Charcoal production

[Gro'bul]

I'm proposing that we should be able to make wood logs into coal for use replacing mined coal.

Why? Several reasons-
a.It gives towns not located in/right next to mountains the ability to produce coal from their natural surroundings, helping them compete for citizens.
b.Historically sound, this was a dominate production method for coal in the middle ages.
b1.charcoal mound examples:
http://www.allroutes.to/franconia/ironf ... coal02.jpg
http://www.fao.org/docrep/005/y4450e/y4450e17.jpg
http://www.lakehopestatepark.com/histor2.gif
c.Easier for players to pursue crafts, since alot of them require coal.
d.It would still be more efficient to mine it for mountain people, giving them a price advantage if they were to ever sell it.
e.Gives lumberjacks a huge new market.

Onto the production idea:
To make a mound for charcoal production you will need 10 logs and 10 shovels of clay. Place the logs on the ground, then use the shovel with them. Creates a charcoal mound. The yield rate from wood to charcoal is about 25% per kilo. Assuming a log is around 8-12 kilos, you might get about 3 coal out of one log. This would give around 30 coal per charcoal mound (we could add a randomizer for fun ). I think about the time of a campfire is reasonable for the charcoal mound to rot into just a pile of coal.

Only disadvantage I really see here is the same of that of campfires, which doesn't seem to be a big problem I guess.

[Vern Kron]

But that can make more of the island untouched. Such as, Varshikar's mines are used mainly for coal, and they can use it to trade to other towns. If coal can be made else where, what point is there for them to mine instead of doing that locally?
Lumberjacks already have a market, for selling to those building houses.

[Gro'bul]

But that can make more of the island untouched. Such as, Varshikar's mines are used mainly for coal, and they can use it to trade to other towns. If coal can be made else where, what point is there for them to mine instead of doing that locally?
Lumberjacks already have a market, for selling to those building houses.

Eat, walk, chop trees, deposit wood, walk, dig clay, walk, make charcoal mound, wait for it to burn, deposit coal, repeat.

Eat, walk, mine, deposit coal, repeat.

I think that if you have a coal mine, its more efficient still. I think then its probably cheaper to buy mined coal than buying wood coal because of that. Not to mention you'll end up having to replant trees, the coal mines never run out.

[Juniper Onyx]

I don't see how this adds anything to the game.

The idea of having resources in certain places was to 'increase' trade between people and towns, right?

With your idea, the few who buy coal from miners would no longer need to. This hurts the intended RP interaction.

Coal is currently found in five distinct locations around/under Gobaith. This isn't enough? There as many coal mines as Iron mines!

I am against this idea, because it simply isn't needed.

[Llama]

Heh I remember making this suggestion ages ago, let me look for it:

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... t=charcoal

For your consideration

[Pellandria]

Juniper this is a fairly weak argument, specialy coming from you.

The trade system doesn't work as it currently is, there is silverbrand, which not only floods the market with cheap gems but also cheap wares, then the nordmark, who had for a long time the only good field to plant onions, varshikar mine is allready cut down to half its capacety, as you only can go deeper, atleast if you don't you abadonne your cow and noones buying sand from them anyway.

As far as I see it the dwarves are the only race who actually have an advantage over every other race, having a huge mine right in there town, not to add a huge field almost right next to depot, means dwarves only need wood, which seems to be gathered on their own aswell and then we got "trading" posts like yours, who also flood the market with cheap ressources, so don't come along and tell us that this wouldn't add to the gameply.

[Faladron]

I agree (!!!) with Pellandria.

Sad to say but the only reason you Juniper don't see this adding to the game is because you see the buisiness of your character (who mines coal among other things) threatened.

Why doesn't this add to the game? It's an alternative way to obtain one of the resources most needed in game, gives people more things to do and adds to the roleplay definately by introducing a new "trade".

Also the idea of certain towns producing and trading certain resources isn't accomplished right now.

You can't have 24/7 surveillance on your town, thus at night people will come to farm in Greenbriar (best fields) afterwards chop wood around the Grey Rose castle, run for sand in the dessert and sieve it in Varshikar while noone's looking and in the end might pay one of the mines somewhere a visit, not being citizen of any of the mentioned towns,
still contributing to the game with a huge amount of goods and you can not do anything about it.

