Skill limit

[Estralis Seborian]

Fighting system will be reworked from scratch with the very big update. Again: If an action at low levels isn't convenient, it is a problem of the action, not the skill system. But if you e.g. level some skills in two days to maximum while other skills take half a year to get past level 40, then something is wrong with the skill system.

All in all, yes, Illarion has its problems, we try to fix them but that takes time. But we know about the problems and reasonable solutions. All we lack is manpower!

[Llama]

I believe Ezor just hit the nail on the head, a begging miner, carpentor, smith and crafting or collecting profession is useful from the beginning. Fighters are NOT. Yet, there are many PG'rs of both fighters AND crafters/collecters. Who do the people bitch about....?

Fighters.

#w you need a ton of leather to smith anything in this present time

[Darkshade]

*shrug* an optomised mage could easily collect looots of leather with just a dagger. Not to mention there arnt many smiths,

[Cascarrabias]

Kind of a pointless discussion you all are having here. And it's always the same story at every game community that thinks themselves a cut above the rest, that RP is the only reason for the existence of this "game", I call that dilutional BS. If you make a game with levels, Guess what? it ain't a game for only Role Play. If the sole purpose of this game's intention was to RP, it would not matter if it had skills to level. Everyone could make things and fight and do everything else at the max output and RP between the players would dictate the outcomes cause everyone is equal. And with all being equal, everyone could stand around and chat all day long, cause their would be no other point for logging on.

I'm surprised with all the PG haters here no one has heard the concept of RP'n a fight, or at the very least most of you forgot it while ranting on your posts. Whether the two players battling each other had maxed fighting skills or were noobs, the game mechanics would be ignored and the RP hits and misses would still rain supreme. That's how a level-less system works, everyone is the same level with the same abilities and when RP confrontations occur being that everyone is equal the RP would dictate the outcome. And if you have taken it this far might as well take out the skills cause why have game mechanics cluttering up the pipelines when everything could be made and done via RP. Oh hell, lets just take this to an AOL private chat session and forget about all this graphical nonsense too. Cause back there, when you took the levels away and then the skills, this stopped being a game and became a chat room. Sure with avatars instead of static pictures but a Chat room all the same.

BUT...

This game was not intended to be just another chat session with avatars. Hence the levels. If you don't like playing with PG, or as I call them, regular gamers, cause thats the whole concept in games, that you achieve something and get to the end or beat everyone and start all over again, collect all the cards and pass go, if you don't like the surrounding and the company, petition the Admins for change, ask them to convert Illarion from a GAME to a Chatroom. Simple no more Game. What's that saying, "Don't hate the player, hate the game"..

[Ezor Edwickton]

That's how a level-less system works, everyone is the same level with the same abilities and when RP confrontations occur being that everyone is equal the RP would dictate the outcome

So the first person to '#me stabs you in the heart' wins?

The skill levels are there to support the rp not the other way around is the point.

[Grokk]

Did you even read the thread, Cascarrabias?

[Cascarrabias]

So the first person to '#me stabs you in the heart' wins?

The skill levels are there to support the rp not the other way around is the point.

Yeah, it's kinda obvious you don't know how to Role Play a fight.

The skills and levels and in general the game mechanics aren't there to support RP, you don't need them at all to Role Play. People have done open session RP in the past quite well, a play with no one director you might say, everyone copilots that job. Sure, the advent of rules as in D&D and similar, help pacify the arguments, but they are not meant to encourage RP they are just an agreement that everyone signs on at the beginning on how things can and cannot occur. Yet they do nothing for the RP in general, just set boundaries. Just like in any game, I mean, there's no solider units or fighting in Monopoly(well there fighting afterwards but as a result of the games outcome) cause the rules don't support it. But again I'm talking about games. A RP chat session much like an open play doesn't require the stringent rules of a game and in fact those rules tend to suppress it. The same kind of suppression you are griping about. Game mechanics that favor those that play the game vs people that come for the theatrics and ambiance.

And what I'm trying to convey is very black and white, you either have a game with all its trappings or you have a theatrical play where people take on roles and act them out with out restriction. Trying to separate what makes a game a game and replacing that essence with the theatrics of a play will not work, the two don't coexist well together. Hence this BS that goes on everywhere on the net, when game is coded and then advertised as RP only.

