A jack of all trades, a master of none

Logrin Parr · Post by **Logrin Parr** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 6:01 am

I'm back to stick my nose where it doesn't belong with another suggestion. I know that it gets under some peoples skin to meet people who are smiths/miners/fighter/crafters/herb gathering/cooks wihen they specialize in just one feild. But find that said vison of perfection in all matters is better then them at their sole vocation. It causes the absurd momments that we all know (and love) such as flawless warrior baking cakes and farming tomatoes in between slaying undead and digging up treasure. My suggestion, barrows from an experience I had just receintly. I have been leisurely relaxing, and found my old bow laying about. So I went out to my yard and set up a few targets on trees, It was hard enough drawing back on the bow, let alone hitting the targets anymore. I had been spending my time on other things and low and behold, I became worse at others. My suggestion? Every person can still learn as normal, perhaps even make learning easier. But! And this is a J Lo sized But....As they learn certain skills, others decrease.

Here is an example:

Mr Face and Mr Hat are exactly the same attribute wise. Mr. Hat and Mr. Face both have the same skill in slashing on day X, Mr. Face takes up cooking while Mr. Hat works on his defence. they later fight over...lets say a heated discussion about purple socks. Mr. Hat wins, very easily. Because all that time making pies dulled Mr. Face to battle.

The moral? Make your character reasonable. For instance, someone who does a little of this and that, never ever becomes as good as someone who devotes themself to one thing. Jack of all trades, master of none as they say.

I propose that the skills be grouped so that say, learning certain skills degrades others more rapidly I.e A smith ruinin his eye for detail from prolonged mining if he tried to gather the sorces himself, or a cook loosing the deftness it takes for such things from getting into fist fights. But if the Smith say took up carpentry, or the cook started fishing, it wouldn't effect them much at all.

This would demand that people play out defined characters instead of some ambidexterous demi god

Now....discuss

Go!

Juniper Onyx · Post by **Juniper Onyx** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:15 am

Yeah, this was already discussed with no result.

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... hp?t=27187

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:31 am

Not a good idea IMHO.

Sometimes crafting gets amazingly boring, so between your 15th suit of practice plate-armor and your 999th mining session, you just feel like grabbing the excellent swords you're making and bashing someone with them.

And if a person is going to learn: Smithing/Mining/Tactics/Parry/Dodge/Slashing/Carpentry/Woodcutting, then you can rest assured that he's going to be less good at any of those, you don't need to drain his skills for it.

Logrin Parr · Post by **Logrin Parr** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 7:53 pm

By all means I see your point, I agree that a week end soldier would be abismal in comparison to burly man at arms who focuses only on fighting. But unfortunately this is only in the short run. Given enough time, and we all spend a fair ammount of time on this wonderful game. They would become a compitent fighter, the money they make form whatever proffession they choose could even allow them to purchase, or if they smith as well, create the better armors and weapons. At that point they have an insurmountable lead on the new players entering the game. It starts to become the point of, I've never heard of you before sword weilding nemisis...so I know that I can whoop you with a cooking spoon. Or even, I only buy goods from -insert name here- or even worse -I don't really buy anything- . I'm just trying to see if there is anything we can do to help give a boost to the rp. After all, you can see almost everyone who fishes, tossing away the fish. Not only would no living person do such a thing, but it would surely cause a viralent infection when done inside a town.

In the words of a great GM...or rather in paraphrase of those words. If you simply say what you don't like about an idea, we have less to work with, but if you say what you like, or add new ideas to it, we have more to choose from.

I already know that some people are against this sort of idea, but could we please try adding suggestions instead of statements about how bad my idea is?

Thank you in advance.

Avalyon el'Hattarr · Post by **Avalyon el'Hattarr** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:12 pm

I very much agree.. One has only one life and the day has only 24 hours, one doesnt live n lives in paralel.. so how can I become a master smith when I have already spent my life becomming a master swordsman?

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:06 pm

I think the problem is simply, that skill gain is a very very VERY steep non-linear graph (I forgot what kind of graph it is

root x?)

