Illarion - eine englischsprachige RP-Plattform?

[Elijah]

Didn't mean to come off as hateful, just stating what I thought. I think that most things ig should have a translation to co - exist with them (especially major announcements that could reflect on everyone).

But anyway, I don't think this discussion is what the thread was originally intended to be about. So let's leave it at that?

[Friedwulfa]

My opinion to bad german translations: For me its kind of cute to read such posts like the one from Cromwell. I really love it!!!! But the bigger point is - i respect the work behind the post from the bottom of my heart. It doesnt matters for me how good his grammar is. I just feel a bit respected by myself as german and it motivates to write more in english as honor for all the work.

[Retlak]

We would love to write German posts, but sadly our culture has no demand to learn the language and therefore we are poor in that skill, as Nalzaxx states, probably less that 10% of the english community know any form of german.

Obviously over in Germany or Austria, you have a lot of reasons to learn English and have developed that skill a lot.

Please excuse our arrogance.

-Matt

[Jupiter]

No one wants you to write it on your own. Like I have written: ask someone; or even pay someone IG-wise. Honestly, cooperation does only work if both sides at least try what they can.

[Juniper Onyx]

Personally,

We tried translating our Guild information into German, but our translator quit. I speak German too, but not well. I used online translators for everything else.

There are no other translators in our Guild, and no-one seems to care. We all RP in English, and only 'English' speakers seek our services. We RP in English, the German players seem to OOC hate us for what happened to PO Ingrimmisch and Malze.

Also, Our Guild changes so much everyday, I can't keep up with translations. There is highly 'technical' and 'financial' information that just can't be translated.

So I finally decided "Screw this!" I took off the German Translations. Silverbrand is German, The Order of the Grey Rose is German, The Northmark is definitely German. It's not fair, but it's the way it is. So, The Guild "Chamber of Commerce" is an "English" speaking Guild. If you don't like it, kiss my arse!

Dammit, I'm tired of this "German /English" crap. If we had "Spanish" Guilds, you all would be whining about that too. Screw German Translations for everything! I'm too old for this. Some things are meant to be only in native languages.

English is perfectly fine if the Guild is English RP. There are plenty of German Guilds that make no effort to translate to English. We're staying with English.

[Grim_banned]

No one wants you to write it on your own. Like I have written: ask someone; or even pay someone IG-wise. Honestly, cooperation does only work if both sides at least try what they can.

Like I said.. if you want to translate something, go ahead and do it, the leader of the guild will be more than happy to post your translation on their board, but dont try and force people to do something just because it doesnt look good to you.

[Juliana D'cheyne]

No one wants you to write it on your own. Like I have written: ask someone; or even pay someone IG-wise. Honestly, cooperation does only work if both sides at least try what they can.

IF someone posted a very poor English translation I would attempt to help. IF an all German guild had no English translation for it (of which there have been plenty in the past) I would ASSUME me butting in with my sole English post and request for English information from the guild wouldn't be welcomed. Typically in the past I have not joined those guilds though have read the information using what All English people except Cromwell uses ... google translator. http://translate.google.com/# ...which is how I read this thread btw. Having requested and been denied all proposals be in both languages I am a little confused why guilds in both seems to be an issue however, as I posted, there IS a compromise.

If anyone sent a translation of a guild I was in I would be HAPPY to post it. However since no one can speak the other language in the guild I probably wouldn't go out of my way to request the translation.

IF a guild disturbs you because there is no translation into the other language, offer to help.

Too late.. Grim posted.

edited to add a link discussing posting in forums before: http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=24094

[Juniper Onyx]

There will be no 'german' translations in our Guild. Don't even ask.

I've tried in the past, and it's gotten me nowhere. I've been playing this friggin game for four years, and it's the same crap. OOC ruins a game just like forums do.

English players are 'scared' to piss off Germans because most GM's are German and the Devs are German. While at the same time, IMO I see favoritism and Germans getting away with rule-breaks a lot!

Not anymore. It's why I quit the "Society". Same thing there.

