Dyluck wrote:The answer to all your questions is basically Yes, Kasume.
Lyrenzia Foundation: Judicial Trial #1
Moderator: Gamemasters
It's the exact same thing that you did when you decided by yourself that Grant Herion was guilty of attacking you and so you delivered your own "justice" by attacking him back.
You are this "king" as much as everyone else or Lyrenzia is.
This is known as Anarchy. This is the problem.
However, all eligible citizens are allowed to vote representitives into the Lyrenzia Foundation. Within the Foundation itself is far from a monarchy or a tyranny. All elgibile people are representible.
You are this "king" as much as everyone else or Lyrenzia is.
This is known as Anarchy. This is the problem.
However, all eligible citizens are allowed to vote representitives into the Lyrenzia Foundation. Within the Foundation itself is far from a monarchy or a tyranny. All elgibile people are representible.
Last edited by Dyluck on Fri May 02, 2003 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
You take yourself too much "Rights" Lyrenzia. This cant go on this Way.
Your "Exile" is a mere excuse for a Killing Spree!
Punish your Members as hard as you wish, but leave the univloved Citizens alone.
I cant belive what i read in your Proclamaitions, giving everybody the Right to kill someone, just because you labeled him as an Exiler!
Rethink your Position Lyrenzia, you may split Trolls Bane into two opposing Parts.
Act amog yourselves as you wish, but respect the Rights of those who are not with you.
Darlok
Your "Exile" is a mere excuse for a Killing Spree!
Punish your Members as hard as you wish, but leave the univloved Citizens alone.
I cant belive what i read in your Proclamaitions, giving everybody the Right to kill someone, just because you labeled him as an Exiler!
Rethink your Position Lyrenzia, you may split Trolls Bane into two opposing Parts.
Act amog yourselves as you wish, but respect the Rights of those who are not with you.
Darlok
Funny how you say that after you did the same to the hobbits not long ago because YOU declared them to be criminals.
Did you not give the "right" for anyone to attack those hobbits?
I find it a mystery how a man who did all this and said he only follows his own laws of the battlefield would come talk about "rights".
Of course, you can guess the difference between how many people supported the worth your label of who is criminal compared to how many people supports the worth of our labels.
Did you not give the "right" for anyone to attack those hobbits?
I find it a mystery how a man who did all this and said he only follows his own laws of the battlefield would come talk about "rights".
You must have hit your head, if you think that we will let those who kill, steal, and towncast go unpunished. People have always enforced law as individuals, and now we do it as a large group and organized.Darlok wrote:To the Citizens of Trolls Bane!
I , Darlok, hereby declare that i consider myself in stand of war with the Halfings named:
Kirtar Toadfoot
Crosis
Nilo
Hermie
Bumbol Woodstock
Lenti (Elfish Traitor)
I will attack them everytime i see them on the Streets of Trolls Bane, without further warnings.
This also applies for the Persons allied to me in this Battle.
This fight last as long, as these Criminals walk in these Streets, have left the Island or have left the Realms of Living.
Everybody who allies with them will also be considered as a potential threat and therefore attacked unter all circumstances.
I welcome everybody who joins my side to get rid of these Halfing-Criminals and thier agressive Plans.
These are my Words and so it will happen.
Darlok
Of course, you can guess the difference between how many people supported the worth your label of who is criminal compared to how many people supports the worth of our labels.
With my War, i only stated my Position, and my Sights.
I even gave everybody the Choise to be either in this War or only a Withness of the Events.
Of course these Choise was not for everybody, because at least some need to be in a War to call it War.
But i never intended to attack someone who is not involved me my actions at all.
Not like Lyrenzia, which now claims to have the juristical Power above us all.
Even me? But i never gave you the Rights to jugde above me. So you cant put me in Prision or send me to an Exile, which is just an excuse to attempt to harm or kill me.
Lyrenzia, do with you Members as you please, but leave us, who are clear in Mind, and not Members alone!
