Domestic Animal Raising

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Wed Feb 19, 2003 11:48 pm

overcrowding aint going to be a problem, only a bored person who has mastered every skill is going to want to take an hour to breed a darn pig, cmon, seriously.

Loki Feuerhaar · Post by **Loki Feuerhaar** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 12:21 am

Loki Feuerhaar wrote:It sure can be fastenend at the desire of the players, grain grows fast too.
It was just to show in which form i think the system shall run.

Well, seriously, Gro'Bul you should learn read a bit better. It was just my posting before that i used the hour-system to show how i shall work.
Sometimes i even ask myself why i brother to make something as clear as i can.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 1:28 am

@Niniane No, I disagree I do not think paul laffing has hit on anything much. Read my reply to Paul in response to the fears of "overcrowding"
@Paul Overcrowding would not happen. As Loki insightfully pointed out we have very little people online at any given time and only a few of them would be farmers anyway. As well, it takes time to "Breed". Remember this would be a skill. Hard to learn as all other skills, and much failure involved. Do you see the island covered with grain crops (there are a lot of farmers you know)? Of course not. As well, you forget that even the successful breeding that produced more animals the animals would not stay alive for too long...First of all, as for all crafts a profit is in mind and the idea of breeding the animals is for the farmer to make soem profit. So say a farmer breeds a pig and gets more pigs. What does he do? Either he kills them after they are grown for the leather and meat, he sells it to another person, or (if possible in the future) sell it to the NPC for money as you do with all items.
@Loki Good points. What do you have in mind concerning your stables idea?

As well, to help overcome these fears of "overcrowding" I would like to propose yet another thing. As all living things live there must also be a time of death. I propose that as with all living things animals should have a life span as well. So after a little time they should age and well die. Just as this is planned for the player characters (life and then death) I suggest it go into planning that animals too have a life span.
-Elaralith

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 1:30 am

Loki, don't flame him. He has a point... sort of.

Anyway, another problem i encountered as i thought this through. And i really have thought this through because if there were any problems, it wouldn't work, with something as complicated as this. Okay, so lets say someone has an animal. He stops to roleplay, and 15 minutes pass. By the time he realizes it, one or two of his animals has died. How much of a waste is that? That is certainly neither fun nor realistic.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 1:36 am

What do you mean stopped to roleplay? A person should be roleplaying every second he is playing illarion. He should already be roleplaying when he is breeding the animals if that is what he is doing. If he is careless enough as a farmer to go chat with someone and let his poor animals die of disease, hunger, wild animals etc. that is his fault.

Niniane · Post by **Niniane** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 2:54 am

Since nobody had covered the reasons for why overcrowding would not take place before Paul pointed it out he was doing right in bringing up the subject. A few more points to be thought of that need to be before this is even considered:

What about the wild animals to begin with? There are a finite number to start with and if one is tamed then it is taken out of this pool. If three or four or however many are taken now then there will be none for other potential tamers to tame at least until the first tamer has raised one generation and the parent dies, creating one more to be tamed. Would there be more initial animals in the wilderness or would the number remain the same? If there are more then overcrowding is somewhat more of a problem depending on how many more are created.

Why would the animals in the wild not die while animals in captivity die? They could both obtain food for themselves, and the life span of a captive animal shouldn't be 1 hour while a wild one is a few illarion years basically if not disturbed. If the lifespan of the wild animals were shortened to a relative time then the tamers would surely experience animals dying right there when they're trying to tame them. The same goes for someone trying to sheer the sheep. Now this brings up the point of animal maturity.

You can't sheer a baby sheep or butcher an extremely old sheep for meet. The meat wouldn't be as good and the same goes for a pig. You can't get the same amount of money for baby pigskin as for an adult because of the size differential. If the animal lives for only an hour then you would have to have different stages within that hour where an animal is a baby and then able to reproduce and then too old to do anything other than eat. So you would only have a certain window within the already small window in which you could breed the animals as well.

