Everything about Illarion that fits nowhere else. / Alles über Illarion was inhaltlich in kein anderes Board passt.
not really, because unless i am mistaken mana only regenerates while ig. and upon filling your mana you would have to "channel"it in. so it would mean you have to stay ig with your mage. alot.Hadrian_Abela wrote:And what does this scroll do Mister Tanistan?
Also i dislike the "1 month's worth of mana' suggestion. I don't play my mage very often (or at all), so i can use him as a mage-factory ?
200-250 gems seemed a little high, and they would not be doing any enchanting without materials either, however they would still use mana.Mr. Cromwell wrote:Well, I actually have toyed with the idea that mages would get an "enchanter"-class, with ability to craft magical items (not by pulling essence or mana from their behinds, but rather by being a part of the economy: cut gems would be used for this) in return for weaker combat magic.
They would be able to create special enchantments for items, some useful, some not except for a niche, and would also be able to transmute magical properties of resources.
Transmuting "pure essence" into a different type of pure essence (fire to water, earth to air.. aso) at the cost of 20 cut gems, type depending on the target essence.
Creating level 1 magic gems from 200-250 cut gems of the same type.
Creating portal books to specific places (you need mana-ink/1s per bottle + 3 bluestones per book, plus you need to be present at the location itself)
Just for information:Aust wrote: I like Crommy's suggestion too. Arcane Crafters would really bring a new dimention to the game, and would suply an explanation of where all the magical gear comes from. It is my opinion that all mages should have the ability to create scrolls though, while Arcane Crafters should have monopoly on enchanting gear.
That depends entirely on the ammount of resources and time required to enchant gear =)Mr. Cromwell wrote: Just for information:
I never intended it to be so that Arcane Crafters would be responsible for making all magical gear or such. That would be so ridiculously overpowered in favour of mages that the mere suggestion is silly. In case you were thinking that.
There are other ways to ensure this, for example by implementing flawless/masterwork weapons, or similar.There's gotta be a suitable reward for craftsmen too at the end of the skill.
Nice ideas. I especially like the "find-eachother rings". These would really fill an important role ingame.The Arcane Crafting / Enchanting / Whatever would introduce stuff that is not in the game yet (scrying scrolls, custom teleport books, linked find-eachother rings, magic gem compression, pure essence transmutation, other-clever-and-useful-stuff-people-are-able-to-come-up-with...)
Well, no. You see.. that would either mean that the magical weapons become a little pointless (if the masterwork items are more powerful) OR that crafted items and more importantly craftsmen become nothing but middlemen in the whole ordeal, while mages who enchant items make the big bucks.Aust wrote: That depends entirely on the ammount of resources and time required to enchant gear =)
There are other ways to ensure this, for example by implementing flawless/masterwork weapons, or similar.
Then make the two kinds of weapons balanced, and allow masterwork weapons to be enchanted. In any case, this would not decrease the pay of the smiths.Mr. Cromwell wrote: Well, no. You see.. that would either mean that the magical weapons become a little pointless (if the masterwork items are more powerful) OR that crafted items and more importantly craftsmen become nothing but middlemen in the whole ordeal, while mages who enchant items make the big bucks.
There is no reason why the system would result in this, if Masterwork weapons are as rarely crafted as magical weapons are today, and the Masterwork items are of reasonable power.Hey, Hans the smith... I'd like to buy an excellent Serinjah.
Hey Dick the Mage, I'd like you to enchant the Serinjah.
Smiths don't loose massive ammount of endgame business if masterowrk weapons are included. Other than that, you're right of course. Everyone will get Masterwork Magical weapons in the end. Or at least magical weapons. The smiths would not suffer from this.Anyone who's observed the game notices that players have the tendency to get the best items, en masse. When there's something that is clearly better than others, everyone will use them and if there are externalities (such as smiths losing massive amounts of endgame business in this case) then it's too bad. Craftsmen need to own at crafting items, period.
Sure, that works too. It makes zero sense that smiths create magical gear though.I'd like to see craftsmen being rewarded by having the ability to craft the top magical items of their class (eg. they use magical resources during the manufacturing process itself to achieve the magical property). However, Arcane craftsmen could manipulate existing items and grant them slight magical powers, as well as to manipulate the magical essences and resources themselves. They would actually act as "arcane craftsmen" only when it comes to the paper-and-ink stuff creation, which is clearly their line of work. Otherwise they'd mainly manipulate things.