So in the beginning, you rush and become better faster.

Eventually your skill gain is so slow, that even if you took a breather and spent a week PG-ing your smithing... it won't make much of a difference.

Aegohl · Post by **Aegohl** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:16 pm

I've always suggested a skill system more like Ultima Online's, where you have only x amount of skill points to go around. That's called a skill cap, and what we have at Illarion and call a skill cap is just a punishment for playing.

The problem then is, however, that you can gain skill by accident at Illarion in a skill that you don't want to build up, and there's no way to fix your skills after you've gained them.

What you're really talking about, in the end, is basically making Illarion into UO without the superior graphics, animations, amount of critters to fight, amount of items, and all the other things that a game that has been professionally developed for a decade has. That's my understanding of why the staff never agreed with me on this one. However, what we do have does need to be changed.

Caecilianus Cathari · Thu Sep 18, 2008 10:35 pm

UO was made by professionals?

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Thu Sep 18, 2008 11:45 pm

Caecilianus Cathari wrote:UO was made by professionals?

Currently owned by Electronic Arts (EA)

Caecilianus Cathari · Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:16 am

Hadrian_Abela wrote:
Caecilianus Cathari wrote:UO was made by professionals?
Currently owned by Electronic Arts (EA)

Caecilianus Cathari wrote:UO was made by professionals?

Julius · Post by **Julius** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 12:26 am

I dislike the idea a lot.

I understand that your bow skills decreased over time (how many years was it in between usage). However, that does not mean that skills in certain things should decrease over time (four days for example.) As a person that played a good deal of sports throughout school (I played baseball and football mostly), I know for a fact that your "skills" really don't decrease. I tore my rotator cuff my Junior year pitching, rehabbed in the off season and was ready for my Senior football year and my baseball season.

In football, I was always missing practices here and there (bad ankles and knees) but it never really took me long at all to re-obtain the skills that I had worked my entire life for. Was my first step there when I came off blocks? I won't lie when I say that it did take some time to get readjusted to the system and full contact sports again, but like riding a bike, you never really forget something that you've spent years training.

Another negative for your idea is the simple fact that mining/smithing/and farming all include strenuous activities. As for me and my injuries I was only able to do simple rehab conditioning. When you mine, you gain muscle. When you drive a large hammer down into iron to make a sword, you gain muscle. When your working in the hot sun all day planting crops you are gaining muscle and burning fat. The idea that a man cooking for 1 day, training the next (after years of training) and then picking up a sword and having a degrade of knowledge is rather.. ignorant.

The idea in it's self is good for a long term (maybe turn based rp game), but not for Illarion. As for your "I'm a miner/craftsman/swordsman/musician/smith" thing. In rl men have many professions. I can tell you my father knows many different things (thatching, wood work, making car parts, auto work, and other things) before he got his head straight and decided to attend college.

Juliana D'cheyne · Post by **Juliana D'cheyne** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 1:05 am

Having played UO for awhile then mainly playing Illa, I have changed my mind about the skill systems comparing both. IMO the way it is done now on Illa is very nice and I have no complaints...and wouldn't want it changed. If every char ig was this super type possibly discussing it then but I haven't seen that to a large extent, knowing of just a few that are close to it but it doesn't seem to be abused ig.

Juniper Onyx · Post by **Juniper Onyx** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:36 am

I agree. This is a horrible idea at the moment.

Constantly, we see "Uberfighters" with 100% parry and weapons skills, but even they don't bother most characters. It's relatively easy to skill in fighting than crafting, so it makes sense.

However, In 2.5 years of crafting, I have yet to meet ANYONE with 100% skill in any "skilled" craft. (Not collecting like Mining, Lumberjacking, etc.)

I have heard of a small handful...but either they aren't active, or just aren't well-known. One I heard of, got Banned. I think by the time they advance to such a high level....maybe they get bored.

I don't see this as an issue at the moment.