What about the animals in the animal pens? How many could fit in each one? There would have to be some area for them to walk or they would in fact die, and if the building was a reasonable size then there could only be a few actual animals and therefore animal trainers inside. Another issue to think about is that if the animals are dying of old age because of neglect on the part of the farmer then there are going to be rotten carcasses in the area which would bring rodents, as well as deadly diseases to illarion. I know this is a little over the top but it would be realistic and this seems to be the direction we're trying to go. All options have to be considered, not just the ones that look pretty.

I realize the 1 hour limit was only a suggestion and I only used it as a reference here as well. These are just some more things to think about on this subject.

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 3:13 am

from what i gather, either the animals overcrowd the island, or all die before anything happens. Is this correct?

Anyway, how about this. You can get pigs from the wild, where they regenerate when you take them. Your animals don't die until you kill them, but can only breed once. This also eliminates the need for stables. When it gives birth, it has fifteen or thirty minutes to live. Something like that. That way, no overpopulation or underpopulation.

@elaralith I personally took your entire post as a flame, as it had no useful information. Also, it shows you have no comprehension of the argument.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 3:48 am

@Paul Oh I am sorry dear that I heard your oh so sensitive feelings. Perhaps you should see a psychiatrist to mend those hurt feelings.

And no what you stated is not at all correct. Read what others write please.
@Niniane When I proposed that animals have a life span that means that all animals ... not just domesticated ones. You are right you cant shear a baby sheep or butcher a baby pig for leather...I realized that and discussed it earlier...After a successful breeding a farmer would have to give time for the new animals to grow. Just like with crops. The life of a farmer needs patience and this applies with this "Breeding" skill as well. As for the "finite number" of wild animals. We just say the animals are "domesticated" while they are being breeded. But technically they have the same attributes as all other wild animals. And after breeding the farmer can continue to try to produce new animals with the same old one or he can let it go in which case the old animal would naturally just walk away randomly like all the other wild animals. And the animals woud not die out....they keep getting spawned remember?

Salathe · Post by **Salathe** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 4:29 am

SO if i raised some pigs, what exactly do i do with them, sell there meat or skin? Or sell the pig to an NPC farmer. If you sell what they drop, then what is the point of breeding them if you can just jump into the wild and stab one?

Pigs should run away from everyone they see, and the tame skill is used to lure the pig to you.

Will all pigs be put hidden into the wild?

PS sorry if someone has already said this, i have read everything posted but its so long i cant really remember everything that was said

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 2:14 pm

Elaralith wrote:@Paul Oh I am sorry dear that I heard your oh so sensitive feelings. Perhaps you should see a psychiatrist to mend those hurt feelings. And no what you stated is not at all correct. Read what others write please.

Someone tell me this is not an insult. I guess i shall just have to be the bigger man

and ignore her comments.

Anywayz, how about if you can sell the pigs for something like 10... maybe 25 gold? That seems like a fair price, although it does seem a little low for all the time is takes

. And what does everyone think of my idea? (elaralith: don't answer if your just going to flame)

Salathe · Post by **Salathe** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 3:48 pm

well we dont know how long it will take to raise pigs, do we even know if this will be implemented?? Well lets take dylucks time for example, if it is that then i say it should be 100+ gold, keep in mind that the pigs will rarely breed when your skill is low, and it will be hard to raise this skill

i think that pigs should have different quality. If you dont feed your pig as much then it is low and will sell for less money, and high quality pigs breeded by an experienced breeder and gets taken care od well will be worth more

what do you guys think?

Loki Feuerhaar · Post by **Loki Feuerhaar** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 6:25 pm

Salathe,
I did not find a single posting of Dyluck in this Topic, to whom do you refer?

Also i dont think there is much sense of talking about a price for a pig, cow or whatever you tame and breed.
First of all there has to be a functional system, after that you can suggest prices for these cows, chickens and pigs.

Elaralith, you asked me about stables.
I think a stable can be a simply areay surrounded by fances and an attached bulding (maybe only decorative or with needfull tools).
The space that has been surrounded by the fances sets the number of supported animals, due every animal needs at least 1 field.
Maybe larger Animals like cows or horses need 2 fields.
I think that would be a good way to define a limit for the stable.