I don't think I have trouble grasping this concept, but I fail to see how smiths would lose any advantages, or lose an income, from the suggestion I propose. As long as masterwork weapons are as rare and powerful as magical ones, smiths would remain just as popular. Arcane Crafters might have a larger pool of customers to choose from, as not only Masterwork weapons could be enchanted, but this could be regulated by making the process of creating magical weapons longer.Mr. Cromwell wrote:I'll give an example with Car-industry.
Craftsmen are the Car manufacturer/assembler. They have the goal of making a certain type of car (item) for which they need an assortment of resources, semifinished goods and so on. For them, it's important that the resources have the qualities they are looking for that enable them to create 'the' kind of car that they are trying to make. Who or where or how the resources are made is not their prime concern. So when they want a really powerful car (sword), they put a V12 (pure-fire) engine on it. They don't in this case actually make the engine itself (pure fire), and for them it is not important how the V12 (pure-fire) came to be, as long as it achieves whatever they want to achieve ie. make a really powerful car (flaming sword). All they really need is the know-how of how to put the car (sword) successfully together.
Arcane Crafters are the subcontractors that make the car parts. They make the V12 engines of certain types (think magic gems) or use parts (pure essences, gems) to make car-parts that the customer is specifically looking for (transmuting pure essences). Not only that, but the owner of the company is also really into "Pimp my Ride" and has thus decided to branch out with another venture, that pimps out people's existing automobiles where the workers of his company can utilize their skills (magic) and experience (enchanting and enchantments) to do something else that is still related to cars (adding enchantments to already existing items, as opposed to "assembling" completely new ones).
There is a difference between theory and what the engine actually does. You hold metal, you fail at magic.Mr. Cromwell wrote:Unless I am completely mistaken, there are other things such as undead that the magic theory does not in fact adequately explain. It's a theory in the end.
1.) How does a mage implementing magic to a sword make the end result of the contradicting theory any different?
I never claimed that it would be a simple 'Oh, smiths are the only one who can use it.' To give only smiths that power would be idiotic. The carpentry system already uses ingots, this would not be much different.Mr. Cromwell wrote:2.) Buttsecksing smithing does not functioning carpentery make.
It does, actually. Smithing does everything. No one really needs cloth clothing. They just wear their armor all the time. So, instead lets just say 'Everyone, you can have magical weapons all the time now', and everyone will have a depot full of them. Atleast now you have to try a little bit to get one, not just go to a mage and ask.Mr. Cromwell wrote:3.) Because carpentering or tailoring are disadvantaged at this point, it is not a real argument against disadvantaging another craft which presumedly works.
What I suggest, is that if this goes into the game, everyone will have magic. You can start off by saying, 'Well, we will just make it heavily limited.', because as cool as that is, it doesn't take long at all to get huge amounts of gems. Then the answer would be to lower the amount of gems available to get, which once again comes back to hurt carpenters, smiths, goldsmiths, and possibly tailors if I recall.Mr. Cromwell wrote:4.) What you suggest is actually that: There's no class of mage enchanters. a.) But the smiths, who focus on making gear for people, suddenly do no longer make the best gear anymore but b.) the normal mages get the ability to that as a by-product of their magic skillz. Can't you see the injustice there?
Exactly. We agree here. Thats why what they should be able to do is very minor, teleport scrolls, pure elemental shifts, and minor improvements to weapons in a 'one enchantment per thing', that might increase damage slightly, or speed, or what have you. A -small- nudge. Not enough to count as a craft in and of itself.Mr. Cromwell wrote:5.) Too much power and influence for magic chars. There's plenty already, so really guys, there's no need to make mages the sole givers of magic weapons too. If that is implemented we might just as well change the game from "Illarion" from "Play a mage or you're wasting your time-rion".
I dont really see how this is strictly relevant to our discussion. Most people agree that smithing is too powerful compared to the other crafts, but that is mainly because of the fighting system. Additionally, fighters dont get GOOD gear from monsters. Trust me, my high end fighter has walked around for days trying to find a smith, just to get a decent sword.Vern Kron wrote:I firmly and totally disagree.