Darlok
I even gave everybody the Choise to be either in this War or only a Withness of the Events.
Of course these Choise was not for everybody, because at least some need to be in a War to call it War.
But i never intended to attack someone who is not involved me my actions at all.
Not like Lyrenzia, which now claims to have the juristical Power above us all.
Even me? But i never gave you the Rights to jugde above me. So you cant put me in Prision or send me to an Exile, which is just an excuse to attempt to harm or kill me.
Lyrenzia, do with you Members as you please, but leave us, who are clear in Mind, and not Members alone!
Darlok
@Kasume:
People decide other people's guilt and punish them by themselves while the Lyrenzia does it through a roster of respectable, which can also be added to with publicly represented representitives, yet you consider the latter taking over the town?
You consider it taking over the town because all labeled criminals will be punished while you punish only who you think is criminal with no trial or declaration?
You consider it taking over the town, just because a group of people do a more organized and successful job of the same things that each person does individually?
Never forget that outside of Lyrenzia, you are living in an anarchy.
@Darlok:
Funny, I don't recall these people giving you the rights to attack or exile the hobbits? Who gave you the right to judge they are criminals?
Kirtar Toadfoot
Crosis
Nilo
Hermie
Bumbol Woodstock
Lenti (Elfish Traitor)
You welcomed anyone to attack those that you labeled. Lyrenzia has done the same.
People decide other people's guilt and punish them by themselves while the Lyrenzia does it through a roster of respectable, which can also be added to with publicly represented representitives, yet you consider the latter taking over the town?
You consider it taking over the town because all labeled criminals will be punished while you punish only who you think is criminal with no trial or declaration?
You consider it taking over the town, just because a group of people do a more organized and successful job of the same things that each person does individually?
Never forget that outside of Lyrenzia, you are living in an anarchy.
@Darlok:
Funny, I don't recall these people giving you the rights to attack or exile the hobbits? Who gave you the right to judge they are criminals?
Kirtar Toadfoot
Crosis
Nilo
Hermie
Bumbol Woodstock
Lenti (Elfish Traitor)
You welcomed anyone to attack those that you labeled. Lyrenzia has done the same.
Dyluck,
your Ignorance wont bring you anywhere.
Dont even try to compare my Actions with the Powerabuse of Lyrenzia.
In a War, everybody who attacks you or an Ally of you "gives" you the right to attack them back.
All named people on that list where engaged in fights.
And now stop this useless and brainless comparing of apples and cherries.
I prefer the Anarchy, instead of the Oppression through Lyrenzia!
Darlok
your Ignorance wont bring you anywhere.
Dont even try to compare my Actions with the Powerabuse of Lyrenzia.
In a War, everybody who attacks you or an Ally of you "gives" you the right to attack them back.
All named people on that list where engaged in fights.
And now stop this useless and brainless comparing of apples and cherries.
I prefer the Anarchy, instead of the Oppression through Lyrenzia!
Darlok
So this is Lyrenzia's sight.Darlok wrote:With my War, i only stated my Position, and my Sights.
Who said eveyone must fight for Lyrenzia if they don't want to?Darlok wrote: I even gave everybody the Choise to be either in this War or only a Withness of the Events.
Those labeled criminals don't have to choice whether to be punished, because criminals need to be punished for there to be justice.Darlok wrote: Of course these Choise was not for everybody, because at least some need to be in a War to call it War.
You allow anyone to attack your enemies in this war. We allow anyone to attack those labled criminal. No difference. We don't intend to attack someone who's not criminal.Darlok wrote: But i never intended to attack someone who is not involved me my actions at all.
Not like Lyrenzia, which now claims to have the juristical Power above us all.
The hobbits never gave you the right to judge them. That didn't stop you from exiling them. Neither will it stop us from punishing those we judge to be criminal.Darlok wrote: But i never gave you the Rights to jugde above me. So you cant put me in Prision or send me to an Exile, which is just an excuse to attempt to harm or kill me.
