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Damien
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Post by Damien »

Hmh. To make what i meant up there more clear, i'll give some examples:

1. Take the neverwinter nights world editor thing.
2. Take some of those 2D-UO world editor things.
3. Even take a peek at this freaky Second Life thingy with its scriptability and item creation from simples.

With those editors it is possible to create maps, items like walls/trees/buildings, item functions/scripts, NPCs, and with that ->FULL CONTENT. In one editor window.
One can create a map, place the items on it, place doors and switches on it, open properties of items to fill in basic functions and even complex scripts.
The Content is directly viewable and checkable directly by those people making it. They see what they made, send the whole to one of the admins, they build it in or into a test place.
People can experiment, people can play around, people can see their results at work, plus these tools are mostly freely available.

In illarion, a quester person has to :
1. make the tile map
2. fill it with content of the fixed items type (trees,walls,stones,etc)
3. go through the item list and note down item IDs of items you want to have a scripted function, then note down the coordinates where you want these on the map
4. send the map to one of our map masters and wait a few months until it can be built in
5. log into your map and check the corner points to get the coordinates of your map in the world map
6. translate all "local" map positions you noted down in 3. into world coordinates (it's not actually hard, but can be annoying)
7. send that calculated data and item list along with a list of functions to some script master
8. do the same with NPCs and spawn points
9. have to wait some more until all scripts are properly tested ( to avoid crashes ) and built in
to get a functioning dungeon.
And in the end, listen to complaints of all the noobs who's groups died on the map because single players wanted to "scout" and ran directly through all spawn points, luring the monsters back to overrun their comrades, and instead of being backed up by the rest of the staff be flamed by them as well.
:twisted:

Logical effect : People get inactive.

If compensating for that effect by motivating people from the community by giving them toys to play around with so they can develop an interest to develop stuff for the game and to see their work in effect is not a possible way to go;
And if there is no easier / broader available way for fixed/automated ingame content creation;
Perhaps it would help a bit if the staff would support its active questers a bit better in public, at least as long until there is enough ingame content to keep players active from that alone.
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Llama
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Post by Llama »

Damien, perhaps you mistook illarion for a million+ player game with multiple servers, paid subscriptions and a lot of man-hours of extra effort.

I know, I make that mistake sometimes.

Now. perhaps integrating the map with the scripts may actually be a good idea. Maybe you should be allowed to say - right click 'attach script' to an item bla bla bla - like an automated GUI development interface. That would actually be cool. But fact is - all of that, requires a TON of effort.

And given that the communitydoesn't even want to do the 'easy stuff' - I don't see why we should waste our competant developers to produce a complicated 'easy-to-work-with' software - and then it isn't used by anyone.

I have no idea how long the simple-NPC language took to develop. It was a great help, I admit. But even when you have something so basic you could train a chimpanzee to do it in a week - we STILL DO NOT HAVE A BUNCH OF GOOD NPCS RUNNING AROUND.

So no Damien, I don't think the problem is that the interface and stuff is too hard and takes too much time. The problem seems to be that everyone wants to complain and suggest, but nobody wants to roll their sleeves up.
Flux
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Post by Flux »

Most of your 9 points can be rolled into one point that doesn't take much time at all, and you can get the world coord points when you're making the map in the first place to find the teleport points anyway. No need to get it uploaded, log in, find them and convert them to world, just do it when you make them, takes seconds.
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S'rrt
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Post by S'rrt »

Here's how I see the whole ultra-easy-NPC-creation.

Whenever this thread makes me want to give something back to the game that I absolutely love, it's not the tech that scares me, it's the designing of the NPCs and the reason for their existence. It would require some comprehensive reading to the background of the game to come up with some designs and maybe even stories for the NPCs. The developers of course have enough knowledge to throw something together whereas for players it requires some dedication.

In my opinion, if an NPC is worth doing, it's worth doing right, which means I wouldn't throw together a lame NPC just because someone's all-capsing on the forum that we need NPCs ASAP.
1d20
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Post by 1d20 »

No S'rrt, you have the wrong idea.

It's okay to have NPCs that have not much to do with the background story. Just there to add mood, ambiance.

An old beggar that asks you to get rid of a scorpion infestation in his wine cave for instance, would be great as a semi-advanced fighter quest.

Somewhere there's a cellar, put an NPC on the floor above, spawn scorpions in the cellar, user kills 10 scorpions, goes back to the NPC, NPC rewards with two bottles of antidote and 5 silvers.

See what I did there? Had nothing to do with the background story.
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Llama
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Post by Llama »

Just like in real life S'rrt, not everyone cares about politics and the like.

You don't have to create a 'son of a nobleman' who tells you about Salkmaerian sock-washing rituals - you can even do SIMPLER than what Karl suggested :

A guy who talks to you about his children and his dreams - is a very simple ambiant NPC which will make the game feel more alive - he doesn't even have to have any quest stuff.