The only thing I'd change on this proposal Grobul is the amount of coal harvested by each mould.
Currently a campfire gives you 3 units of ash, why should a mould give you 30 pieces of coal then? I'd lower the amount to 3-5 coal gained so the miners don't feel that threatened by the competition.

Edit: And the few that buy coal are doing you a favor anyway, most people just mine on their own, it isn't that hard.

[Jupiter]

Edit: And the few that buy coal are doing you a favor anyway, most people just mine on their own, it isn't that hard.

Well, resting upon own experience I can say that is not totaly correct. People who have enough money buy it instead of mining by themself.
And you can make really good money as a miner, if you know the rich smith

[Gro'bul]

@Faladron - My proposal was that 2-3 peices of coal per wood already. If you did not see that, I proposed each "mound" would be made of 10 clay and 10 wood, producing anywhere from 20-30 coal.

And thats true Jupiter, I was one of those guys. The problem was, nobody was willing to sell me coal most of the time because it was too hard to get. I tried to make a contract with Silverbrand once for coal and once for a mining license, both fell through after months of waiting (and mining without their direct consent ). But thats in the past right?

[Jaren]

I like the idea. Anything that ties skills together in a realistic and fun way should be encouraged.

[Solumn]

This is certainly interesting, maybe not for smith, we definitely could use them for cooking. I mean for certain food.

[ThisGuy]

would different types of wood make more or less charcoal?

again like I said in the other thread I really like the idea(would have been great while the northern mine was broken) but I'm just curious about your idea

also could there be a static tool used to make it? I liked Hadrian_Abela's idea of using the furnace and heating a log there to make charcoal

[Gro'bul]

would different types of wood make more or less charcoal?

again like I said in the other thread I really like the idea(would have been great while the northern mine was broken) but I'm just curious about your idea

also could there be a static tool used to make it? I liked Hadrian_Abela's idea of using the furnace and heating a log there to make charcoal

To the first question- In reality yes, hardwoods would make considerably more charcoal because of their carbon density. But this is a game, and I think that generally we want to keep it as simple as possible so that we don't have people planting a bajillion of one particular tree.

To Hadrian's idea - Personally I like to keep to a historical stance on production methods. Something like a "double boiler" is used to create charcoal using the indirect method. Its kind of a modern process, and really energy inefficient (modern people couldn't care less) though producing a higher wood-charcoal yeild. The wood you use to cook the other wood could be made into charcoal instead of being burnt.

example of a modern retort using the "indirect method":
http://64.176.180.203/charcoalretort.htm

[Gro'bul]

I don't see how this adds anything to the game.

The idea of having resources in certain places was to 'increase' trade between people and towns, right?

With your idea, the few who buy coal from miners would no longer need to. This hurts the intended RP interaction.

Coal is currently found in five distinct locations around/under Gobaith. This isn't enough? There as many coal mines as Iron mines!

I am against this idea, because it simply isn't needed.

Sorry that I didn't address your comments.

1.I doubt this will decrease any trade, due to the increased time and material consumption of wood coal. But for a tailor, 30 coal would be enough dye to last a while, making it easier for them to get a little coal. Whereas a rich blacksmith could run through 500 per day without the hassle of actually making or mining it himself.

2.I think it would be great for basically anyone south of the Troll's Vein who needs some coal for whatever reason. Take note that, my proposal REQUIRES a mined item to be done. Make it easier for them to buy clay from you than it is to walk alll the way to the swamp and dig it. Win - win.

[Lrmy]

I don't see how this adds anything to the game.

The idea of having resources in certain places was to 'increase' trade between people and towns, right?

With your idea, the few who buy coal from miners would no longer need to. This hurts the intended RP interaction.

Coal is currently found in five distinct locations around/under Gobaith. This isn't enough? There as many coal mines as Iron mines!

I am against this idea, because it simply isn't needed.

I'm with you...meh..

[Juniper Onyx]

Juniper this is a fairly weak argument, specialy coming from you.

Humor me, and think before you talk. I am one of the few players who actually "Kill" off my 'big' characters. Have you? I don't give a damn if something benefits 'Chester' or not. He's just a temporary character that fulfills a purpose like Dusty, Kurga, etc before him. I am able to separate my "Roleplay" from my views of Game Dynamics. Every character I play gets better and better because the game does too, and that is more important than what "Chester" does at the moment. Who knows what other characters or roles I shall play next?