You think you can give yourself the right to attack someone by your own judgement and call it war, but Lyrenzia can't punish those it judges to be criminal? Perhaps you should think about the meaning of the word Anarchy. Everyone in an anarchy are opressors. Now you're just angry because someone has a bigger sword than you.
I have not the Time or the Nerve to discuss every word i wrote with you Dyluck. This little Hobby of your old and foolish Mind, i dont share with you.
So Lyrenzia is an Oppressor with a bigger Sword than mine? So i was right. But this doesnt bother me realy.
Lyrenzia, i accept it a a supirior Power above all Member-Guilds, but as nothing more.
Stay in your Borders Lyrenzia, and you can flourish and expand in any direction you want, as long as nobody is forced to obey you!
If someone simply says "No!" to you, resepct this, dont play Jugde and Executioner in one Person.
Darlok
P.S.: I respect, that an old man needs some sleep, Dyluck, so i wont bother your old mind any further and wont longer write on this sheet of paper. Have a good nights sleep, Judge Dyluck.
So Lyrenzia is an Oppressor with a bigger Sword than mine? So i was right. But this doesnt bother me realy.
Lyrenzia, i accept it a a supirior Power above all Member-Guilds, but as nothing more.
Stay in your Borders Lyrenzia, and you can flourish and expand in any direction you want, as long as nobody is forced to obey you!
If someone simply says "No!" to you, resepct this, dont play Jugde and Executioner in one Person.
Darlok
P.S.: I respect, that an old man needs some sleep, Dyluck, so i wont bother your old mind any further and wont longer write on this sheet of paper. Have a good nights sleep, Judge Dyluck.
Go ahead and leave Darok. In addition to time and nerve, you also don't have any argument. It's obvious that you have no argument that justifies your actions more than ours. You just try to justify the same actions by calling your "war".
The only thing you have said here is "Don't do the same thing that everyone else already does as in individual because I'm afraid that a group can enforce laws on me more effectively than a single person"
All you do is tell Lyrenzia to don't do something that you do yourself, and so does anyone else.
Everyday, these kinds of acts occur: A single person punishes a criminal who kills his friend and makes judgement through a single view.
Yet you have a problem with a large group who punishes a criminal who kills anybody and makes judgement through a balanced council.
Obivously, the second method will bring more trouble for criminals, and you can be sure that it will be trouble for you if you break the law.
The only thing you have said here is "Don't do the same thing that everyone else already does as in individual because I'm afraid that a group can enforce laws on me more effectively than a single person"
All you do is tell Lyrenzia to don't do something that you do yourself, and so does anyone else.
Everyday, these kinds of acts occur: A single person punishes a criminal who kills his friend and makes judgement through a single view.
Yet you have a problem with a large group who punishes a criminal who kills anybody and makes judgement through a balanced council.
Obivously, the second method will bring more trouble for criminals, and you can be sure that it will be trouble for you if you break the law.
So it is right for a group of people to just take power when ever they feel like it? I don't see that as a good thing.
And I don't understand what gives YOU the power to put people in banned from the town or prisoned! I would like to know who over rules me better than just any old one that feels like it. From what I see I see more people against this then with it. Maybe if we actually voted for a leader? Voted for our own laws. Instead of making just anyone make our laws.
((what's a anarchy?))
And I don't understand what gives YOU the power to put people in banned from the town or prisoned! I would like to know who over rules me better than just any old one that feels like it. From what I see I see more people against this then with it. Maybe if we actually voted for a leader? Voted for our own laws. Instead of making just anyone make our laws.
((what's a anarchy?))
Last edited by Kasume on Fri May 02, 2003 4:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
It's not a good thing.
That's the whole problem of Anarchy.
That's the problem that this town has had to live under since the beginning.
In the outside world, everybody is a tyrant, each supported by only themself. You are a tyrant. I am a tyrant. Lyrenzia is a Tyrant. That's the meaning of Anarchy.
Inside Lyrenzia however is a representitive Democracy, supported by the people who select its representitives.