A woman who asks you to bring her 10 cherries and gives you a cherry pie is another VERY VERY SIMPLE NPC for beginners - you can do that in less than an hour.

And being perfectally honest, I think having a number of small NPCs is far better (and more likely to happen) than having one NPC which speaks complicated stuff and gives an immensly complicated quest.
Grokk
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Post by Grokk »

Is there a list of general phrases that every NPC should have a response to somewhere?
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Estralis Seborian
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Post by Estralis Seborian »

There is a minimum template available. But you should add more, especially triggers about the quests and the enviroment / location.

Code: Select all

name="NAME"
sex=male --male/female
race=human --human, halfling, elf, dwarf, lizard, orc,...
position=0, 0, 0 --Location
direction=South --North/South/West/East
QuestID=0 --A developer will assign an ID 

--Template by Estralis Seborian

--Queststatus Overview

--Help

"Help"->inform ( [Game Help] This is NPC is the PROFESSION NAME. Keyphrases: Hello, quest, YOURTRIGGER1, YOURTRIGGER2. )
"Hilfe"->inform ( [Spielhilfe] Dieser NPC ist der BERUF NAME. Schlüsselwörter: Hallo, Quest, DEINTRIGGER1, DEINTRIGGER2. )

--General speech
 
"Hello","Greetings","Be greeted","Hail","Good day","Good morning","Good evening"->"ENGLISH1.","ENGLISH2.","ENGLISH3."
"Grüße","Gruß","Seid gegrüßt","Guten Tag","Guten Abend","Mahlzeit","Tach","Moin"->"GERMAN1.","GERMAN2.","GERMAN3."
"Hiho","Hallo","Hey","Greebas","Greebs",english->"ENGLISH1.","ENGLISH2.","ENGLISH3."
"Hiho","Hallo","Hey","Greebas","Greebs",german->"GERMAN1.","GERMAN2.","GERMAN3."
"Farewell","Good bye","Bye","Fare thy well"->"ENGLISH1.","ENGLISH2.","ENGLISH3."
"Tschüß","Tschüss","Wiedersehen","Gehabt euch wohl"->"GERMAN1.","GERMAN2.","GERMAN3."
"Ciao","Adieu","Au revoir",english->"ENGLISH1.","ENGLISH2.","ENGLISH3."
"Ciao","Adieu","Au revoir",german->"GERMAN1.","GERMAN2.","GERMAN3."
"How are you","How feel","How do you do"->"ENGLISH1.","ENGLISH2.","ENGLISH3."
"Wie geht","Wie fühlst","Wie ist es ergangen"->"GERMAN1.","GERMAN2.","GERMAN3."
"your name","who are you","who art thou"->"ENGLISH1.","ENGLISH2.","ENGLISH3."
"dein name","wer bist du","wer seid ihr","wie heißt"->"GERMAN1.","GERMAN2.","GERMAN3."

--Catching typical NPC phrases

"what sell","what buy","list wares","price of"->"ENGLISH1.","ENGLISH2.","ENGLISH3."
"was verkauf","was kauf","warenliste","preis von"->"GERMAN1.","GERMAN2.","GERMAN3."
"tell something"->"ENGLISH1.","ENGLISH2.","ENGLISH3."
"erzähl was","erzähl etwas"->"GERMAN1.","GERMAN2.","GERMAN3."

--Small talk: The talk here should focus on possible questions. Feel free to add more!

"PROFESSION"->"ENGLISH1.","ENGLISH2.","ENGLISH3."
"BERUF"->"GERMAN1.","GERMAN2.","GERMAN3."
"profession"->"ENGLISH1.","ENGLISH2.","ENGLISH3."
"beruf"->"GERMAN1.","GERMAN2.","GERMAN3."
"job",english->"ENGLISH1.","ENGLISH2.","ENGLISH3."
"job"->"GERMAN1.","GERMAN2.","GERMAN3."

--More small talk; add at least five triggers

"YOURTRIGGER1"->"ENGLISH1.","ENGLISH2.","ENGLISH3."
"YOURTRIGGER2"->"ENGLISH1.","ENGLISH2.","ENGLISH3."
"YOURTRIGGER3"->"ENGLISH1.","ENGLISH2.","ENGLISH3."
"YOURTRIGGER4"->"ENGLISH1.","ENGLISH2.","ENGLISH3."
"YOURTRIGGER5"->"ENGLISH1.","ENGLISH2.","ENGLISH3."

"DEINTRIGGER1"->"GERMAN1.","GERMAN2.","GERMAN3."
"DEINTRIGGER2"->"GERMAN1.","GERMAN2.","GERMAN3."
"DEINTRIGGER3"->"GERMAN1.","GERMAN2.","GERMAN3."
"DEINTRIGGER4"->"GERMAN1.","GERMAN2.","GERMAN3."
"DEINTRIGGER5"->"GERMAN1.","GERMAN2.","GERMAN3."