I'm American, and this Guild is staying with English only. It's impossible to translate it. That's the way it will have to be.

[Friedwulfa]

Juniper, i always enjoyed our german/english-conversations.

[Sirith-Rym]

Okay, done messing around then...

On a more serious note, I will have to agree with how the Germans feel. It can be tough trying to translate and just because some of them do not translate for us does not mean we should be just as ungrateful... English speaking players have the same hardships as well depending on what game you are playing. I have played a game where the majority of the players spoke Japanese. That was rather difficult to work with... So I can relate with how they feel. Anyways, since the German players are showing their disapproval I will gladly make the rest of my posts with a translation.

I love you ALL! Now please stop fighting... :'(

And yes, my translations will be horrible... But I hope they help.

--------

Okay, getan rund messing dann ...

Auf einem ernsteren beachten Sie, dass ich mit, wie die Deutschen fühlen sich zu einigen. Es kann schwierig werden versuchen, zu übersetzen und nur weil einige von ihnen nicht für uns übersetzen, bedeutet nicht, sollten wir genauso undankbar ... Englisch sprechende Spieler haben die gleichen Entbehrungen wie auch je nachdem, was Sie spielen. Ich habe ein Spiel, wo die Mehrheit der Spieler sprechen Japanisch gespielt. Das war ziemlich schwierig, mit der Arbeit ... So kann ich mit, wie sie fühlen sich beziehen. Sowieso, da die deutschen Spieler zeigen ihre Missbilligung ich gerne machen, den Rest meines Posts mit einer Übersetzung. : D

Ich liebe dich ALLE! Nun bitte aufhören zu kämpfen ... :'(

Und ja, meine Übersetzungen schrecklich sein ... Aber ich hoffe, sie helfen.

[nathi]

Sorry, but the last dozen answers of this tread are fare away from the topic.

The starting topic was a discussion about the behaviour of the players language during the rp.
Example: If a group started a rp in german language, and a englisch speaking player occurs later, than many of the german players switch over to english, because its not fair to the newcoming player to continue in german language. But its fair to isolate one or more german players in the playing group those don't understand english well.
Yes, about 90% of the german players speaks english, many of them very well, but a another problem is the emoting in english. The quality and content of the emotions of the most german players goes down by switching into english. So often the fun of a german started rp will be reduced by switching into english. Silberbrand and Northmark was mentioned here, but be honest, how many players of these two guilds are active all the time. So the most of rp is held in Trolls Bane and Tol Vanima. OK in Varshikar too, but behind the walls (more or less a private rp there).
Another example from my side is, although a english player knows that I am usual playing in german, he/she continue with a perfect and complex english. This is very exhausting, and I use to much time often for translation of single verbs. Very heavy to enter into quests (f.x. demon quests).
So please accept if some of the german players are tired sometimes, and Rakust ... this have nothing to do with xenophobic
Is everyone interested to play togehter? Possible with a little more mutual respect

Nathali


...Og hvis I ikke stopper til at argumentere, så taler jeg kun på dansk ..
(btw. I like Illarion to practice my written german)

[Grim_banned]

Have you thought about players that are neither german nor english, but still managed to adapt themselves?

[nathi]

Grim, yes i thought about

[rakust dorenstkzul]

this have nothing to do with xenophobic

It has everything to do with xenophobia.

[Sirith-Rym]

I agree with nathi. But at the same time, even though English speakers are held accountable for this. So are German speakers. English may be held accountable for most of this, but fighting fire with fire will not solve these problems. If both languages begin shutting each other out there will be no resolution of the problem at hand. I notice the problem and I understand the reasons for your worry so I personally will work hard to keep my own RP and posts bilingual friendly. However, many others can easily say, "Well, they don't translate for us so why should we translate for them?" Sadly, it's easier for English users to do this because the game has become more English friendly then German friendly over the years. Whereas if a German player does this it will simply push them further away from the game and the roleplaying.

Even still, it will be hard for many to deal with translations because many people are simply just too lazy or inconsiderate.

