Static tools

[Hew Keenaxe]

I know I have suggested this, somewhere, sometime ago and maybe it is already a mantis thing (I don't/wont use mantis) but cant remember it being discussed.
We should have static crafting tools located somewhere outside of towns. There are many ruins across the map. In some of these, one different tool should be found. This will allow those that choose to live outside of town or those that cant be in town to still craft. This will not remove the benefit of belonging to a town. In town, you have all that you need in safety and close to a depot. The remote, wilderness tools should be far from a depot and in a place that needs some, not crazy hard, work to get too. All that I have seen that can be used are cooking pots and leather stretching racks. If you want to continue with game engine enforced bans, then theses tools should be available outside of town walls. And before you start flaming me about sour grapes for Hew being banned, Hew currently has access to all tools and is free to enter 2 of the 3 towns. But, if someone was banned from Galmair, they are then basically also banned from Cadomyr and Ruinwick doesn't have any metal working tools. So this needs to be provided outside of town walls.
Also, a repair NPC should reside at Hemp Necktie Inn. Maybe he charges more to keep the advantage of town life but is needed if NPC's are going to enforce town boundaries.

[Achae Eanstray]

I don't see how this would discourage town living... the tools can be placed where they are difficult to simply stay and work, possibly need to fight some to get to them and can be an encouragement for those that wish to play a more creative role in the game.

[Estralis Seborian]

The tools were put into the towns for a reason. I fail to see the overall positive effect for the game as a whole of this proposal. Maybe you can elaborate?

[Hew Keenaxe]

The tools were put into the towns for a reason. I fail to see the overall positive effect for the game as a whole of this proposal. Maybe you can elaborate?

I can. you fail

If a character, a smith, is banned from galmair. He is then also banned from Cadomyr. Ruinwick doesn't have any metalworking tools. He is done.
But that is just one example. Being cut off from town, with no other outlet is bad for that player, thus bad for the game.
Do you want more players? then give them options, even the bad ones.

[Estralis Seborian]

I am absolutely not convinced.

[Hew Keenaxe]

I am absolutely not convinced.

I'm not surprised. The other major failing of this game.

[Jupiter]

If a character, a smith, is banned from galmair. He is then also banned from Cadomyr. Ruinwick doesn't have any metalworking tools. He is done.

He can join Runewick and go to work in Cadomyr.
Or he can join Cadomyr (maybe indirectly over Runewick) and work in Cadomyr.
He is not done.

[Hew Keenaxe]

If a character, a smith, is banned from galmair. He is then also banned from Cadomyr. Ruinwick doesn't have any metalworking tools. He is done.

He can join Runewick and go to work in Cadomyr.
Or he can join Cadomyr (maybe indirectly over Runewick) and work in Cadomyr.
He is not done.

Actually not true.
When Hew was banned from Galmair,. he did game engine join Runewick but was soon cast out by the player base (wont say his name here) because they didnt want him. And Cadymyr was still out. He finally got back to a town after Galmair lowered its ban that he could join Cadomyr ( now banned there ) but if his ban in Galmair hadn't been forgiven he would be without a town, even if he wanted one. Now Hew is without a town but doesnt want one. I say that so any wont think this is a complaint. But I can make this post from experience. It is doubtful a newer player will be willing to lose so much without quiting. Just give them a way to survive. Repairs and some ability to craft.

[Jupiter]

Who manages to be kicked out from multiple towns has far greater problems to deal with than "Where is my amboss?". Someone who plays such a reckless char should be able to handle playing a character in a difficult life situation - that includes an environment that lacks certain resources.

[Hew Keenaxe]

Who manages to be kicked out from multiple towns has far greater problems to deal with than "Where is my amboss?". Someone who plays such a reckless char should be able to handle playing a character in a difficult life situation - that includes an environment that lacks certain resources.

