A rant.

[Pestilence]

Before I say anything, I just really want you guys to know I love you all. There is a reason I keep rearing my ugly head and making random characters to play, yet I cant seem to find it.

Let me just bring you all back for one moment. When I first started playing, from what little I can remember (besides sucking at Roleplay), I played a Farming Orc. This orc had Grand-Mastered Farming in less than a month. That's right, I had a skill in yellow in less than 31 days. This is with moderate playing time on pretty much most of the week. Due to this, I was able to sit around in game and chat with Pendar and anyone else I wished. Due to this, I was able to Roleplay and improve upon my skills.

I did not play for too long before the Illarion client got renewed completely. To put it mildly, everyone was utterly overjoyed. We completely respected the staff for their dedication and things were good.. until we played. Every single character (which just had a rebirth) was a fletching at first. Why? Sam was the merchant in the store, and he bought Axe-Handles, the most simple of all products to be made in the entire game at the time, for 1 copper each. If you can imagine, supposing you didn't play then, we had lots of characters cutting down hundreds of trees and mass-producing Axe Handles to afford very basic things on their new characters. As you can imagine, it was very boring going from overly-opulent Cabbage-Farmer to shit broke and skill whoring.

Skill whoring is the reason why I cannot enjoy today's Illarion as I had once done. Nitram, in his infinite wisdom, has decided to take this game from Roleplay based to Skill-Based, yet at the same time keeping it annoyingly RP based. In this, I mean that when the new client first came out, the time it took to produce a level stuck out like a sore thumb. This was partly due to the massive amounts of EXP it took to level and how the invention of the 'Skill Cap' took its role as the most annoying thing in Illarion.

You might be wondering, "Now that you mention it, it is odd that the game is so skill dependent yet has things to inhibit skills." Nitram, in his infinite wisdom, had decided that it would be proper to enforce a state of ill-concentration to encourage Roleplay. What's funny about this is.. Roleplay in Illarion is based off skills in a way. It used to be that skilling was limited because of how easy it was to skill in the first place. Now, it is so difficult people WANT to skill. People would rather try to get GOOD skills over the Illarionite past time of sitting around a campfire talking about things. Illarion is about skills.

TL;DR: I blame Nitram.

[Dantagon Marescot]

People would rather try to get GOOD skills over the Illarionite past time of sitting around a campfire talking about things. Illarion is about skills.

This is a great pass time which I wish people would enjoy more. Some of the best rps are when you are sitting around a campfire. I truthfully miss it. It is great fun... until one of the more skilled fighters comes around and draws their weapons with the intent of beating you up for some stupid reason.

I bame Nitram

Brilliant conclusion. Let's all blame Nitram. *Pokes Nitram blamingly.*

[Korm Kormsen]

when i was younger, the apples were bigger, the strawberries were sweeter, the girls were nicer...

illarion is a game.
let us compare with any commercial game:
one buys a new game. one plays it. a sequel is produced. one plays it. (heroes of might and magic must have reached sequel 10 by now)
one does not like a sequel and does not play it.
one can't go back to an older sequel (just tried to install settlersII on win XP) so one either plays the new sequel, or one seeks another game.
compared to:
one loads down illarion for free. one plays it. illarion gets changed. does one play it? does one play other games?
NOOOO! - one starts to rant at the forum. to the effect, that others fun at the game gets disturbed.
so one is thanking for the free ride, one had (while it lasted) with ranting.

conclusion - illarion's biggest fault is beeing for free.

my council: just play, and take fun out of it, as it is.
or quit. i mean - quit for good.
and please, don't step on others nerves about yesteryear's snow.
even if illarion was better, the sweets were sweeter, elvis was still alive and the girls were nicer...

[Thariel Feuersturm]

~signed~

[Aegohl]

I think it's fantaaaastic that you've decided to blame Nitram for all this, because back then Nitram was a relative newbie scripter for Illarion and honestly wasn't in a place to add a lot of what you've complained about.

In fact, at the time I recall other developers complaining about Nitram's bug-making and such, while the same developers nowadays would say that Illarion wouldn't still be around without him.

While I suppose you could say that Nitram is in a position to fix those things, that would be given time and the motivation to do so. I think, though, that the position of the current developers is that the skill cap system is fixable rather than a bad idea altogether (my opinion differs. In fact, I argue that what they call a 'skill cap' isn't one, but hey.. we can't win them all.)

If this whole thing is somehow inspired by my past arguments with the staff, please realize that my anger is very rarely directed at the way that the game has been or is being developed (while I give suggestions and criticism in that arena, I also understand that developing a game is a difficult thing to do). In fact, the only issue I have in that regard is that there have been some very public cases where one developer or another has said that they've forgone bug-fixing entirely because it's "not fun" or "not motivating" whereas I know developers of other free games that merely accept that bug-fixing is on the top of any priority list in the development of a game. Even that, however, I can accept and isn't a source of anger.