So you may want to throw the the acronym RPG, Role Playing GAME, into the ring. Yeah its a game, that is very controlled from start to finish, with all the trappings, requirements and conformities that come with a game, You are usually playing alone or are directed by a game master. You take on a role but there is very little deviation if any, if you don't like playing that role, restart. Here though and in pretty much all other MMOs it is monumentally too difficult to if not next to impossible for the Admins to take on the role of a director and there for rely on game mechanics to do all the rule checks.

In PnP, the GM can circumvent a rule to keep the players happy, in an MMO that cannot happen because the base is too large for any divergence, with out calling in favoritism. And maybe this is what's confusing you all, this is an MMO, where small PnP styles of play cannot occur, even if a GM is there present to the action. No instead of a RP session with a few friends and a game master, you are having to deal with game mechanics that changed the session from an Open Play to a Game. The only way an MMO can truly be RP only if it doesn't have any mechanics, where the players are left to form those small grouped PnP session with a GM, but where everyone is the GM. Then that works cause there's nothing to get in the way of the role playing.

If you don't like the atmosphere of a game, suppressing it will not solve the problem, you got to get rid of it completely. You cannot use the argument that a games mechanics are there only to support the RP, because they don't and there lies the start of the problem. You are wearing blinders if you think that way.

If this is a game with all the trappings of a game, you WILL have people playing the game and coming just for that reason.
If this is not a game but a Role Play environment, then you got to cut out all the gaming concepts or you will constantly have people coming to play the game, thus ruining the atmosphere with their "game play". and in retrospect the mechanics do limit and ruin the Role Play from start to end.

[Ezor Edwickton]

I'm just going to say that I disagree with you and leave it at that.

[Grokk]

You just called Illarion a MMO.

[Cascarrabias]

Did you even read the thread, Cascarrabias?

Yeah, and they are all the same. They all grip abut the same issue, why skills sux and how we can make them better by concepts of unimaginable proportions that sound great when dealing the a GM 5 to 10 players but in an MMO environment where there are 100s or 1000s or more??

Your suggestion, as valid as it may be in a PnP session with one GM that you see once a week to play for an hour or two, will not work for an environment thats open 24/7, 365 days a year and with the players out sizing the staff 100/1 to 1000/1. No, that's not going to work, no matter how much you trim or add on to it, it will never work. There is just not enough man power, you would have to hire a dedicated staff, and pay them. Which is kinda hard to do with a F2P game that has no in coming revenue, unless you find yourself a Billionaire wanting to through some philanthropy money in. A GM in any small session only has to deal with a few players maybe one or two hours a week and what ever the out come, that's usually in favor of the player, the extra work that it takes to hold the session is minimal. This is not WoW, but imagine if the only way you could gain XP was though the Admin. Lets see there are aprox 12 mil subscriptions, if your concept was the case you'd need 1.2 mil people at blizzard just to stay at the maximum 10:1 ratio. I doubt all that revenue will let them hire 1% of that number. And the same concept applies here, though the numbers are way smaller, the staff doesn't get paid to do this, so you think there's any chance that the staff has the numbers to even be at a 100:1 ratio.

And your suggestion like that of everyone else, miss the concept of the problem by applying bandaids to the cancer. You got to cut it out if you don't like the aspects or you got to live with it as what it is. This is a Game, masking it with the words Role Play does not change the beast. And only makes fools out of you and every other person that comes for the Role Play. You got to get rid of the levels a maybe the skills themselves, then you can have a sole role play environment. Good luck with the attempts at trying to make a game not a game, yeah that's going to work, and then even get even luckier trying to keep those that come to play the game that you made not into a game from playing... the game? wait, what? now I'm confused, are you happy?!

[Cascarrabias]

You just called Illarion a MMO.

Yeah, a Massive Multiplayer Online.. Role Playing GAME.. Are we not on the same page or did I skip ahead?

And if you missed it, I underlined the catch-22 for you and everyone else that's having a hard time grasping the issue.