The trade system doesn't work as it currently is, there is silverbrand, which not only floods the market with cheap gems but also cheap wares,

Only if you can speak German! I have never 'bought' cheap wares from Silverbrand. Haven't been able to (Different Timezones and Language)and I believe there are several others who haven't either. You wouldn't understand, because you can take advantage of their 'discounts'.

then the nordmark, who had for a long time the only good field to plant onions, varshikar mine is allready cut down to half its capacety, as you only can go deeper, atleast if you don't you abadonne your cow and noones buying sand from them anyway.

Cow to mine with?? Oh, yeah....that's powergaming, right? Hypocrite!

As far as I see it the dwarves are the only race who actually have an advantage over every other race, having a huge mine right in there town, not to add a huge field almost right next to depot, means dwarves only need wood, which seems to be gathered on their own aswell

The Mine, they expanded over time though the work, efforts and money of their citizens of Silverbrand (Before my time). The field was bought and paid for by them too, just like any other town or Guild can do!

The way I see it, the Dwarves actually "try" to stay focused, work as a team, and stay in their 'Homeland'. I have always admired their 'unity' and even tried three times to join them to no avail (Language problem!). Humans are spread out all over, and the Elves don't even know where home is. Those two races therefore get little accomplished. Halflings have left Greenbriar, and the Lizards and Orcs are too few to do anything constructive. They try now and then, but it never lasts. The 'special' races are 'specially' extinct from Gobaith!

I respect Silverbrand, for having the perseverence, continued teamwork and no-nonsense attitudes to build what they have over several RL Years! They built it and those players deserve our respect. I consider the rest of us as fortunate to have an example of a "Thriving" community. But it's easier to be jealous and throw mud at them I suppose?

and then we got "trading" posts like yours, who also flood the market with cheap ressources, so don't come along and tell us that this wouldn't add to the gameply.

Now that's just uncalled for. A day after starting C.O.W.S., I Voluntarily restricted it to Guilds and Towns because I realized that it would hurt the player economy. The idea was to help because it is "Hard" to gather resources for your town when it is usually the leader stuck doing most of the work him/herself! Again, you haven't built anything, so you wouldn't understand. If I was the Evil Powergamer you make me out to be, why would I bother?

You really should give me the benefit of the doubt and consider the possibility that I might have some clue of what the f#@k I am talking about!

Have a nice Day!
~Juniper "Frank" Onyx

PS: I still don't see any benefit to the idea of making Charcoal. Due to weight, it is easier and faster to get coal than Iron is! All my customers I have had always ask for Iron, not coal! Iron is a pain to get due to the heavy weight of the ore. A miner has to make 3-4 times as many trips for Iron than coal. That takes much more time and is boring as hell!

Here's an idea, you want to really improve coal mining? Organize some friends, make a guild and put a Depot near the North Coal Mine! I can't believe all these years, no-one has thought of that simple solution!

"Scotty, Beam me up, there's no intelligent life here!"

[Skaalib Drurr]

Well when I did the miners guild I did try that, but we weren't allowed to build a guild hall by the north mine.

[Pellandria]

Humor me, and think before you talk. I am one of the few players who actually "Kill" off my 'big' characters.

As we talk about trading here, I don't even see a relation between that and the current topic, except that you might pull all the money and items stored in your Char from the market, not to add, killing their own chars is, atleast for me, no proof if you are any better rp'er than anyone else.

..I don't give a damn if something benefits 'Chester' or not. He's just a temporary character that fulfills a purpose like Dusty, Kurga, etc before him.

Yes, but the topic is not "does your char fullfill a purpose and do you kill him afterwards" we are talking about a new way to get coal and if this is something good or bad for the trade on the island.

I am able to separate my "Roleplay" from my views of Game Dynamics.

I don't even have a char who uses coal or iron except for the fact that I'm selling it, becaus I don't need them, so I guess I have a better seperation than you.

Only if you can speak German! I have never 'bought' cheap wares from Silverbrand. Haven't been able to (Different Timezones and Language)and I believe there are several others who haven't either. You wouldn't understand, because you can take advantage of their 'discounts'.