To be perfectly clear, as someone who was a member of the staff at the time that whoever it is is speaking about it, Nitram wasn't to blame for that and couldn't have been. And at the time there was more hands working on Illarion than at any previous time in Illarion's history. The above is ridiculous.

[Harald Hradradr]

Maybe I do something wrong then, when playing my Characters role. Have lots and lots of roleplaying. This involves his work, conversation with a fellow crafter, conversation about the latest gossip, being worried at times, having fun at times, helping here, doing that...
I even met players who do not work or fight (therefor have even less Skills than my Character) and....ENJOYED IT BIG TIME! Maybe it is the player and what he makes out of this game then?

[Llama]

The skillcap is needed.

If there wasn't one, certain people would just Pg all day long, and become the 'best' characters in the game, which is something which I doubt we want to reward.

The skillgrinding is something I totally HATE. Allright, GMing within a month isn't a good idea, but repeatadly needing to do repetative things is just... boring.

[Retlak]

Sadly the skill cap kills the motivation of pure roleplayers, not powergamers.

[AlexRose]

If there wasn't one, certain people would just Pg all day long, and become the 'best' characters in the game, which is something which I doubt we want to reward.

Actually, currently the skillcap system enables the pgers' high circle to get high skills quick and everyone else to have to spend years . But ah well, I like the skillcap system.

[Boremier]

Well when I first started playing (in 2002) the game was very basic, the RP was not AS forced as it is now. I've seen this game change dramatically since I've been a player, hell there were no planned quests at all! Just a random demon attack on trollsbane.

Over this time the community has become larger and larger with each year, with people coming and going then coming back again (hehe like me). I agree that the skillcap is indeed needed, my only problem with it is RPing a knight from a faraway kingdom (like my char Azzler), now most knight chars have a back story of knight training (it wouldn't make sense otherwise). Now you can't RP a weak as shit knight who has no idea how to fight yet has somehow found his way to gobaith without getting himself killed, so theres no choice but to grind and grind and grind until you feel comfortable RPing said knight.

In my own opinion alot of RP is confidence based anyway i.e. being confident in your chars abilities. But I have absolutely no problems with the skill cap, it makes the game more of a challenge and you're forced to do other things rather then kill kill kill. I do admit I miss the campfire conversations with people such as: Sevious Helios, Hermie, Ezorock and Cain Freemont, was always a good laugh.

Yes it has changed, yes the skill system is unique and different and yes it's not the same as it used ot be (hell smithing was a piece of piss!) but I feel that it has ultimately changed for the better, we have more players logging online then we did in a night all those years ago and there is more to do.

You can't blame Nitram if he's changed it, he's a player to you know. He just wants to make it as fun for us as possible.

I apologize for the rant but I wanted to get my feelings across, I usually stay out of things like this, I also probably missed out stuff but my brain is now frazzled

[Aegohl]

The skillcap is needed.

If there wasn't one, certain people would just Pg all day long, and become the 'best' characters in the game, which is something which I doubt we want to reward.

The skillgrinding is something I totally HATE. Allright, GMing within a month isn't a good idea, but repeatadly needing to do repetative things is just... boring.

It isn't a skillcap. A skillcap is when you can only have x amount of skillpoints and have to wisely decide a character "build." The strongest characters are then the characters who min/max (put little or no points in skills they won't use and put all of their skill points in skills that they will use), which forces a player to make important decisions about what their character it is and what his priorities are.

One complaint that is often had about powergamers at Illarion is that they're good at *everything!*. They often play weak character concepts that follow that idea, too. Their concept is that their character is the toughest person ever and most fast and best crafter and all that all in one. As a result, they often argue that their powergaming is *needed* to fit their character concept (sound familiar, Mister K?), because how else would they be able to play this character? You can't play a badass who gets beat up all the time, or a great smith who can't make anything, or a stealthy assassin without... and so on.

A real skill cap, a cap over all skills that only allows you so many skills at a time (preferably included with some way to change skills over time, so one's character can develop in new directions, reducing skill x to gain skill y and so on) makes you stick to a concept that is fair for everyone.

This sort of system not only makes sure that there isn't anyone who's all powerful (while granting the tacticians the ability to compete for the right build that does this or that just right) but it makes you make decisions that are actually helpful to character development.

At that point, since we all have the same amount of points to distribute (with time and effort) it doesn't matter how much time you or I spend using those skills or building them or what not. It becomes a matter of your own business, and that's the way it should be in a game. If I feel like pissing off to the farthest regions of the map and killing monsters and you have an opinion about that, you can shove it, frankly.