If you want this to be an MMORP(massive multiplayer online role play) only then you got to cut off all the gaming concepts, which include the levels and probably the skills themselves. Any less than that and everyone will be in a continuous argument over the same BS.

[Ezor Edwickton]

Good luck with the attempts at trying to make a game not a game, yeah that's going to work, and then even get even luckier trying to keep those that come to play the game that you made not into a game from playing... the game? wait, what? now I'm confused, are you happy?!

I'm a little confused to Cascarrabias. Are you bashing the game? Do you not like it? I don't think that is the case or you wouldn't still be here.

[Cascarrabias]

I'm a little confused to Cascarrabias. Are you bashing the game? Do you not like it? I don't think that is the case or you wouldn't still be here.

I'm not bashing anything, what I am attempting to do, with unfortunately futile results, is show you all the limits of your argument. You are never going to resolve this issue the way you're going, you aren't the first group to come up with this conundrum and you certainly won't be the last. But I was hoping to at least show you the error of your ways, oh well, ce la vie.

[Grokk]

Did you even read the thread, Cascarrabias?

Yeah, and they are all the same.

No, they aren't.

They all grip abut the same issue, why skills sux and how we can make them better by concepts of unimaginable proportions that sound great when dealing the a GM 5 to 10 players but in an MMO environment where there are 100s or 1000s or more??

No, they don't.

Your suggestion, as valid as it may be in a PnP session with one GM that you see once a week to play for an hour or two, will not work for an environment thats open 24/7, 365 days a year and with the players out sizing the staff 100/1 to 1000/1.

The players do not, and will not, outnumber the staff by 100 to 1, and absolutely not by 1000 to 1.

tl:dr - Some rubbish about WoW or something?

This thread quickly turned away from any discussion about GMs awarding skill points, but I'm guessing that you did not read past the first page.

Never, throughout this entire thread, did I suggest a complete removal of the skill system, with the only skill gain coming from GMs. I am fairly certain that no one else suggested it either. Your entire rant is based off of that false assumption. It was you who raised the idea of a system-less Illarion, and you who then argued against it. I don't think that there is anyone in this thread who holds the position that you are trying to attack.

And Illarion is not 'massively multiplayer'. If you think it is, then yes, you certainly skipped ahead. Please slow down, and reread over the pages that you missed.

[Ezor Edwickton]

I'm a little confused to Cascarrabias. Are you bashing the game? Do you not like it? I don't think that is the case or you wouldn't still be here.

I'm not bashing anything, what I am attempting to do, with unfortunately futile results, is show you all the limits of your argument. You are never going to resolve this issue the way you're going, you aren't the first group to come up with this conundrum and you certainly won't be the last. But I was hoping to at least show you the error of your ways, oh well, ce la vie.

I have to agree with Grokk and say that I don't think me and you, or you and him are talking about the same things.

[Uglug]

Man am I sorry I started this post. The petty bickering is unproductive and ridiculous.
Grow up people.
As far as my original post is concerned, I have received all the answers I need. This can be locked now.

[Kristine]

I understand what Cascarrabias is trying to say.

The Illarion is not just an Role Playing platform, it is also the GAME...
What you are trying to improve is game element, but you won't solve the problem you're trying to solve this way...

[Damien]

Illarion is or was) trying to do the following:

1. being a game platform AND a roleplaying platform at the same time, but supporting the rp with the engine
2. integrate new players into the community even when they have never RPed before

Because of the roleplay focus, skills don't have numbers on them and there are no "levels" to achieve. It's hard to support a RPed game atmosphere if your system kinda calls for people discussing their numbers.

Illarion is defined as MMORPG (or at least it was) and not as an MMO, since Roleplaying is usually enforced. That is what makes an RPG, in this case, not the type of platform used (and a chat platform, in my view, is much less fun.) As far as i heard, the game will be supervised much better after the actually ongoing update is finished. Right now, they have all focus on development.
But illarion's RP can be, let's say,"action-supported" by the engine. And an engine can always be abused somewhere. That way, people who powergame too much end up driving people out of the game who don't spend that much time on powergaming their skills and instead prefer sitting around a campfire telling tales. Of course it's kinda hard trying to tell a tale or listen to one when you get insulted, provoked, raped, robbed, challenged to a duel or the campfire wildfires when you're in the middle of it...