Again you miss it. Seems to always be the case when dealing with you "GM's" I said, made a point of it, "I" wasnt complaining. Hew is fine. Just let him be and talk to me , the player.
If, my first time player is an arsehole and gets banned from Galmair, it is a two town ban. That is wrong...But not the point of this post.
The point is, why not let there be static tools in the wilderness that can be used?
You are so busy attacking me, you havent answered that.

[Jupiter]

The point is, why not let there be static tools in the wilderness that can be used?

Because it's the wilderness.

[Mephistopheles]

Relax Hew.

I really find it difficult to understand the vehement arguments to keep town bans and still cut out basic things you need to play the game. Why not have have static tools in remote parts of the game? And what about the sandbox housing? Say someone wanted a depot and an anvil is that such a bad thing? It should cost more obviously.

The main advantage of living in a town are the quests set by gms and players, ridiculously easy magic gems, static tools, and chance to get a higher and important rank. Oh and repair npcs.

So.. again outlaws have absolutely none of that. What this proposal requests is a slight balance. Static tools in hard to reach places seems fitting why wouldnt the hammerfall/schnelllbeil have anvil that are usable??? Oh and seriously why is a repair npc so hard? Its not like these things give outlaws a huge advantage does it?

[Mephistopheles]

The point is, why not let there be static tools in the wilderness that can be used?

Because it's the wilderness.

So apparently the dwarven clans, orc tribes, secret bjolmur cults under the mountain, bandit/pirate coves, etc etc. all of these guys get their weapons and resources from thin air... brilliant can my char learn how to do that as an outlaw??

[TiaSarah]

I wonder if there could be a possibility for some fun RP here, creating an outlaw "settlement" of sorts.... Not an actual village, but more of a camp. A couple of shacks(or even just bedrolls under a tree), and a few (not all) static tools. With no real government, there would be no protection from the surrounding wilderness. As Achae alluded to above, you'd have to risk fighting while you worked, or even waking up to find you're cuddling with a troll. No walls, no guards... the kind of place you tell your children horrible stories about to keep them on the straight and narrow, and the first place a Guard looks when a crime occurs. Perhaps somewhere near the Necktie, but far enough away to require more than just a teleporter ride to get there. By all means, make them work for it.

Turn it into a quest even, make the outlaws gather materials, clear the area and such to bring the idea to life. A group of them get fed up with Borgate charging for rooms and decide to make their own living quarters. I don't think it's unreasonable that a group of outcasts might form a rough camp. I honestly imagine that's how the town of Gynk was founded. I think the point here is that outlaws are still characters. They don't necessarily have to be banned from all the towns, if any, maybe they just want to play a character who prefers to live outside the boundaries of more civil life. That's the joy of playing a true role-playing game though, having the freedom to make your own path.

[Yridia Anar]

I really really like the proposal from Tia.
After reading the comments I got a little bit the feeling outlaws aren't really welcome. But I do welcome them, they are the spice in Illarion( if they stay in the rules for sure ).

Also even a non fight character - like me - could has a place as druid and healer there, if she gets the respect of the outlaws. This has again a great potential for awesome RP.
It would be a good thing to think about - and I am sure it could draw new players who decide to play a shady/bad character deeper into the game and let them stay

Just my 2 cents to this

EDIT: Yridia did chose to be an outlaw - and can't enter Cadomyr in this case. She lives with, since towns never where a place she wanted to live in

[Ranwyln]

I think "real" outlaws aren't welcome or at least not wanted. I understand that their is no wish for a fourth town or something like that. But at the moment when you are playing an outlaw/badass/evil one, you normally sooner or later are banished from all three towns, and than you will have to live with your armour rotting away from yer body, no tools whatever. Since i play the VBU i really dont like that. There are medium conflicts between the towns...but in the end they all work together (Mas, other events and so on) and other conflicts coming from the playerbase (like evil chars), will sooner or later end up devastated cause of lacking support. So you can play it RP wise (like text rpg) but not for real, unless you have a supporting secret memberbase living in the towns (what is pretty hard to get cause we dont have so much ppl playing the game). In my eyes it wouldnt harm the game to give the game at least a place with a few basics for outlaws.. (some tools, maybe a wandering merchant that only comes around a few times a week where they can repair their stuff and buy some supplies). I think it could even attract more people.

