strong ones around, but most guilds formed seem to lack proper objectives to achieve. As we have predefined towns now instead of "town founding guilds", there seems to be a certain lack of creative goals. If I read that overthrowing the whole faction systems stills seems to be a common goal, I can only say that you don't kill Lord British in Ultima or Gandalf in Lord of the Rings Online. Still, much more static games than Illarion have plenty of guilds. Did anyone found a trading guilds? A crafters guild? A story telling club?

I cannot believe that GMs just squash all attempts to form guilds. If there are concrete actions that are questionable, please address them to the GMs and we can find a solution. But if e.g. three characters group up to kill the Don, I seriously doubt the Don will sit around and not take any action. I also strictly fight the impression that a guild is a "premium thing". If it is just because there is not one dedicated subforum for guilds anymore but four area related RP boards instead of formerly two generic ones, then I am really puzzled how much driving force / esteem these guilds really have. But I doubt this is the real reason, anyway.

I'd like to offer my help in realising as much guild support as possible, even though I also remember a time when there was just one town, no housing, no guild subforums, no nothing but still plenty guilds. To know what is needed, please give me your top 3 missing features, preferably linked with a Mantis ticket. If your feature is not covered by a Mantis ticket, please file one so it is not forgotten. Note that "guilds" are one aspect associated with Milestone V and we are still working on the first milestones of development. I will start myself (and link the Mantis tickets later ).

1. Player housing within defined real estate inside the factions' homelands for guilds

http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=9829

2. Guild administration functionality to track membership and guild ranks ingame

http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=11291

3. Player lookAt window to display guild membership

http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=7007
http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=7024

PS: For all those who think they can take on a big "guild"... http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... =1&t=38356

[Kamilar]

My top three, and I'm sorry for not checking Mantis, but I hate it ...

1. A guild area apart from the factions with free transport to and from your home city.

2. Something that can be instituted immediately as we wait for the guild milestone - while we have to build the guilds inside the current faction system, a directive to town leaders to recruit a guild quota. We need to be sure we're not working at cross-purposes and really all get on the same side. Faction leaders should be required to demonstrate that they can recruit or - at the very bare minimum - retain citizens and roleplay activity in their respective towns.

3. A devoted forum. --- And while we're at it, the roleplay forums in general have suffered in the post-VBU world. The forums are used now primarily for trading and announcements. There is very little actual roleplay happening on them and they have lost their sparkle.


Also, I'm wondering why Estralis linked us to the GM application thread? That thread says applications are not being accepted. Wires crossed?

@ Q-wert - we can discuss details via PM if you're interested. This isn't really the place for it.

[Estralis Seborian]

Thanks for the feedback. I've added the corresponding Mantis tickets to my points. Quick questions on the raised points:

1. A guild area apart from the factions with free transport to and from your home city.

Is this covered by http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=9829?

2. Something that can be instituted immediately as we wait for the guild milestone

What is this "something"? http://illarion.org/mantis/view.php?id=11291?

3. A devoted forum.

The faction boards' descriptions read e.g. "All about Runewick and its Guilds.". Would a dedicated subforum for each faction improve the situation or would the decreased visibility cause more harm than good?

[Kamilar]

The first one is more about player built housing which is very cool but I was more thinking about a place outside the factions where people could meet for guild business. Those two things could work together but more what I had in mind is people forming neutral guilds without regard to citizenship and being able to travel there without cost like what we used to have to go to Borgate's. With the small player base, I'd like to see the guilds as a separate, player controlled aspect of the game where faction citizenship doesn't matter so much.

My second suggestion is less a development item and more a cultural shift. We've historically had (both post-VBU and in the old client) the 'your-type-isn't-welcome-here' RP and I'd like to see faction leaders accountable to some extent for that behavior. I'm not sure how that could be implemented on the development side. Maybe a citizen tool, like the leader tool, where citizens can give specific feedback. Currently in some factions, player leaders are given a lifelong appointment and players have no voice at all and while not everyone wants to play politics and run a town, everyone wants to have and should have the same opportunity to play in the sandbox.

With regards to the forum, I think a separate guild forum would be best. If a guild is faction specific, they could use either the guild board or the faction board but I'd like to see multi-faction guilds. Personally, I think guilds should be an option for players to get outside of the faction system and start developing a player driven culture. I think that would add a lot of interest to the game.