And that problem won't be solved with a simple game update. But the game update will bring back many old players as well as new ones in, and with more players, there is more possibility to RP. With careful administration and ingame moderation - supporting RP this way and getting a friendlier tone back ingame - the problem will be solved in the long run.
And the community managers as well as some friendly events will work wonders if those cards are played right, i bet.

[Nalzaxx]

More carrot less stick.

Don't focus on punishing those who don't roleplay.
Focus on rewarding those who do.

[Djironnyma]

I agree with Nalzaxx, you cant force someone to be a "better" roleplayer. Maybe it would be help if there would be more reward from the Staff/GMs for good roleplaying. But we should not forget that good roleplay is already supported, special in quests.

Anyway aside of quests and GMs - the most important part of supporting RP come from everyone of us. I really know how hard it is to roleplay sometimes with newbies or "bad" roleplayers, but we as players are the only ones who can teach them roleplay (GMS cant be everytime everywhere - thankfully). And to be serious, the social networks our chars get while roleplaying is mostly a much more powerful reward as any skill

[Semirama]

My 2 cents.

I think there is a fair amount of dishonesty going on here, when people speak that the game is all about RP, and beautiful emotes combined with clever socializing - is what matters more then skills. The focus of the game is not only RP, and skills seem to dominate it anyway.
The primary shining example is the monopoly on magic. I have never seen a game where a new character could not start out a mage.
You create a character, pick the battlemage package, and come into the game to find out you cannot cast a single spell. Not one!
So you have to be at mercy of the mages currently existing, who got their spells before the teaching system was implemented.
If RP was the main focus, then everyone with imagination would have equal opportunity. Skill is what produces inequality, which is why it stands like a door between a player and their ability to play out a character concept.

Forget powerful mages, forget being the best, you can't even start out with a specialty of a few spells. You are forced, upon char creation, to start out a bumbling fool, a "student", and every mage will first send you to go explore the island. But nobody needs a little skill-less noob.

This doesn't just go for magic, but druidry as well. Less for fighting, because you could technically just pick up a stick and go. But again, until you have the skills, you're nobody, you will run in other people's circles. If Illarion staff plans to bring a bigger playerbase into the game, they will have to realize that they need to abolish the notion of seniority, i.e. "This person has all the runes and magic items, because they made their character in 2002." Time only moves forward.

Sure, social networks are fun - when you are the man everyone wants to hang out with, because you got skills which are highly in demand. Right now - it's the older players, the "elite". To the point where a member of the elite group can gather up four people, and say "let's go, my ducklings", and they will obey, because they want to have the magic rune passed down to them. No matter if you play a priestess or a warrior, with a sophisticated inner world. You are now a duckling, because the "popular man with skills" said so.

What can you say to that?

[Flux]

.. Every mage started out with no skills? That's the essence of being a mage? You can't say as an argument that only characters with skill learn magic, because you can't GAIN skill if you don't have runes. Every mage was a newbie once who noone would ever consider teaching runes to, but there's a massive correlation between mage characters whose POs continue to play them purely in an RP way consistently and often and chars that eventually gain runes. Mage students who complain that they'll never get runes on their secondary char that they log in on once ever blue moon or quit playing the char after the week never get taught.

The teaching system is very imperfect currently, but it will be fixed in VBU. In the mean time, get used to the fact that it's not easy to gain magic and it requires a bit of dedication and for you to actually really, really want it, to the extent that you're willing to log in every day and play a defenseless, useless char. I can tell you from experience illa's much more fun when you're playing a char who has real aspirations, is highly vulnerable and spends 100% of ingame time roleplaying; no skilling (no point).

[Djironnyma]

As Flux already say it is known that the current magic system -specially the way of teaching&learning- doesn't not like it once was planed. This will change with the VBU (Very Big Update, planed sometime 2011). In the Moment you cant do anythink but life with this system.

Anyway, even if it will be more easy to learn magic with the VBU, you will not start with runes & spells. Illarion isn't suppose to be a game where you start as a experience character. You start as a nobody - no matter which class you play. If you train your character from the really beginning you will love him more and longer as a character who already has any basics. With a already experience character you will get faster bored and it is more easy for you to play just for you alone, but that isn't wanted - illarion is for roleplay between different players

[Arvemor]

Yes, lets talk about the VBU! Is there anything new to get excited about!?