--Main land factions

"albar",english->"ENGLISH1.","ENGLISH2.","ENGLISH3."
"albar"->"GERMAN1.","GERMAN2.","GERMAN3."
"gynk","gync",english->"ENGLISH1.","ENGLISH2.","ENGLISH3."
"gync","gynk"->"GERMAN1.","GERMAN2.","GERMAN3."
"salkama",english->"ENGLISH1.","ENGLISH2.","ENGLISH3."
"salkama"->"GERMAN1.","GERMAN2.","GERMAN3."

--Gods; each NPC should react on AT LEAST one god, being a follower of said god

"GOD",english->"ENGLISH1.","ENGLISH2.","ENGLISH3."
"GOTT"->"GERMAN1.","GERMAN2.","GERMAN3."

--Quest stuff

--Easteregg (optional): Think about a funny, unrelated trigger with a surprising answer

"YOURTRIGGER"->"ENGLISH1.","ENGLISH2.","ENGLISH3."
"DEINTRIGGER"->"GERMAN1.","GERMAN2.","GERMAN3."

--Last catch: Think about keyphrases the player might say and that are not caught until here.

"Yes"->"ENGLISH1.","ENGLISH2.","ENGLISH3."
"Ja"->"GERMAN1.","GERMAN2.","GERMAN3."
"No"->"ENGLISH1.","ENGLISH2.","ENGLISH3."
"Nein"->"GERMAN1.","GERMAN2.","GERMAN3."

--Cycletext: Add as many random messages as possible

cycletext "GERMAN1.","ENGLISH1."
cycletext "GERMAN1.","ENGLISH1."
cycletext "GERMAN1.","ENGLISH1."
cycletext "GERMAN1.","ENGLISH1."
cycletext "GERMAN1.","ENGLISH1."
cycletext "GERMAN1.","ENGLISH1."
cycletext "GERMAN1.","ENGLISH1."
cycletext "GERMAN1.","ENGLISH1."
cycletext "GERMAN1.","ENGLISH1."
cycletext "GERMAN1.","ENGLISH1."
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Kranek
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Post by Kranek »

In diesem Zusammenhang eine Bitte an alle NPC-Scripter:
Verwendet bitte NICHT die Funktion mit dem Namen des Chars.
Folgende Situation ist bereits aufgetreten:
Char 1 der sich unter verdecktem Namen vorstellt weil er ein Taschendieb ist spricht mit einem NPC.
Dieser antwortet und schreit dann plötzlich im Satz den echten Namen des Chars in die Umgebung.

Nicht wirklich praktisch für den betroffenen PO. Im Grunde könnte man das Nutzen der Namen-Funktion sogar fast als OOC-Usage ansehen.

Danke für die Aufmerksamkeit ^^
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S'rrt
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Post by S'rrt »

Thanks for the template Estralis, I would not have known which scripts make the minimal NPC. All I basically need is your example and the Scripteditor Commands- page from the website. Just one question; what happens when I upload it? Should I upload it before leaving it for someone to review?
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Llama
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Post by Llama »

You can't actually upload the NPC.

The thingy on the website PARSES it into lua - it'll also check your syntax.

So you should

1. Write your NPC (keep the documentation open - or look for a few example NPCs - those help a lot)
2. Parse the NPC
3. Correct any errors
4. Bother one of the game helpers (not Nitram :P) and give them the .npc
5. Be ready for constructive critisim
6. Go to 1.
7. Eventually - it'll be ready, and they'll upload it and stuff.
Damien
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Post by Damien »

@Hadrian : I kinda know a bit how the illarion staff works and what it consists of and how it can be compared to a professional team, thanks for the lecture - but you're completely missing my point. The editor points are, as said above the whole, just an example.

I'm talking about motivating community people instead of scaring them away (and active ones into inactivity).

"Toys" like an freely available editor *, no matter how useful the output is in the end, might serve exactly that purpose. People who play around, find out that they can do pretty good stuff themselves, get motivated from that (seeing the results of their work, which is always a good positive motivation), might end up wanting to join and help officially, even with other stuff than maps.




* the tiny thing i threw in, which was an idea someone brought up on some illarion society meeting a few years ago and that kicked off that discussion
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Alli Zelos
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Post by Alli Zelos »

I thought I should say, for the sake of things...

@Hadrian: I would not compare the amount of people scripting NPCs to the amount of people that would create maps. Personally, I can't stand working with scripts... But I do LOVE working with graphics. It's more a matter of personal interest, than simplicity. I can't spend more than 10 minutes working on an NPC, but I can spend hours working on graphics (even if I'm no good at it... I do love learning. :P)

But yes... in a nutshell, while a simple map editor (I would not even mind using the current one, really) would be very nice, it's probably too complex to make (though I'm not qualified to say).
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