Just my five cents

[GolfLima]

* "outlaws" doesnt meean criminals here
* in "real live" "outlaws" can enter towns sometimes (no guard knows all people // there are different ways to enter a town)
* here guards knows all people also if they have changed their look or something like that -> so wen need an equivalent compensation
* normally "outlaws" have a place where they meet and can work (may be different places)
* outlaws are an important factor - we dont punish them

(( as a side note: an "outlaw - druid" is unable to learn new receipts when he cant enter the towns ))

[Ufedhin]

Its been covered before! there will not be another town or town like set up for the outcasts,and thank goodness for that ,im with the dev's on this one.
Outcasts are outlawed for many reasons and outlawed life is suposed to be tough and unpleasent...eg a smith is outlawed for whatever but he cant be bothered working to get himself allowed back in town what are his options then? bandidtry, resource gathering and selling etc but his trade is lost as wild forges dont exist , and as to the dwarves of hammerfell and other races in the wild, well they dont have to tell us where they get there equipment now do they?
This bizarre desire of so many to have everything wrapped in cotton wool totally amazes me .

IF YOU GET OUTLAWED ,WORK TO MAKE AMENDS AND GET BACK INTO TOWN !OR BECOME A BANDIT MAKE THE TOWNS FOLK WEEP FOR THERE CRUELTY!

Banditry would be greatly helped in we lost stuff if we are ghosted as we once did , banditry now days i must admit relies only on rp ....which is a bit sad for the bandit,as most folk dont give up gold an armour etc as a brief trip to Cherga is nothing.

[Mephistopheles]

I agree with Ufe partially, Banditry is mostly out of the question, I had a conversation ingame about why I gave an evil char a magic gem.... the char annihilated about four people, to further run around and yammer on would have been dumb, so my char decided he didn't really feel like dying or see someone else killed and questioned later as to why he didn't help. So yes my char gave a magic gem because he did not feel like dying.

however, as a game standpoint I do not see why repair npcs and static tools spread far from depots and in combat areas would make things a walk in the park for outlaws. Repair npcs are basic if outlaws can't have them then neither should the towns, end of story. Also stop the auto banning of outlaws from Cadomyr, thats retarded.

Again outlaws do not have safety, outlaws do not get gems, and outlaws do not have access to traders, and outlaws cannot raise their rank to be something important. [That is quite enough to make it difficult on outlaws, anything more is ridiculous.

[Alytys Lamar]

I do not think it has to do with

everything wrapped in cotton wool

No one intends to have this.
There hasn't to be a town either, but a little help (especially repair) would be helpfully for playing a shady character. Let him visit all 10 days in Hempties or something.

I ask you Ufe - where is the point to play a RP-Game with all options if the option to play such a character isn't possible - ?
I remember you did wrote somewhere that Illarion needs some conflicts and danger - I say not only IG events/GM'S should be able to create this.
Also there is a god who is fond of this characters if you remember the lore.

So give the players a bit freedom to play this out - and so I think Tia's proposal is a very good one. And it will be a dangerous hard life for an bad outlaw if done right. They do not need to be pampered, but if there is nothing to help them to survive they will quit. THAT is the least we want for this game !

[Jupiter]

Also stop the auto banning of outlaws from Cadomyr, thats retarded.

I think that can be seen as an inagem problem. And that what can be see nas an inagem problem should be seen as an ingame problem.
Outlaws can try to get access to the town (Merung and Falyame werfe granted that) or the inhabitants of Cadomyr can try to challenge that policy. In my eyes, there is no need for ooc intervention in that one.

[Ufedhin]

True somethings need to be done to make playing an outlaw more viable ,but providing crafting tools that are in towns to the wilds dont make any sense at all, who's going to maintain these things in working condition? placing them in ruins might be fine but they should not work, after all if the buildings have collapsed why should the tools still be in good working order?.
As to repair folk ,think on it, to repair many of the items you would need these static tools to do so ,so no repair man in the inn or in the wilds.
Industries ie, static tools belong to large groups of people working together in a town, village or city like enviroment,it just makes no sense that these valuable order and cooperation based economic tools are scatted through out the wilds in odd places and ruins mystically maintained by gnomes of the wild for all an sundry to use.