There are more than enough ways to get silverbrand wares, ask somone who is playing at your and their timezone or get somone who can speak both languages, with a little effort its easy and maybe you read my sentence more carefully, I was blaming the nonfunction of the trade system on facst like this, why should I then take "advantage" on their discounts.

Cow to mine with?? Oh, yeah....that's powergaming, right? Hypocrite!

You seriously can call someone a powergamer, man thank you for that joke buddy.

The Mine, they expanded over time though the work, efforts and money of their citizens of Silverbrand (Before my time). The field was bought and paid for by them too, just like any other town or Guild can do!

thats not even the point, yes they can buy it, but the fact that they do so simply is ~bad~ for the trade and thats it.

The way I see it, the Dwarves actually "try" to stay focused, work as a team, and stay in their 'Homeland'. I have always admired their 'unity' and even tried three times to join them to no avail (Language problem!). Humans are spread out all over, and the Elves don't even know where home is. Those two races therefore get little accomplished. Halflings have left Greenbriar, and the Lizards and Orcs are too few to do anything constructive. They try now and then, but it never lasts. The 'special' races are 'specially' extinct from Gobaith!

Yeah sure, just stay in your hidy hole and never rp with someone else and then call it "unity" seriously, we speak about the topic of ~trading~ here and silverbrand is simply the one prime example why the trading system doesn't work, they got a huge mine right befor their noses and still they have ALL kinds of crafters in their town, means they don't need to buy something from others, but sell their wares and a town that only exports but never imports wares is and always will be bad for economy.

I respect Silverbrand, for having the perseverence, continued teamwork and no-nonsense attitudes to build what they have over several RL Years! They built it and those players deserve our respect. I consider the rest of us as fortunate to have an example of a "Thriving" community. But it's easier to be jealous and throw mud at them I suppose?

Taking Illarion as a community rpg, I don't think that staying in one place and just playing for their own sake brings much to the game at hand, atleast I always thougth we are supposed to play together not each in seperate little groups and I might be wrong, but I think old silverbrand was never actually paid and I missed the construction of new silverbrand, but its not a huge accomplishment, if they were given this town for "free"(can some player, who is more involved in silverbrand actually tell us if dwarves had to pay for their old or new town?)

Now that's just uncalled for. A day after starting C.O.W.S., I Voluntarily restricted it to Guilds and Towns because I realized that it would hurt the player economy.

You exactly know, that this is just blinding yourself, you seriously think those, who order under a gild or town name, actually buy this for their town? They buy it and use iit for their craft, nothing else and I'm sure you know this fact, yet you still sell the ressources.

The idea was to help because it is "Hard" to gather resources for your town when it is usually the leader stuck doing most of the work him/herself! Again, you haven't built anything, so you wouldn't understand. If I was the Evil Powergamer you make me out to be, why would I bother?

I built enough allready, the magic academy is undergoing "heavy" rebuilting and redesign under our new leadership, so I know exactly how hard it can be to gather ressources, but lets take a look at what you sell.
Not to add that you say the words powergamer, I never said something about it.

1 Silver Category: Sand, Copper ore, Fruits, Fish, Pork, Pebbles, Boughs, Clay, Nails.

3 Silver Category: Coal, Iron, Logs/Boards (any), Bricks, Bottles (any), Leather, Thread, Honey, Grain/Flour/Dough, Ash, Branches.

5 Silver Category: Gold Nuggets, Raw Stones, Raw Gems (any), Tools (any), Buckets.

For the normal building you need bricks, stones, tools, sand and boards
Why do you sell all the "red" items then?

[Korm Kormsen]

pellandria, you wrote about Silberbrand:

they got a huge mine right befor their noses and still they have ALL kinds of crafters in their town, means they don't need to buy something from others, but sell their wares and a town that only exports but never imports wares is and always will be bad for economy.

Silberbrand imports on a regular basis food, lumbering and other products by the thousands.

just one of the many things ingame, you ignore.

I don't even have a char who uses coal or iron except for the fact that I'm selling it, becaus I don't need them, ...

well, i would like to suggest, that you don't judge things, you have not the slightest idea about.
your adamant opinions about everything are very tireing to me (and i think, to others too)

korm
.

[Juniper Onyx]

.... killing their own chars is, atleast for me, no proof if you are any better rp'er than anyone else.