I am going off topic again...

Back on topic!

The quests, however, should in all cases be bilingual anyways. Since it is a bilingual game. It means more work for the GMs, yes, but it is necessary if you wish to keep the game bilingual. The thing is, people play games for the quests. If there are no quests they can understand. Well, then, why play? Even if there are not any German speaking players present, it is important to keep it understandable for both languages throughout. Just because there aren't any present for the beginning, does not mean the cannot become involved during it.

Okay, I think that covers everything I wanted to say. I am not sure though... O.O

------

Ich stimme mit Nathi. Aber zur gleichen Zeit, obwohl englische Muttersprachler zur Rechenschaft gezogen werden für diese. So sind deutsche Redner. Englisch kann zur Rechenschaft gezogen für die meisten von diesen, sondern bekämpfen Feuer mit Feuer wird diese Probleme nicht lösen. Wenn beide Sprachen beginnen sich gegenseitig heruntergefahren wird es keine Lösung des Problems bei der Hand sein. Ich merke das Problem, und ich verstehe die Gründe für Ihre Sorgen, damit ich persönlich hart arbeiten wird, um meine eigenen Beiträge und RP zweisprachige freundliche halten. Allerdings können viele andere leicht zu sagen: "Nun, sie nicht für uns übersetzen also warum sollten wir für sie übersetzen?" Leider ist es einfacher für die Benutzer Englisch, dies zu tun, weil das Spiel geworden English freundlichen damaligen deutschen freundlich über die Jahre. Gründe, wenn ein deutscher Spieler bedeutet dies wird es einfach schiebt sie weiter weg von dem Spiel und das Rollenspiel.

Auch weiterhin wird es für viele schwer zu behandeln mit Übersetzungen, weil viele Menschen einfach nur zu faul oder rücksichtslos sind.

Ich gehe wieder off topic ...

Zurück zum Thema!

Die Quests, sollte jedoch in allen Fällen sowieso zweisprachig sein. Da es sich um eine zweisprachige Spiel. Es bedeutet mehr Arbeit für die GMs, ja, aber es ist notwendig, wenn Sie das Spiel zweisprachig zu halten wünschen. Die Sache ist, die Menschen spielen Spiele für die Quests. Wenn es keine Quests die sie verstehen können. Na, dann, warum spielen? Selbst wenn es nicht jeden deutschsprachigen Spieler anwesend sind, ist es wichtig, dass es verständlich für beide Sprachen in. Nur weil es keine Gegenwart für den Anfang, bedeutet nicht, die können nicht während es sich zu engagieren.

Okay, ich denke, dass deckt alles, was ich sagen wollte. Ich bin nicht sicher, ob ... O.O

[Kevin Lightdot]

Keeping quests under controle here AT ALL is quite the undertaking, doing every quest in two languages is just about impossible.

Imagine a quest mainly in English, an English gm calling the shots.
So he says some stuff in English, English people reply while what he said is being translated by a german, german people reply while English gm is already a step ahead, German replies have to be translated English gm 2 steps ahead, replied, translated to german again, ect.

There will always be reasons for your character not being able to join a quest that can't be justified by an IC reason, find a valid IC excuse or just don't speak about it, because there's nothing that can be done about it.

We all just have to learn how to deal with these barriers, and find a creative way around them.
Half the path has already been layed since it's acknowlaged ingame that there are two language variants, a guild could just as well be 'New language only" as Silverbrand is "Dwarf only".
There have always been groups and gangs that only spoke one language, why is it such a big problem now?


You can't expect the entire world to know German, and we're not expecting you all to know English.

[Mr. Cromwell]

If you make it mandatory that all quests are bilingual you're going to;

Kill all funny little quests that GM's do on their own initiative.
Make it so that only a minimal amount of quests are done because it becomes a work for the handling GM, when every local or obscure little thing needs to be catered for all.
Lead into a situation where it doesn't make any sense to have a non-german GM, because even if an english-speaking GM would have translation of the quest, then there's no chance for him to reasonably react to German players writing stuff. I mean, what the hell will be outcome of that? The english GM can NEVER act alone but always needs a translator with him.