You claim that the 'end-work' of a smith would not be hurt. However, you are ignoring something. A large majority of the things smiths can make aren't used. Not to mention the fact that carpenters are, "Oh, look, what is that thing chained to that table holding a slicer and being whipped by the smiths?" You can claim that it is poor marketing, or what have you. But the basis of the entire crafting system seems to be smithing. Why smithing? Where does the money supposedly come from? The fighters. Where do fighters get their money? From the monsters. What else do they get from monsters? Swords, and shields, and armor.
We didnt suggest this system to save the smiths. It doesn't, but it doesnt harm crafters either. Besides, mages spend tons of money on gear, potions and possibly gems. I don't see how this is so different from what the other classes do.Now we have these things called potions. So then we go from, fighter gives money to smith, fighter gets sword. Fighter gives sword to mage and money. Gets back magical sword. To, fighter gives druid a horrid weapon and money, druid fixes it and passes money back to the npc for coin, fighter goes to the mage. What does the mage do with the money? Nothing. Or they spend it on gems. The money then goes to miners. And most miners are smiths. So the smiths still have all the money.
There are already magical swords. The paradox is already there, if it even is a paradox. IMO, its not. I like to think metal harms magic because it limit's the mages movements, and gesturing is necessary to cast spells.If anything the ultra-rare ore should be used to make weapons that are magical. Not some one enchanting metal, which currently goes against IG effect due to the fact that metal is bad for magic. Personally, I like the way the crafting system is currently set up, it could just use some tweaking. It could use some balancing in a direction, but I do not think that putting another skill set in is the answer. If teleporting scrolls or scroll of total pwnage and what have you go IG, then it should simply go to mages, or be open to everyone and possibly to be made and require a mage to power. Not another new 'class'. Especially not with the current ig teacher situation.
Please list the end skill rewards for mages. I can only think of one, and that is the ability to teach. And to be fair, thats not really an advantage to the mage, but rather to mage students.As for the current 'end-skill' rewards for crafters? Well, there isn't a whole lot, and I know two, if not three, are directed alone to mages, and then smithing to fighters, and glassblowing is mainly for druids.
Thats not what we're trying to do, no, but sure... Your suggestions sound nice.If you want to add end-skill stuff for the current crafters, do it like this:
Rings with other effects. (such as the tracking rings that I am not entirely sure will work.)
Clothes that do cool stuff. Rabbit disguise, anyone?
Carpentry has good stuff, its just basically useless due to other methods of getting them.
Smithing is pretty good if not too good.
Glass blowing is neccasary but I have no clue what it can do beyond possibly vases.
Legitimite fear, and this might well be the result, but most fighters already have tons of magical weapons. The only difference in the system we suggest, is that the magical weapons would have another source.What I suggest, is that if this goes into the game, everyone will have magic. You can start off by saying, 'Well, we will just make it heavily limited.', because as cool as that is, it doesn't take long at all to get huge amounts of gems. Then the answer would be to lower the amount of gems available to get, which once again comes back to hurt carpenters, smiths, goldsmiths, and possibly tailors if I recall.
You have a point, but I adressed this earlier. The strongest argument AGAINST what I suggest, is that mages might already have too much power.Mr. Cromwell wrote:5.) Too much power and influence for magic chars. There's plenty already, so really guys, there's no need to make mages the sole givers of magic weapons too. If that is implemented we might just as well change the game from "Illarion" from "Play a mage or you're wasting your time-rion".
We must be VERY careful not to make druids useless by including scrolls. Therfor, I think scrolls should be limited to what mages already can do. Things like damage spells and portals.Exactly. We agree here. Thats why what they should be able to do is very minor, teleport scrolls, pure elemental shifts, and minor improvements to weapons in a 'one enchantment per thing', that might increase damage slightly, or speed, or what have you. A -small- nudge. Not enough to count as a craft in and of itself.
Heh, Im almost considering to have my char teach yours, entirely based on that sentence.. How cute xDJoxini Baenra wrote:Id deffidently fish for 1000 or 1500 fish just to know what it is like to cast magic and find out if it is for me!
though i hope you don't (and you shouldn't) as this would be crossing OOC knowledge with IG knowledge. and while it is an awesome sentence your character has a. no knowledge of it and b. may (depending on you and the character) act diferently.Aust wrote:Heh, Im almost considering to have my char teach yours, entirely based on that sentence.. How cute xDJoxini Baenra wrote:Id deffidently fish for 1000 or 1500 fish just to know what it is like to cast magic and find out if it is for me!