That's the whole problem of Anarchy.
That's the problem that this town has had to live under since the beginning.
In the outside world, everybody is a tyrant, each supported by only themself. You are a tyrant. I am a tyrant. Lyrenzia is a Tyrant. That's the meaning of Anarchy.
Inside Lyrenzia however is a representitive Democracy, supported by the people who select its representitives.
I think you almost got the point. We rule just as much any other person. The only difference is Lyrenzia does a more organized job of it than the others.Kasume wrote:I would like to know who over rules me better than just any old one that feels like it.
You kill people who you judge to be criminals, but you have a problem with Lyrenzia exiling or imprisoning those we judge to be criminals?Kasume wrote:Let death come to me. I have killed Dunthor once and I will do it again without regret. If he does kill me than so be it. I am not afraid. Afraid isn't a word where I come from. It's life.
Voting public representitives is already possible.
Those already supporting Lyrenzia are the population of 8 guilds. Those against it can be counted in 2 hands and are mostly those in denial that what Lyrenzia does is only a magnified version of what each individual already does.
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Thereadore
- Posts: 112
- Joined: Tue Oct 22, 2002 7:50 pm
I find myssself in the ssstrange possition of sssuporting Dyluck on thisss. By their voting ssssyssstem, the foundation has taken away my only objection.
I can ssssee if sssomeone killsss sssomeone elssse, and neither go to the foundation for chargessss, then they would not have a right to interfere. But in thisss cassse one or both went to the foundation.
Thissss isss no different, Darlok, then you getting your friendsss to help you in your "war" with the hobbitsss.
You yourssself are guiltly of everything you accussse the foundation of. Thisss makesss you a hypocrite.
I can ssssee if sssomeone killsss sssomeone elssse, and neither go to the foundation for chargessss, then they would not have a right to interfere. But in thisss cassse one or both went to the foundation.
Thissss isss no different, Darlok, then you getting your friendsss to help you in your "war" with the hobbitsss.
You yourssself are guiltly of everything you accussse the foundation of. Thisss makesss you a hypocrite.
Yet you don't understand Dyluck. Having a enemy with someone is totally different from killing them for doing a crime. Dunthor did a crime against me so he deserves any actions from me against him. It's the Lyrenzia that pokes their nose into the buisness of everyday life.
You also state that you rule over the other people that have no control and it works under Anarchy. Yet within the group there is a democracy. If you believe in democracy shouldn't the people you over rule be treated as that?
You also state that you rule over the other people that have no control and it works under Anarchy. Yet within the group there is a democracy. If you believe in democracy shouldn't the people you over rule be treated as that?
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Caranthir the great
- Posts: 1476
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 9:06 pm
- Contact:
Dear Kasume, so what you are saying is, that it is alright for individual to lynch another individual, to take life of another person as he feels, but it is not alright to jail someone for short period of time for committing such hideous crime? A bit akward opinions isn't it? Lyrenzia is not handing out deathpenalties to one way or another, unlike you it seems.
I find your arguments amusing.
-Caranthir.
As much as you and everybody else, strange that you think murder as part of everyday life.It's the Lyrenzia that pokes their nose into the buisness of everyday life.
I find your arguments amusing.
-Caranthir.
I don't know what your talking about when you say that I poke my nose into other's buisness. I try to stay within my problems and not try to get others to be involved. Many things happen to me that you never would have guessed because I keep people out of my buisness. When someone posts something like this on our town boards this shows that they are putting it under our noses and yet they say we are poking our noses into it. You also left the entire second part of my statement out.
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Caranthir the great
- Posts: 1476
- Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2001 9:06 pm
- Contact:
Dear Kasume,
So what you mean is:
-someone commits a crime against you, and you go judge and execute that person by yourself without needing to prove his crime, despite the fact that you're totally biased since you're the victim, and you consider that 'Right'?
-someone commits a crime against another, and they find a respectable roster of people to give a trial and judge and execute with a neutral view, and you consider that 'Wrong'?