Try it! You are one of those players who are soooo attached to your character that you'll whine at the slightest discomfort. Remember when you whined when little Dusty kicked your a@@! Hehe, you claimed I powergamed. Truth was, Pellandria at that time was rather weak, but you whined about it for days! Hehe.

I don't even have a char who uses coal or iron except for the fact that I'm selling it, becaus I don't need them, so I guess I have a better seperation than you.

Huh? I don't understand your reasoning here. You mentioned mining with a cow (Which I have never done!), so you must be 'mining'. You accused me of my position because of my character, and I stated my point that my character has no affect upon my views as a player of the Game at large. Who's confusing RP with player views here?

There are more than enough ways to get silverbrand wares, ask somone who is playing at your and their timezone or get somone who can speak both languages, with a little effort its easy and maybe you read my sentence more carefully, I was blaming the nonfunction of the trade system on facst like this, why should I then take "advantage" on their discounts.

I said you didn't understand why in two+ years of playing, I have never bought these 'cheap' wares from Silverbrand. It wasn't for lack of trying.

You seriously can call someone a powergamer, man thank you for that joke buddy.

Who was joking? I have many things I could say, but I don't want to be banned for saying what everyone thinks of you anyway.

thats not even the point, yes they can buy it, but the fact that they do so simply is ~bad~ for the trade and thats it.

Actually, as soon as everyone began buying their own tools, fields, depots, etc, the trade between towns went downhill anyways, not that it was great in the first place. If a town or guild wishes to expand and improve the things "They" can do to have fun with their characters, who are you to say they can't?

Yeah sure, just stay in your hidy hole and never rp with someone else and then call it "unity" seriously, we speak about the topic of ~trading~ here and silverbrand is simply the one prime example why the trading system doesn't work, they got a huge mine right befor their noses and still they have ALL kinds of crafters in their town, means they don't need to buy something from others, but sell their wares and a town that only exports but never imports wares is and always will be bad for economy.

Umm....no it's not. Economics 101, a Trade Deficit is good for the exporting economy, bad for the importer. It's not that Silverbrand 'exports too much and imports too little, it's that everyone else exports too little and imports too much! Everyone's gotta have the "Best" Armor or Weapon! If players valued food, clothing and other crafts equally, there would be no problem. Don't blame Silverbrand for doing something everyone desires! Help fix the system.

Taking Illarion as a community rpg, I don't think that staying in one place and just playing for their own sake brings much to the game at hand, atleast I always thougth we are supposed to play together not each in seperate little groups and I might be wrong,

You are wrong. By Definition, Guilds are meant for the few "Likeminded" individual to join and "specialize" their skills or friendships. A Miner's Guild doesn't want to be bothered about how to make a pair of shoes. Dwarves wouldn't want to socialize with Orcs. If everyone just hugged and interacted with everyone else, there would be no point of Guilds or even towns, would there?

but I think old silverbrand was never actually paid and I missed the construction of new silverbrand, but its not a huge accomplishment, if they were given this town for "free"(can some player, who is more involved in silverbrand actually tell us if dwarves had to pay for their old or new town?)

Again, you are wrong. There is a book in Silverbrand that describes how the first King, Tialdin and a group of Dwarves paid dearly for their town to become started. Yes, not by the building rules we have today, but they still paid "something" for it! It was usually arranged with the GM's. The Grey Rose, and the origin of the Isle of Briar and town of Greenbriar were also likewise "Paid" for somehow by a group of characters in a "Quest-like" situation.

You exactly know, that this is just blinding yourself, you seriously think those, who order under a gild or town name, actually buy this for their town? They buy it and use iit for their craft, nothing else and I'm sure you know this fact, yet you still sell the ressources.

You assume too much. Each Guild and Town have an active "Leader". It is up to them to say what they need or not. The orders I have recieved will benefit those Guilds and towns. The person doing the ordering is also the one doing the most needed work for that guild or town. 10% of the players do 90% of the work. I don't care why they order it, not my business, and it's not yours either.

I built enough allready, the magic academy is undergoing "heavy" rebuilting and redesign under our new leadership, so I know exactly how hard it can be to gather ressources, but lets take a look at what you sell.
Not to add that you say the words powergamer, I never said something about it.