[Felbion Lijawyn]

Semirama,

first of all only two of the mages that got their runes "without having to be taught" with the beginning of the magic system are still around. Those got the runes because they had shown their dedication to playing a mage by constantly being around when there were no runes at all. They had been playing "skillless useless people" as you call them for months, some years and therefor were chosen to become the first generation of teachers. Every mage you see ig nowadays except those two had to get a teacher and go through the process of learning themselves. And it was WAY harder to get a teacher like two years ago. Nowadays you just have to create a decent char that fits the general image ppl have of a mage and isn't completely rediculous and maybe wait for two weeks up to a month before you'll be able to start learning. The system we have isn't perfect, true, but it's starting to work better and better, even if it's a slow improvement. Also, like Flux and Djironnyma said, it's quite obvious to everyone who follows the updates and posts on information about the VBU that there will be major changes to the current teaching system.

This doesn't just go for magic, but druidry as well. Less for fighting, because you could technically just pick up a stick and go. But again, until you have the skills, you're nobody, you will run in other people's circles. If Illarion staff plans to bring a bigger playerbase into the game, they will have to realize that they need to abolish the notion of seniority, i.e. "This person has all the runes and magic items, because they made their character in 2002." Time only moves forward.

That is nonsense. It takes a fairly active, dedicated person (talking 1 - 2 skill caps a day) about this long to get skills that would be considered very good:

Fighter: 2 months (you'll be able to get ~80% skill in parry, dodge and one weapon type of choice in that time easily.)
Crafter: 1 - 2 months (again about 80%. Of course this varies with the respective craft you picked to master. Stuff like lumberjacking, mining etc. will be a lot faster to skill up than e.g. goldsmithing)
Druid: 2 - 3 months (to be good with herbology and druidism)
Mage: 3 - 4 months (to be good enough in all of the five magic skills to teach without a teaching room + get a teacher)

In the 5 - 6 years I've been playing illarion, I've had a druid, three fighters, a carpenter, a smith, a tailor, a cook/farmer and three mages. All of those (except one mage who I didn't enjoy rping after about one month and therefor deleted and the mage I'm currently playing) were decently skilled and had considerable "connections" with the society ig.

What I'm trying to say is that, ig, sucess isn't restricted for old charakters. You can accomplish pretty much anything with your charakter ig if you interact with ppl in a smart way and think ahead a bit. I'm not saying you could be ruler of Gobaith in two weeks, but it's certainly not hard to gain a good amount of influence in the ig-comunity we have.

Edit: After correcting two mistakes I found several more. If you pick on those, Flux, I shall slap you with a fish 'cause I gotta go and kinda wrote this in a hurry

[Kevin Lightdot]

I'm not saying you could be ruler of Gobaith in two weeks.

I'll take that as a challange.

[Flux]

Step 1. Make the character 1 week before the elections.
Step 2. Name your character Somebody Rothman.
Step 3. Give Matt your password and ask him to pg your char to max in half a week.
Step 4. Run in the Bane election. Promise reform.
Step 5. Organise a fighting tournament.
Step 6. Reform the guard including mage support.
Step 7. Ally with the temple.
Step 8. Conveniently take possession of Briar, Nordmark and Zzyathis.
Step 9. Invade Varshikar.
Step 10. Invade Vanima.
Step 11. Invade Grey Rose.
Step 12. Invade Silverbrand.
Step 12.a. Get banned.
Step 12.b. Get unbanned.
Step 13. Ally with the Academy.
Step 14. Attack the Bearers.

You might be able to squeese that into a fortnight .

[Rincewind]

Step 15. Orcs take over the world.

[Flux]

Oh yeah, I must've forgotten orcs. Probably because they seemed like such a huge threat.

[Llama]

As Flux already say it is known that the current magic system -specially the way of teaching&learning- doesn't not like it once was planed. This will change after the VBU (Very Big Update, planed sometime 21XX). In the Moment you cant do anythink but life with this system.

Made two changes in bold/underline.