If someone commits a crime against me and I'm not strong enough to get revenge, it's ok to get my own biased friends to help me? Yet it's wrong to ask Lyrenzia to help me? It's ok to do justice for your friends, but it's wrong to do justice for an innocent victim?
You have a problem with people working together to punish criminals more efficiently? Maybe you do, but there a lot of victims out there who want to see their criminals get punished instead of having their crimes forgotten 3 months later. Maybe you think only the strong deserve justice, but others don't. Maybe you consider defending the weak to be "poking your nose" but people do it everyday to prevent murders, stealing, and casting in town. Do you have a problem with people helping each other or "poking their noses" to defend each other from criminals and preserve our basic standards of living?
I think if you stop and really slowly think about it, you might realize that Lyrenzia is only doing the same thing that everyone else has already been doing for ages, but just that you only noticed Lyrenzia because it's formalized and organized.
So what you mean is:
-someone commits a crime against you, and you go judge and execute that person by yourself without needing to prove his crime, despite the fact that you're totally biased since you're the victim, and you consider that 'Right'?
-someone commits a crime against another, and they find a respectable roster of people to give a trial and judge and execute with a neutral view, and you consider that 'Wrong'?
If someone commits a crime against me and I'm not strong enough to get revenge, it's ok to get my own biased friends to help me? Yet it's wrong to ask Lyrenzia to help me? It's ok to do justice for your friends, but it's wrong to do justice for an innocent victim?
You have a problem with people working together to punish criminals more efficiently? Maybe you do, but there a lot of victims out there who want to see their criminals get punished instead of having their crimes forgotten 3 months later. Maybe you think only the strong deserve justice, but others don't. Maybe you consider defending the weak to be "poking your nose" but people do it everyday to prevent murders, stealing, and casting in town. Do you have a problem with people helping each other or "poking their noses" to defend each other from criminals and preserve our basic standards of living?
I think if you stop and really slowly think about it, you might realize that Lyrenzia is only doing the same thing that everyone else has already been doing for ages, but just that you only noticed Lyrenzia because it's formalized and organized.
Do you even know what you're talking about? Have you heard about Lyrenzia's Public Voting System?Kasume wrote:You also state that you rule over the other people that have no control and it works under Anarchy. Yet within the group there is a democracy. If you believe in democracy shouldn't the people you over rule be treated as that?
I have recovered from my illness thanks to Algoran, Iorek and Srathrate and have been following the progress of the foundation closely. I must say that so far I am quite impressed with it's ventures. More involvement of the public, open trials that can be monitored and, so far, no sign of troops on the streets.
Dyluck, when you wrote :
In this case a persons friends will judge the victim and know if he's honourable enough to tell the truth. Granted there will be mistakes but I'm sure the foundation will not be entirely free of them.
One thing I do Admire the foundation for is the jailing, rather than vicious slaughter, of criminals. Keep up the good work. I'm still not totally convinced about the foudation but I am far less concerned than I was before.
Dyluck, when you wrote :
You missed the point that a victim of a crime has more proof than almost anybody else, other than the criminal. If one is the victim of the crime, judges it punishable by death and is able to carry out the sentence, then perhaps it is more right than someone who has to decide on the case based solely on the words of others.-someone commits a crime against you, and you go judge and execute that person by yourself without needing to prove his crime, despite the fact that you're totally biased since you're the victim, and you consider that 'Right'?
If someone commits a crime against me and I'm not strong enough to get revenge, it's ok to get my own biased friends to help me? Yet it's wrong to ask Lyrenzia to help me? It's ok to do justice for your friends, but it's wrong to do justice for an innocent victim?
In this case a persons friends will judge the victim and know if he's honourable enough to tell the truth. Granted there will be mistakes but I'm sure the foundation will not be entirely free of them.
One thing I do Admire the foundation for is the jailing, rather than vicious slaughter, of criminals. Keep up the good work. I'm still not totally convinced about the foudation but I am far less concerned than I was before.