You also have to understand the limitations of the staff. It certainly is a wrongheaded idea to enact policies which result eventually in 100% germanspeaking staff while attempting to cater to some diversity IG. Wroooong, and also why this won't happen.

Major quests, yeah sure. Otherwise I think it is better for the staff to use the time more productively.

[Sirith-Rym]

If the players learn to cooperate and maybe wait for the GM to finish the translation then maybe it would be done smoother. One of the biggest problems in all role playing games is that when a quest begins some people just don't know when to shut up. Maybe it's time to learn to be patient? If we want to accept our German friends into the quests we need to learn how to do this with two languages. Yes, I realize that's extremely difficult. I think it's quite obvious that it is. But as a gaming community we should learn to be more accepting of those that speak in another language instead of just leave them out of every important quest there is.

You say there is always going to be a reason for someone not to be able to be in a quest that is not an IC reason. I agree. But that reason shouldn't be because one person speaks a different language. That is just alienating. It is possible to make quests bilingual friendly. It will just take time, effort, and the support of the entire gaming community.

---------

Wenn die Spieler lernen, zu kooperieren und vielleicht für die GM warten, bis die Übersetzung dann auf Fertig Vielleicht wäre es glatter getan werden. Eines der größten Probleme in allen Rollenspielen ist, dass wenn eine Quest beginnt einige Leute wissen einfach nicht, wenn die Klappe zu halten. Vielleicht ist es Zeit zu lernen, geduldig zu sein? Wenn wir wollen unseren deutschen Freunden in die Quests müssen wir lernen, wie man dies mit zwei Sprachen nicht zu akzeptieren. Ja, ich merke, dass ist extrem schwierig. Ich denke, es ist ziemlich offensichtlich, dass es ist. Aber als Gaming-Community, wir sollten lernen, mehr Akzeptanz für jene, die in einer anderen Sprache statt nur verlassen, sie aus allen wichtigen Quest gibt es zu sprechen.

Sie sagen, es gibt immer einen Grund für jemanden nicht in der Lage sein, eine Quest, die nicht eine IC Grund sein. Ich bin damit einverstanden. Aber aus diesem Grund sollte nicht sein, weil eine Person eine andere Sprache spricht. Das ist nur befremdlich. Es ist möglich, Quests zweisprachige freundlich. Es wird einfach Zeit, Mühe und der Unterstützung der gesamten Gaming-Community.

[Sirith-Rym]

If you make it mandatory that all quests are bilingual you're going to;

Kill all funny little quests that GM's do on their own initiative.
Make it so that only a minimal amount of quests are done because it becomes a work for the handling GM, when every local or obscure little thing needs to be catered for all.
Lead into a situation where it doesn't make any sense to have a non-german GM, because even if an english-speaking GM would have translation of the quest, then there's no chance for him to reasonably react to German players writing stuff. I mean, what the hell will be outcome of that? The english GM can NEVER act alone but always needs a translator with him.

You also have to understand the limitations of the staff. It certainly is a wrongheaded idea to enact policies which result eventually in 100% germanspeaking staff while attempting to cater to some diversity IG. Wroooong, and also why this won't happen.

Major quests, yeah sure. Otherwise I think it is better for the staff to use the time more productively.

I am not saying the small quests. I am saying the quests that will effect everyone's characters.


The Major ones as you state.
-----

Ich sage nicht, die kleinen Gaeste. Ich sage, dass jeder die Quests Charaktere Effekt.

Der Major, wie Sie diejenigen Staat.

[nathi]

Sorry, I am confused now. Who asked for bilingual quests?

nathi

[Flux]

My major quest was like about.. 6-10 hours every week for a month or two? Just because I could be bothered to do that, doesn't mean there's going to be another gm bothered to sit and translate that.

[Rugh'toh]

Folks, why so complicated?