Ultimately, the "skill cap" that Illarion has doesn't stop what you're suggesting it stops. In fact, the people who were already previously skilling their way to the top are just trying harder. The rest of the folks either just do as much crafting as they ever did or they've given up because the system is oppressive. If you don't know a single player of Illarion who doesn't bother with skills or coin because it's too much of a hassle, then you're apparently playing a different game than everyone else.

And that's a problem. Every time a player gives up on the system, it's effecting the ingame economy for everyone else. That's one less person who will add gold to the economy. That's one less person who will buy your crafts. That's one less person who will go into the dungeons and kill the critters and bring back those treasures to sell to everyone else. That's just the economy stagnating just a wee bit more.

It's also a problem that it creates the paranoia and bitterness within the community that causes you to say that you "hate" when other folks "skillgrind." I don't see how it's anyone's business how a person uses the game as long as they're following the rules and not bothering you about how you play the game.

To my mind, I've always considered disruptive rp much worse than no rp. And if that powergamer isn't pking people (a rules violation that gets you banned) and he's not being a disruptive rper, then I don't see how his skills could be bothering anyone. Then isn't it disruptive rp that's the problem and not what their skills are?

And if all our limits are the same, then you would see things flip flop. The players like you who speak of fear of powergamers would want skills to be able to be GMed very quickly, and the powergamers would want skills to take a long, slow build, so that they can take advantage of their dedication and the time on their hands to beat you to the cap. And ultimately that's what I find funny when I see these kinds of arguments. Skills taking longer to build only really advantage those who are willing to work hard for those skills (your powergamers).

I don't mean to pick on you, Hadrian, but I think your response shows a lack of critical thinking and possibley a bit of naivety about the options out there and how it's been done in different games.

[Faladron]

Aegohl, no.

A skill cap like that is completely unnecessary. Did you recently hear of any "I can all" characters, that have been banished because of powergaming?

Well guess what, I did not, so people seem to act responsible and reasonable regarding which skills they let their characters develop over time.

People that go at the game thinking "My character has to be a master of all!"
drop out rather quickly, and most of the other players think enough about their character, a background, some aims and goals credible and then "skill up" accordingly.

Why do you want to install restrictions to solve problems that do not exist?
Just because other games might have something like that *cough* Uuh... *cough* Oooh... *cough* doesn't mean Illarion needs it too.

I agree, with you though, skills are HARD to gain right now, and that's what scares most people off, as you said correctly, I just do not think a skill cap as you suggest it, would change that problem.

It would rather increase economical problems:
Currently about every craftsman tries to be a smith because that's where the money's at. Assuming a skill cap of your suggestion has been established, that won't change the fact that only smiths (and to some extend carpenters) can earn any coin decently.
This would result in most people deciding to spend their skillcap on combat skills and crafts like smithing or carpentry, in the end nobody would want to "waste" skill points for crafts of lesser usability like glassblowing.

This would result in even less people in the economy working on certain crafts than there are right now, it would even lower your chance to find a glassblower online if you need one and overall decrease the number of people contributing to the economy by meddling with "lesser trades", that do not pay off such as smithing or carpentry. I do not think that is what you want, but that's one of the things that will happen if you just throw in a skillcap like that.

[Aegohl]

A skill cap like that is completely unnecessary. Did you recently hear of any "I can all" characters, that have been banished because of powergaming?

They've never been banning people at Illarion for powergaming, especially not now. In fact, in the history of Illarion you'll find that more folks have been banned because they were obnoxious or because Deinarious told a GM that they were Grant Rothman than anything even remotely related to powergaming.

Why do you want to install restrictions to solve problems that do not exist?
Just because other games might have something like that *cough* Uuh... *cough* Oooh... *cough* doesn't mean Illarion needs it too.

I'm not sure what all the coughing and grunting is about. I'd guess you're just short of breath from touching yourself, which is alright. I'll grant you that I'm very sexy.

Your argument is hypocritical. The "skill cap" of Illarion is a restriction that even the folks who were arguing for it above admit doesn't solve the problem that it intends to fix.

If indeed there isn't a problem where folks are irresponsibly gaining skill, then again I don't see how what I'm arguing is a restriction. Sounds like a feature, since you'd be able to actively control where your skill points go.

And, darling, you really have to get over me. I'd only break your heart.

It would rather increase economical problems:
Currently about every craftsman tries to be a smith because that's where the money's at. Assuming a skill cap of your suggestion has been established, that won't change the fact that only smiths (and to some extend carpenters) can earn any coin decently.
This would result in most people deciding to spend their skillcap on combat skills and crafts like smithing or carpentry, in the end nobody would want to "waste" skill points for crafts of lesser usability like glassblowing.

A lot of that seems to be issues of game balance that exist well beyond the scope of what I'm trying to talk about here. I'll grant you that you're on to something and if you reason out what that is you might come up with some ideas that might help Illarion, but I think you're currently placing blame on the wrong parts of the system.