Loki

Salathe · Post by **Salathe** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 6:47 pm

heh, i meant you, sorry

Serpardum · Post by **Serpardum** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 8:49 pm

paul laffing wrote:
Elaralith wrote:@Paul Oh I am sorry dear that I heard your oh so sensitive feelings. Perhaps you should see a psychiatrist to mend those hurt feelings. And no what you stated is not at all correct. Read what others write please.
Someone tell me this is not an insult. I guess i shall just have to be the bigger man and ignore her comments.

I consider it an insult also, but please ignore it.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 1:40 am

@Paul Please don't act like the innocent "victim" that is being insulted-it is sickening. Do you want to know why I replied like I did. Do you see me replying to others that disagree with my ideas getting similar replies-no. Take a look at what you posted.

@elaralith I personally took your entire post as a flame, as it had no useful information. Also, it shows you have no comprehension of the argument.

Basically you insulted me personally, and my post. I believe I was pretty nice in responding to that kind of insult in the way I did.
@Separdum You know what? You should stop focusing in on me and my so called "flames" and take a look around at what is happening to cause it.
@Loki Good idea, but I don't think there is enough room in the "illarion island" right now to have that kidn of building...Perhaps instead item a player could carry could take the place of a stable. Ideas?

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 4:28 am

[quote="paul laffing"]Anyway, how about this. You can get pigs from the wild, where they regenerate when you take them. Your animals don't die until you kill them, but can only breed once. This also eliminates the need for stables. When it gives birth, it has fifteen or thirty minutes to live. Something like that. That way, no overpopulation or underpopulation.
[quote]

With my idea, there is no need for stables.

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 5:14 am

Puts on a smug smile

Naturally us hobbits' would be natural born farmers. Tis in our blood, our ancestors farmed, and so did their's. There be nothing I likes more than sitting in a field drinking ale watching my plants grow.

___________

But breeding shouldnt be a skill really, animals breed on their own by their natural instinct. All farmer do is feed and look after their flocks and cattle. I think the situation is fine as it is, and that there are more important things that would come before this. And stables would only be used with horses. Oh, and domestic animals are more like pets, i.e. dogs and cats

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 5:35 am

@Paul Animal life span->basically what I said. I don't like the thing about an animal being able to breed only once though. Animals as long as they live and are of adult age should be able to breed. With the life span implementation for animals there is no need for a "one breed only" thing for animals. The life span would prevent overpopulation even should every player in illarion breed at the same time. And remember we have a very small amount of players anyways at any given time...Overpopulation-stop worrying about it. It's not a concern right now.
@Hermie Animals breed on their own true. But for them to be able to breed frequently and successfully a farmer needs to come in and work. That is why a "Breeding" skill is a good idea. By the way, domesticated animals does not just include pets only...domesticated animals is a wide category that includes all animals that "man" have tamed and use. So horses, pigs, and sheep would fall into this category, as well.

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 5:42 am

We dont really need to be able to breed animals, I think having horses and stables would be better to have, as animals already re-produce after death. What does a farmer do to actually make his animals breed better?

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 7:06 am

can i ask why these animals must respawn in the wild? why not just have a farmer npc who sell baby livestock, take chicken for example, you could make a "chicken coop" a small building that after you buy your chickens they are transferred there, its sort of a depot type of thing where there are squares for your livestock, you can add food,water and so forth to aid their developement, meanwhile, if you leave your livestock alone (and to my knowlage most species dont like a different species standing around watching them breed) and over time a chicken will die and the slot it was in it will show a "dead chicken" if they breed succesfully and you check the coop then there will be an "egg" in one of the slots, the amount of slots regulates the amount of livestock,we dont have animals running around the island, and we dont have animals followind their masters around like zombies. tis a very conventional and low detail system but if there is going to be a livestock system this early in the game's developement, this seems to be the only way to controll ALL factors of the process, if there is something i left out missed, didnt talk about dont put me down, suggest...

Serpardum · Post by **Serpardum** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 9:08 pm

Comment on last post:
There is not going to be a livestock system this early in the game's development.

But, this is not neccessarily a bad idea to have, and I"ve played other games that had raising live stock successfully.

I think this thread should continue with input and feedback and there are some interesting ideas being brought up that may, in one fashion or another, one day be implemented.