When I was the Chief we used to smash any orc who...

• was not willing to speak in proper orcish tongue,
• who did not follow commands,
• who was a flower orc.

What lesson do we learn from that?

Aye - Illarion would be a better world with orcs only

Hurrrrr

[Sirith-Rym]

Okay, here is what I am thinking.

There is another game I play where the basic population is English speaking players, French speaking players, and Japanese speaking players. The GMs do the quests in English, yet no one has a problem understanding.

Why?

Because the players who are bilingual and listening are busy at work helping those that are not bilingual understand what is going on. Not only that, but when the character wishes to speak, the translator speaks for them. It's simple. Be nice. You know? Help out those that do not understand English.

-----

Okay, hier ist was ich denke.

Es ist ein anderes Spiel spiele ich, wenn die Grundgesamtheit ist Englisch sprechende Spieler, Französisch sprechenden Spieler und japanisch sprechende Spieler. Die GMs nicht die Quests in Anglish, aber niemand hat ein Problem zu verstehen.

Warum?

Weil die Spieler, die zweisprachig sind und hören bei der Arbeit helfen, diejenigen, die nicht zweisprachig sind, sind damit beschäftigt, zu verstehen, was los ist. Nicht nur das, aber wenn der Charakter Wünsche zu sprechen, spricht der Übersetzer für sie. Es ist ganz einfach. Seien Sie nett. Sie wissen? Helfen Sie denen, die nicht verstehen Englisch.

[Tjamun]

Wie kann man ein Quest zweisprachig führen? Das funktioniert einfach nicht, denn ein englischsprachiger GM kann nun mal kein Deutsch, weshalb er nicht auf Emotes und Gesprochenes in dieser Sprache reagieren kann. Das würde sehr chaotisch werden. Man könnte höchstens die RPG-Posts übersetzen, aber so viel hat ein deutschsprachiger Spieler, der das Englische nicht beherrscht, davon sowieso nicht, da er sich nicht einbringen kann. Ihr wollt Quests auf Deutsch? Dann werdet Quester und macht welche. Ihr wollt Übersetzungen? Schreibt sie; perfekt müssen sie nicht sein. Wenn euch was nicht passt, dann tut was dagegen, anstatt sich zu beschweren und etwas von anderen zu erwarten.

-------------

How can you have bilingual quests? It just doesn't work because an English-speaking GM doesn't speak German and therefore is unable to react to speech and emotes in that language. This would cause a lot of chaos. The only thing that can be done is translating the RPG posts, but a solely German-speaking player wouldn't benefit much from that simply because he/she can't participate in the quest anyway. You want quests in German? Then become a quest GM and make some. You want translations? Write them; they don't have to be perfect. Do something yourself instead of complaining and expecting others to do all the work.

We RP in English, the German players seem to OOC hate us for what happened to PO Ingrimmisch and Malze.

There we go with the generalizations again. So some players who are apparently unable to separate IC from OOC are angry at you and you just assume that German players in general hate you for that? Actually, most don’t care.

- Bewussteres ig-Ausspielen das man verschiedensprachig ist und gegebenenfalls die Illa-Festlandskarte einfach mal markieren wo "Neusprachler" leben und wo halt die "Altsprachler" leben.

Das würde die Möglichkeiten bei der Auswahl eines Charakterhintergrunds schmälern und ist zu diesem Zeitpunkt sowieso nicht mehr umsetzbar, denn mehrere Charaktere von beiden Sprachen kommen aus der gleichen Stadt oder Region. Es ist alles vermischt und rückgängig machen lässt sich das nicht, ohne an Charakterhintergründen herumzupfuschen.

- Regeländerungsvorschlag. Öffentliche Posts ((ooc wie ig)) müssen zweisprachig gehalten werden. Zumindest der Startpost und jede Ankündigung. Auch wenn das gerade für die Englischsprachigen etwas Arbeit sein könnte, machbar isses allemal wenn einem JEDER Spieler am Herzen liegt.