Playing an outlaw is very differcult and somethings need to be done to make this alittle more sustainable ,but static tools and repair men are not it.

[Hew Keenaxe]

Ufedhin, sorry but cant agree with you here.
first, I dont know how many times I have been told, "it is a game not RL" This has been an answer to things like archery, magic, death, but also social things. And in truth, they are right. Some consolations need to be made for the good of the players. I see the least of these being a repair npc. If for any reason, someone isnt part of a town, by choice or not, they should still be able to have the few things they do have last. They already are barred from npc traders, cant buy or sell. They already maybe, if outlawed, barred from going to town to meet people that may trade. They get no gems, though pay no taxes.Yet cant buy such gems for anywhere near what taxes would be for a character that cant have a trade. My idea about some tools in the wilderness evens some of this out. It still doesnt level the field. And i would expect it to be level.But to say just because I dont belong to a town, I cant cut down a tree and whittle the branches into a club? Really? that ability came before towns. But in this game need a crafting table. I cant roast fish over a fire, but need a smoke oven? Or I cant even make a tool to fish with? How did we ever evolve enough to build towns? Some tools should be provided. But to keep all the townies happy, make them in more dangerous places, farf from a depot. But dont say , " you cant do it".

[Mephistopheles]

Repair npcs at the Inn, I see no problem in realism there. Static tools in various areas, not ruins, but in areas populated with bandits like the Elstree forest for example they used to have a gem cutter. The dwarves of hammerfall should have a smelter and an anvil, the Schnellbeil dwarves should have a carpentry table, these are not easy access areas for working even for maxed chars. I once again fail to understand why this argument is even taking place, there are people in the staff that say "screw realism this is a fantasy game" yet contradict themselves and make it impossible for outlaw chars to play a decent lifestyle. Well here I, and others, give realistic reasons why these things should be accessible.

Tell me Jupiter and any other who likes to play a druid character, how would you feel if all the cauldrons were taken out of the wilderness? It's obviously not fair that the druids/alchemists can use their craft in the wilderness but Noone else can. Seriously? This argument is just getting tedious and ridiculous if I haven't convinced any of the staff with all of these valid points then I give up trying to explain it. though keep in mind it appears I am not the only one pointing these things out.

Mephy rampage

[Vilarion]

Repeating the argument over and over won't make it more or less valid

We are currently discussing internally whether or not to add basic support for outlaw chars. Please bear with us!

[Mephistopheles]

Got it, and thanks.

Hopefully this gets straightened out.

[Estralis Seborian]

I should add that it is well within the game design to have basic support for outlaws. The question here is just what "basic" means. We discuss this question internally. However, the necessary arguments are beyond what one can read this thread. We have to take the whole game into account, not just "I want...", "realistic..." or "nice idea".

Keep in mind that the game already has basic support for characters that are not member of a faction. There is a depot, a cross, two traders, an own faction status and a central place to gather. Now we need to see what has to be added to make this a better game for all, not for some selected players.

One thing is for sure: We will not install a fourth town with lots of tools and traders and call it Outlawville. The point of being an outlaw is to be an outlaw, not to be member of yet another town you don't want to be member of.

[Fooser]

One thing is for sure: We will not install a fourth town with lots of tools and traders and call it Outlawville. The point of being an outlaw is to be an outlaw, not to be member of yet another town you don't want to be member of.

Why not? With the lack of conflict, we should be rolling out the red carpet and giving them whatever they want.

[Mephistopheles]

I dont think making an outlaw sub-town is a good idea either. There isnt a large group of chars to support this and so it shouldnt be possible.

[Estralis Seborian]

We discussed about this issue internally. Some measures were agreed on, see Mantis tasks #10381 to #10386.