When you fill up three depots full of resources, struggle to try to get help-getting a little if any, only to give it all away to build something for the benefit of others, then you'll understand. Until then, you don't. Nuf said.

Uses of your 'red' items:

Copper ore, Honey-Lanterns
Fruits, Fish, Pork, Grain/Flour/Dough-food to continue work
Pebbles- Armory for the town
Boughs, Branches- Handles for tools, Long handles for Loom
Thread-Loom and Tailor table
Ash-Farmfields
Leather, Thread-to make bags to hold necessary tools and such for the project
Raw Gems-for their treasury to help pay for the project

Now get off your pedestal of righteousness before you hurt yourself. Nuf' said.

[Lennier]

Since when anyone is in need to make a public protocol about what he paid to me as "builder" of the most constructions? Could you tell me this?

If you do not know, what was the price for a building, in which you are not involved, please stop to speculate, that they got their stuff for free.

The same anyone, who has not a mage, could tell about the MA.

I also do not know, what number of goods Tialdin had to pay for the original Silverbrand. It is more than 5 years ago.

But i know, that the current Silverbrand is the most expensive complexe, which is payed ingame... without to tell you the exact number here (i would bet about 80-100 gold coins [material included] in the last 2+1/2 years.)

Also Djironnyma (his friends) payed. If you belief me or not.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And now, back to topic!

The idea is old, and in general it is a good idea. Charcoal could have more functions. Not only in use instead of fossil coal. Maybe included in the alchemy/druid system in future.. who knows.

The speculated lower trade with coal is no reason. We would have tools, to compensate it.

Apropos, the production of charcoal need to be fit with the current crafting system.. Which means, we need hand and static tools. Inspecial the charcoal mound should only be on fix places.

[Djironnyma]

we payed all in all 5000 Silver Ingots for first silverbrand..... (what was real much)

[Pellandria]

First off as this discussion with juniper drags more and more off topic I'm so free and spare others with that and simply writte him a pm concerning those things.
Then good to know that old silverbrand was paid, even if it has no actually influence on the game now.

pellandria, you wrote about Silberbrand:
Silberbrand imports on a regular basis food, lumbering and other products by the thousands.

Yes from the nordmark, that is their one and only partner, no matter how often you ask them, and it strikes me as strange that the nordmark is able to provide this + a regular market day + other normal trades, but I guess this is up to no discussion, as any dwarf will come up with the "dwarves cna do everything alone anyway" argument, but out of the trade perspectiv, only importing from one source, but exporting to anyone else is still bad.

I don't even have a char who uses coal or iron except for the fact that I'm selling it, becaus I don't need them, ...

well, i would like to suggest, that you don't judge things, you have not the slightest idea about.

Simply because I don't use the ressource, means I have no Idea of it, thats kinda strange thing to say, I know coal has several uses and thus an alternativ way to gain coal would actually be usefull.

To the topic: To the static tool, aren't there allready several trades that exclude themself from this rule, I'm thinking about the reducion of raw stones to "normal" stones or flailing, and or could't wood /clay made "useable" for the fact of filling a possible mound?

[Lrmy]

Pellandria, you have simply stated incorrect facts in this topic. Also, mind you, you went more off topic here than Juniper did.

I think that easier coal would hurt the income of smiths that get their own coal. It would also hurt the income of people mining the coal and then re-selling it. I'm not sure how long you have been playing, but since the mining areas moved outside of Troll's Bane years ago, the only easy place to get ores and coal was in Silverbrand because they paid for the mine. They are dwarves. I think that makes sense. Also, I'm rather sure the mine's position's on the island were not random. Ever stop to think maybe no one wanted it to be to easy for everyone to get all ores and coal?

[Julius]

I love this idea.

[Gro'bul]

Inspecial the charcoal mound should only be on fix places.

I'm not sure why something that is little more than a campfire with dirt on it requires a special place. A campfire requires no special place to be used to cook on. Same for cutting raw stone, tanning leather, turning grey cloth to white, making pot ash, and flailing bundles to grain.