Vern Kron · Post by **Vern Kron** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:16 am

What I dislike is the 'self-fullfilling' warriors. Those who make everything they use from scratch, and then go and train, to repeat. Or they spend more time crafting than training. Be one, or the other. Having warriors who make their own things bothers the already unbalanced economy.

Juniper Onyx · Post by **Juniper Onyx** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:39 am

Vern Kron wrote:What I dislike is the 'self-fullfilling' warriors. Those who make everything they use from scratch, and then go and train, to repeat. Or they spend more time crafting than training. Be one, or the other. Having warriors who make their own things bothers the already unbalanced economy.

Ummm.......I think most warriors eventually do this since the IG 'player' economy sucks. They always want "Good" or excellent quality armors, but...finding a smith that can make them 'exactly' what they want, is difficult, or expensive. It's easier and cheaper to do it yourself.

Most crafters turn into fighters because of the 'insane' lack of good control in cities. When people get clouded daily, they're going to learn how to fight. Plus.....try mining for 200 trips. You wanna vent off some steam.

I see fighters and crafters going hand in hand for several reasons. Unless we want to separate Skill Sets, I dn't see an easy way around it.

Anyway, I like this aspect, because you can still make your character however you want. Total freedom from "Skill Classes" and "Levels" is part of the charm of Illarion.

Julius · Post by **Julius** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:41 am

Juniper is a god.

Juniper Onyx · Post by **Juniper Onyx** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:43 am

Julius wrote:Juniper is a god.

Umm...thanks, but I don't think so.

Julius · Post by **Julius** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:43 am

Don't flatter yourself! There should be a ig deity named after you.

Juniper Onyx · Post by **Juniper Onyx** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:48 am

You do realize that IG, the copperpots got their name from his Great Grandfather, who was a slave and carried a "Copper Pot" around for a Noble to Relieve himself?

"Oui, Oui?" asks the dwarf.
"Yes, A lot!" says the noble.

Not the beginnings for a diety ~ God of Piss and excrement! LOL!!!.

Anyway, please stay on topic. Thanks.

Julius · Post by **Julius** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 3:52 am

Juniper could be the Illarion version of Jupiter/Zeus!

Sundo Raca · Post by **Sundo Raca** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:07 am

anyone who has the time to pg every skill needs to go outside more.

Julius · Post by **Julius** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:38 am

Yeah, that really helps the conversation, doesn't it?

Sundo Raca · Post by **Sundo Raca** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 5:17 am

does actually. Im pointing out that people rarely play true jack of all trades, because unless you literally spend insane amounts of time pging everything you will eventually want to specialise in a skill so as not to be seen as average by everyone. Therefore noone remains a jack of all trades forever, and its nothing really to worry about.

Julius · Post by **Julius** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 5:19 am

You see.. that's what I was pointing out. From your post, all you could see was sarcasm. It took a second post to explain that sarcasm, therefore, it doesn't help the conversation.

JonathanSmith · Post by **JonathanSmith** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:19 pm

To the previous posters: Thanks for spamming that proposal! Very useful content!

I like the base idea behind the proposal.

But the scope should not be only the crafting system, also fighting, casting, and other systems should be included. E.g for me it makes no sense, that a master swordsman is also a master in dagger or bow.

But the really anoying thing with the skills is, the huge amount of time needed to increase them. IG time that really could be spent for better purposes.

My additional proposal to avoid this:

1) Increase skill gain by factor 10. Reduce recovering from learning to much by factor 10. This makes powergaming unnecessary. Gives us players more time to RP or RL.

2) Make the resources easier available:
- Magic gates directly leading into the graveyard and other fighting areas
- Depots in mines, near woods, pig pens, etc.
- ...

PO John

Logrin Parr · Post by **Logrin Parr** » Fri Sep 19, 2008 9:35 pm

Now that is the kind of very useful suggestion that I was hoping for! As I said, My idea is far from perfect, but with more suggestions like this, instead of needless, " I don't like this " comments, it could be on it's way to perfection!

Well actually now that I think of it, this isn't my idea...as it was brought up before, in a slightly different way.

Let more ideas flow forth onto this topic!