Nein, es ist nicht machbar, weil niemand das alles übersetzen wird. Eine solche Regel würde dann dazu führen, dass im Forum kaum noch gepostet wird. Die „englischsprachigen“ Spieler können es nicht selbst tun und die bilingualen, inklusive mir, wollen es nicht. Meine eigenen Vorschläge und RPG-Posts, die auch deutschsprachige Spieler angehen, würde ich grundsätzlich immer übersetzen und dasselbe gilt für Posts von einer Gilde, der mein Charakter angehört. Für jedermanns Beiträge würde ich das jedoch nicht tun, dann wäre ich nämlich nur noch am Übersetzen. Bevor hier jetzt schon wieder jemand Steine wirft – ihr müsst mir erst mal beweisen, dass ihr dazu bereit wäret, wenn ihr es könntet. Wie gesagt, es ist leicht, etwas von anderen zu fordern; es selbst zu tun ist eine andere Sache.

Und dass im Forum die englischen Forentitel vor den deutschen stehen habe ich auch NIE verstanden...

Wieso sollte es andersherum sein? Ist das nicht völlig egal?

[Sirith-Rym]

The starting topic was a discussion about the behaviour of the players language during the rp.
Example: If a group started a rp in german language, and a englisch speaking player occurs later, than many of the german players switch over to english, because its not fair to the newcoming player to continue in german language. But its fair to isolate one or more german players in the playing group those don't understand english well.

Not many English speaking folks know German... Especially not in America.

If you are asking people to learn German I doubt that is going to happen. There is only so much people can do...

Also, it is one thing to be able to plug things into a translator from a forum. But an entirely other thing to do so from the actual game. You can't copy and paste things into the translator from the game, and I don't think you can copy and paste them into the game.

-----

Nicht viele Leute wissen englischsprachigen deutschen ... Vor allem nicht in Amerika.

Wenn Sie sich fragen Leute, Deutsch zu lernen Ich bezweifle, dass passieren wird. Es gibt nur so viele Leute tun können ...

Außerdem ist es eine Sache, in der Lage sein, die Dinge in einen Übersetzer Stecker aus einem Forum. Aber eine ganz andere Sache, dies zu tun aus dem eigentlichen Spiel. Sie können nicht kopieren und einfügen Dinge in die Übersetzer aus dem Spiel, und ich denke nicht, können Sie kopieren und fügen Sie sie in das Spiel.

[Sirith-Rym]

How can you have bilingual quests? It just doesn't work because an English-speaking GM doesn't speak German and therefore is unable to react to speech and emotes in that language. This would cause a lot of chaos.

Refer to the post above yours. I did not necessarily mean the GMs. The players can translate as well, you know.

----

Wenden Sie sich an die Post über dir. Ich habe nicht unbedingt die GMs. Die Spieler können auch übersetzen, wissen Sie.

[Velisai]

I tried translating live on many occasions and it simply doesn't work. In a group of 3 chars including mine it is extremely difficult to keep up and after 20 minutes, I get a murderous headache. If the number of chars rises above 3 it is absolutely impossible.

[Flux]

Shift+insert pastes, but regardless, again, read my post.

You think it's reasonable to expect someone e.g. Zot to translate 50 hours of quest punctually when most events are done on a whim when there are enough people online?

[Sirith-Rym]

I am saying if someone happens to be at the quest at the time and needs a translation and someone there can translate for them they should.

Not a constant translation for a bunch of people who speak English and don't need it.


-----

Ich sage, wenn jemand kommt, um die Quest zu der Zeit und den Bedürfnissen einer Übersetzung und jemand kann es für sie sollten sie zu übersetzen.

Nicht eine konstante Übersetzung für ein paar Leute, die Englisch sprechen und brauchen es nicht.

[Retlak]

I would rather not translate my characters when I run a quest with my chars.

There is a certain atmosphere / reputation and image that can only be done in English due to my lack of german knowledge, If this gets translated by myself or someone who isn't pro, the wrong atmosphere may be created for Team German, which is very easy to happen.

-Matt