[ThisGuy]

I think that easier coal would hurt the income of smiths that get their own coal. It would also hurt the income of people mining the coal and then re-selling it.

wouldn't easier coal mean they can actually make more from what they sell? from a Trollsbane perspective(since thats where we all start):

making it yourself means you don't have to take that long walk to the north mine and possibly get killed by goblins(usually 1 near the entrance 1/3 times I go there and no ladder anymore so no way to escape them) and instead work near town were its safer(since you're a smith not a fighter) and get the charcoal you need and bring it back to the depot...

or buying it from someone who makes it means no one is being put out of business, just things changing a bit and small adaptations would need to be made that in the end help everyone.

I'm not sure how long you have been playing, but since the mining areas moved outside of Troll's Bane years ago, the only easy place to get ores and coal was in Silverbrand because they paid for the mine.

well since I've been playing the mines were always where they are now, I've been told I can't mine in Silverbrand(probably because I mostly play lizards) so this makes this game unfair to people who don't want to play dwarves...

since new players are recommended to start as humans doesn't that disadvantage all new players?

Ever stop to think maybe no one wanted it to be to easy for everyone to get all ores and coal?

I don't think anyone is asking for it to be easy, just not so complex. any new players who join this game and wants to become a smith is probably going to quit after a few days of having to go to the north mine for coal(especially if they're get killed by goblins) just to bring back 20-30 coal

Well, resting upon own experience I can say that is not totaly correct. People who have enough money buy it instead of mining by themself.

thats because of all the trouble it is to mine coal, which is why the recommendation of charcoal is here.

I'm sure people who make charcoal would be able to sell just as easily as those who mine coal, which would also make a new way for someone to make money...

[Vern Kron]

This is intended to promote trade. There is one other coal mine in game, that does not have goblins or otherwise in it or on the way. People will sell coal, if you order it.

[Juniper Onyx]

This is intended to promote trade. There is one other coal mine in game, that does not have goblins or otherwise in it or on the way. People will sell coal, if you order it.

Actually, there are four other locations.

For everyone's information, the King of Silverbrand 'opened' the mines recently to all. So the whole "The dwarves keep it to themselves" argument isn't even true.

As Lennier said, the copper mountains have coal now, and there is also the mines in Varshikar and Tol Vanima.

As I have said before, most people I have met are willing to buy Iron more than coal, because it takes more work to get Iron. I have never had problems geting coal with any of my previous non-dwarf characters. What exactly is the problem other than newbies want it easy?

I still see no value to this idea. Can't we focus on more 'productive' ideas than this?

[Ivar Kraftimarm]

Yes from the nordmark, that is their one and only partner, no matter how often you ask them, and it strikes me as strange that the nordmark is able to provide this + a regular market day + other normal trades, but I guess this is up to no discussion, as any dwarf will come up with the "dwarves cna do everything alone anyway" argument, but out of the trade perspectiv, only importing from one source, but exporting to anyone else is still bad.

First trade with Greenbriar:
... (1500 coal, 750 iron, 750 copper)
First trade with Settlement of Caelum:
... (250 Iron Ore, 250 Coal)
First Trade with Zhatys:
... (750 iron ore, 750 copper ore, 1500 coal)
Second trade with Caelum
... (400 Iron ore, 400 Coal)
Second Trade with Greenbriar
... (1500 coal, 1000 iron ore, 500 copper ore)
Third Trade with Greenbriar
... (750 Coal Ore, 500 Iron Ore, 250 Copper Ore, 20 Gold Nuggets,50 Raw Gems)

we got
1000 conifer boards
1000 dedious boards
400 Naldor logs
250 grain
50 onions
200 strawberries
500 tomatoes
440 entrails/thread
100 arrows
250 Apples
250 Cherries
250 Thread
375 Salmon
1000 boards of dedious wood
1500 boards of conifer wood
1000 thread / entrails
250 salmon
500 Cherries
500 Apples
1000 Trout
550 Salmon
500 strawberries
750 Naldor logs / Ash
1500 dedious boards
750 grain
750 tomatoes
500 Cabbagge
400 Apple Logs
400 Conifer Logs
400 Naldor Logs

thats only a small part of our tradings. as far as i know we had also some trade with the farmers union. normally we trade with everyone. the only case i know we didn't trade was lord cromwell and this was because of the actual politicial situation.

so please, pellandria, don't talk about things you don't know. maybe some people trust in you if you say the only trading partner of silverbrand is the nordmark, whats definite not true.