Serpardum · Post by **Serpardum** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 9:14 pm

Elaralith wrote:...
@elaralith I personally took your entire post as a flame, as it had no useful information. Also, it shows you have no comprehension of the argument.
...@Separdum You know what? You should stop focusing in on me and my so called "flames" and take a look around at what is happening to cause it.

Well, yes, I considered Paul Laffing's post rather insulting also.

But you didn't ask us/me if we/I considered it an insult. Paul did.

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 9:28 pm

Gro'bul! I think your idea is brilliant!

It gets rid of overpopulation. The only thing i don't like is the npc selling the livestock. I'm trying to think of a better way.

How about if you can find eggs or baby animals randomly or off of monsters. That would create more player interaction as people have to buy livestock off of other people. Also, how about being able to breed fish in captivity? I would love that.

John Laffing · Post by **John Laffing** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 10:15 pm

There is one problem with breeding fish in captivity though. The fish can't be seen in the water now, so how will you be able to see them when you have to breed them? Also, how would you breed them; would you put them in your own fish tank?

Don't take these as offensive, but they are just some problems that will have to be changed, if fish breeding was to become part of Illarion. (I like the idea too).

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 11:11 pm

Animals need farmer intervention to breed domestically because without farmer intervention they would breed true but then the babies would run wild and not be tame and useful for people.
@Separdum I realize that I didn't "put up a poll" like Paul did...I don't do that kind of thing, as in my opinion such comments "gets people annoyed" and don't belong in the forums for public viewing.
Of course, this I realize this may not be implemented any time soon. But then again that is what proposals are: ideas for the future.
@John I think that "breeding fishes" should not be a skill. Fish are a whole different matter from animals. Fish cannot be "bred" in the sense a horse can be. If you read a bit about how fish reproduce you will understand. On the bright side, we could have fish farms that farmers could make. Places where fish are gathered for easy gathering and where the fish reproduce rapidly.'
@Hermie Well, read what I posted and see if you change your mind.

Caranthir the great · Fri Feb 21, 2003 11:12 pm

I think that fihses were not bred in the way they are nowdays, they just..Fished.

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Sat Feb 22, 2003 12:19 am

It sounds more like taming animals, rather than breeding them, so I think I will stick to what I had said previously.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Sat Feb 22, 2003 1:16 am

@Hermie, the way in which we all are using the word "Breeding" is defined as being the taming/domesticating and reproduction of an animal by a farmer.
@Caranthir, oh there were fish farms alright...certainly they didn't have all the technology we have today like scientifically enhanced fish food that makes the fish grow faster and bigger...but they had fish farms where they bred fish.

paul laffing · Post by **paul laffing** » Sat Feb 22, 2003 3:05 am

Elaralith wrote:Fish cannot be "bred" in the sense a horse can be. If you read a bit about how fish reproduce you will understand.

I don't have to read how fish reproduce because i have a fish tank that is well stocked and John used to. To get the fish to breed, there should be a depot-like object where you can put fish, leave them for several weeks with food like cabbage (many fish like lettuce, a food similar to cabbage)(gives a new role to cabbage), and they will breed. A little less complicated than real fish breeding, but you get the basic idea.

I think that fihses were not bred in the way they are nowdays, they just..Fished.

aaaah, then you have not heard of the japanese gardens or koi fish? Very famous. In fact, i believe most goldfish today were bred by the japanese from koi.

Roke · Post by **Roke** » Sat Feb 22, 2003 4:19 am

The difference to what you are saying Paul and what Elaralith is saying is you are talking about pet fish while Elaralith is talking about the larger, fresh-water or salt-water fish which are large enough to eat and taste good... mmm, I can just taste some salmon right now, with a nice dill... anyways. Fish cannot be bred and then released into the wild, they would have to be kept in separate tanks. There are ways to raise fish, but those ways are basically like the fish farms in British Columbia, Canada as well as many other places.

For fish to reproduce the female, I believe (for salmon anyways. or trout, one of the two) lays eggs on the ground. A male then comes along and releases some fertilizer substance which fertilizes the eggs and allows them to grow. With a horse though, you can just get a male and a female together during mating season and eventually you should have some little horses.

Edit: note: This stuff about fish farms is for general information, I have read that they have been discussed, well commented about.