However, I can accept if what you're saying is that if such a system were tossed in haphazardly the effects might be dangerous, but that never stopped any of the other awkwardly developed things that have happened in Illarion history. =)

(and yes, *grunt* *fap* *oooh!* *yeah* *gasp* the game is a great example of what I'm speaking well-implemented, in fact. However, it's not the *only* example, and you'll find that many other mmorpg's have some portion of such a thing in their system.

Hell, you'll even find pay mmorpg's out there that use a 'skill cap' like Illarion uses, although it's never anywhere near as harsh and unbending.

I find the idea ultimately ridiculous to use mechanics of the game to enforce the style of play expected by the developers, ie.. roleplay. This must be the reason the rules tend to be entirely overlooked and the punishments are instead doled out to the slightly annoying.)

[Faladron]

<3

I feel the love. Both for me and the Devs. Relieing on making fun of your "discussion opposite" doesn't realy make your points more reasonable than they already are.

I understand what you try to say without joking around on my expenses so please refrain from doing so in the future.

[Kaila Galathil Travinus]

Having played a game similar with an actual skill cap as described by Aegohl, I heartely agree:

Ultimately, the "skill cap" that Illarion has doesn't stop what you're suggesting it stops. In fact, the people who were already previously skilling their way to the top are just trying harder. The rest of the folks either just do as much crafting as they ever did or they've given up because the system is oppressive. If you don't know a single player of Illarion who doesn't bother with skills or coin because it's too much of a hassle, then you're apparently playing a different game than everyone else.

My crafter char rarely crafts, only as necessary for RP, she is my oldest char and has only one or two skills above tourquoise. My fighter char "trains" when wants or there is RP involved, my mage char "trains" when RPing. The skills are too hard to reach and I have no fun ig even trying them.

I find the idea ultimately ridiculous to use mechanics of the game to enforce the style of play expected by the developers, ie.. roleplay

I could care less if another char has top skills in everything, that is their RP and it doesn't bother me. However, if the game was more evened out... a point skill cap with chars "picking" some for their chosen profession would be fairer... as it is now...eventually, if chars are around long enough, there will again be too many with top skills....... the game will again have to be "adjusted" to make sure others don't have that..... the thought behind it now is just causing a never-ending "fix" and adjustment.

PS.. Nitram is wonderful!

[Lord Arcia]

I say leave the skill gain alone. No skill cap. If a person wants to power game for 5 years to get maxed in every skill...more power to them. That's their reward for playing/skilling for so long.

[War]

If I dare be so bold, can we put in a poll for this topic with the following options?

-Take out the Skillcap in its entirety.
-Leave in the Skillcap as it is.
-Replace the Skillcap with something more suitable.

[Lance Thunnigan]

If I dare be so bold, can we put in a poll for this topic with the following options?

-Take out the Skillcap in its entirety.
-Leave in the Skillcap as it is.
-Replace the Skillcap with something more suitable.

[Cliu Beothach]

<3

I feel the love. Both for me and the Devs. Relieing on making fun of your "discussion opposite" doesn't realy make your points more reasonable than they already are.

I understand what you try to say without joking around on my expenses so please refrain from doing so in the future.

Adding a little spice to life never hurt anyone.

[Nitram]

The Skill stuff needs some balacing. Thats correct. But its completly unneeded to remove or change the skill / skillcap stuff completly.

No poll needed.

Nitram

[Conquest]

The Skill stuff needs some balacing. Thats correct. But its completly unneeded to remove or change the skill / skillcap stuff completly.

No poll needed.

Nitram

Nitram, I would revert all your and the staff's work to the point before the new client just to have no skill cap. Even if it would erase all the character data, all the map data, all the monster data, all the crafting data, everything. Just.. No.. Skillcap.

[Deinarious]

I personally think skillcaps are wonderful things and, if I could, would implement one in the MUD I'm working on, but the developers of the MudMaker system haven't implemented that yet...I think they may be working on doors or something right now. Don't know.

[Conquest]

I personally think skillcaps are wonderful things and, if I could, would implement one in the MUD I'm working on, but the developers of the MudMaker system haven't implemented that yet...I think they may be working on doors or something right now. Don't know.

Way to disagree with me for the sake of disagreeing with me, you **** Deleted - Arien -

[Loralyn]

Do not EVER use that word on these forums again.

[Cliu Beothach]

I remember when, I think Hermie (could be mistaken), posted it.

[Deinarious]

It should be replaced with a much friendlier word that would make no sense in the sentence it was used in...May I suggest hedgehog?

[Lord Arcia]

It should be replaced with a much friendlier word that would make no sense in the sentence it was used in...May I suggest hedgehog?

Lulz

[Nitram]

It appears I did not say it clear enougth. Sorry.

In clear english:

Proposal rejected.

Nitram