Remove need for dye for smithing

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Mon May 12, 2008 12:48 pm

Whoever did the material requirements was a bit overzealous.

Lets say you've been making an armor, wasting resources to create this design, and then, you decide you need to paint it black, or else nobody will be able to use it.

Could you please remove the need for dye to paint shields, paint armors and whatnot? The dye has nothign to do with the function of the item, if you want to roleplay painting it that's very fine.

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Mon May 12, 2008 12:54 pm

100% ACK. In special because dye is no paint.

Kamilar · Post by **Kamilar** » Mon May 12, 2008 2:24 pm

I think the idea there was to increase the interaction between players. This gives some importance to tailors who, until paperdolling is implemented, really have little to do.

AlexRose · Post by **AlexRose** » Mon May 12, 2008 2:25 pm

Kamilar wrote:until paperdolling is implemented

You're an optimist I see.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Mon May 12, 2008 2:30 pm

Kamilar wrote:I think the idea there was to increase the interaction between players. This gives some importance to tailors who, until paperdolling is implemented, really have little to do.

But do you see it as even vaguely realistic, or even vaguely helping to roleplay?

Sorry I can't give you this shield, I haven't painted it yet, because of that it has no purpose as a shield and is merely a half-complete block of metal.

Kamilar · Post by **Kamilar** » Mon May 12, 2008 2:57 pm

Yes, I absolutely see your point. But consider this ...

Smiths are very valuable tradesmen in the ig economy, tailors are not. This just helps put a little balance into the game. We live with so many things that are not strictly realistic.

Rosendil · Post by **Rosendil** » Mon May 12, 2008 3:23 pm

Estralis Seborian wrote:100% ACK. In special because dye is no paint.

1) This is only valid in the english language. In german "Farbe" can be used in both usecases: For painting and for dyeing.

2) In my opinion (and I hope this covers mainly the ideas of the game designers), the main reason that resources/items from OTHER crafts are required in your own craft are not "reality based" (this is a fantasy game), but to create dependencies between the different crafts. The intention was eventually to increase trading and roleplay between the different crafters AND to give the other crafters besides the fighting/smithing circle a reason to work. Its a pity that most smiths work as a carpenter and tailors (dyers) too and of course vice versa. And its a pity that the current skilling system supports this.

3) Of course, in reality it makes no sense to "dye" an armor. But there are countless examples in Illarion that also don't make any sense (from the "reality point of view"): Have you ever seen cows in a carpentry or a kitchen? Entrails based as a resource for thread? (maybe as a bowstring ..) Gems and coal based as resources for dye? Skeletons that drop more gems than a miner can find during mining in same timespan? No onions in green briar and farmers union. Farming in the desert (varshikar). And so on ...

AlexRose · Post by **AlexRose** » Mon May 12, 2008 3:53 pm

Rosendil wrote:This is only valid in the english language. In german "Farbe" can be used in both usecases: For painting and for dyeing.

Oh that's alright then, I suppose the physical properties of dye completely change because of the language.

It's dye, used for tailoring, that's common knowledge, everyone knows it's not paint otherwise we'd see people solvent abusing instead of smoking their sibanac.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Mon May 12, 2008 4:25 pm

If its to cause inter-dependency its really done wrongly.

All it does is frustrate the person who's trying to make the item, and/or causes the item to become rare. There aren't much tailors around, and especially not tailors who will sell you a bunch of dyes so you can later fail at making the item and waste them.

As for the realism argument, just because somethign is bad, doesn't mean you can go overboard. I'll function very well with an unpainted armor/shield thank you very much.

Fianna Heneghan · Post by **Fianna Heneghan** » Mon May 12, 2008 4:37 pm

Hadrian_Abela wrote:If its to cause inter-dependency its really done wrongly.

All it does is frustrate the person who's trying to make the item, and/or causes the item to become rare. There aren't much tailors around, and especially not tailors who will sell you a bunch of dyes so you can later fail at making the item and waste them.

Fianna crafts dye in exchange for rp.

pharse · Post by **pharse** » Mon May 12, 2008 9:03 pm

I see no problem to create some kind of cloth-system which will give importance to tailors. I've proven my skills in such things anyway.

Lennier · Post by **Lennier** » Mon May 12, 2008 9:11 pm

If there is really no tailor and dyer around, we also could place an NPC-Trader anywhere as alchemist, who trades these dyes.

With this it would be easier for you and other to get such ressources also in times, when no tailor/dyer is around.

But an PC-dyer should be cheaper of course... So the price should be on a moderate but "high" level (30-50 coppers per bucket)

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Mon May 12, 2008 9:16 pm

So a shield will now cost 90-150 coppers (without failures) more?

Not very nice.

Lennier · Post by **Lennier** » Mon May 12, 2008 9:19 pm

You still can buy your dye from players

And why not? In a world where a simple dish costs 30-50 coppers between players and 1,5 silver via NPC, a shield should cost much more.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Mon May 12, 2008 10:04 pm

What will happen is simply, that nobody will produce "Black Visored Helmets" or Shields which require colour or "Black [something] armor", because there are better alternatives, and with a bit of training you can learn better things either way.

So basically you have a group of producable items which will be rarely around, a big waste.

maryday · Post by **maryday** » Mon May 12, 2008 11:57 pm

*sighs*
For some people its "White dye", for others it might be glue.
(I remember that from a certain "battlestaff-discussion"...)

Some smiths may "paint" their armors black,
while others experiment for years and years to find a "etchant" matching their personally preferred alloys.

ThisGuy · Post by **ThisGuy** » Tue May 13, 2008 7:06 am

I think you're right about items needing dye not being used as often, but I think a reasonable alternative to removing them completely would be to make them stronger or give them some type of bonus.

black visored helmets are light and(according to the person I made 1 for) aren't very good. red steel shields I've heard cause damage to an attacker when successfully blocked so thats 1 good reason to use 1(if it does) but the black armors, not sure if you mean nightplate or shadowplate, but all examples of the 2 I've seen are petty bad in combat.

also I agree with Rosendil, dyes shouldn't be made from coal or gems. the ground coal/gem sediment would quickly wash out of any garment. would be better if all dyes were made from some type of plant extract; maybe black berries for black dye and mix something else with the anger berry for blue...sorry to sort of hijack our thread but the first part is mostly on topic