Discussion: Complicated = Fun?

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:09 pm

This is a discussion post I wanted to make for a while, but now that I had the chance to try a new character, I'm going to post it now.

In the (not so long ago) old days, crafting was a very simple procedure. Lets take carpentry for example, you had 2 main tools (plane and carving tools). If you wanted to make staves or long pointy things you'd simple grab a saw, saw off some branches off a cherry tree, and there and then start making the staff or whatnot. There were two more kinds of wood, and some items would need one or the other. Simple. Aside from shields and bows/arrows you only needed that wood.

Taking cooking as another example, if you wanted to make bread you would grab some flour, add water to it and get dough, and use a cooking spoon to cook it over a fire. Simple.
---

Nowadays if you want to make something with carpentry you have Conifer Wood, Cherry wood, Apple Wood, (Naldor Wood?), branches, boughs ....

You start working on some nice staff, then you stop half way because you need nails, then you stop because you need pins and cotters (or whatever), then you realise that you actually need to paint the staff before you can use it, so you need dye...

Doesn't this seem... excessive to anyone? Oh and remember you need a CARPENTRY TABLE nowadays...

Lets taking cooking again...
If you want to make bread you need to grind the grain into flour, and you need a Small wooden shovel [1] to do so. Turn the flour into dough using a bucket [2], and a rolling pin [3] (only in front of an oven), and then use another tool (forgot its name) [4] to cook the dough into bread.

If you want to make something which isn't bread, you need also a cooking spoon [5].

There we are, 5 tools for a single profession, and obviously if you're taking farming you'll be needing the normal farming tools and a nice sickle to go with it. Remember that you'll only start with 110 coppers, and you actaually need to buy seeds...
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Does anyone else see this as being rather excessive? Rather draining of the fun factor of the game? Instead of just enjoying the game you need to actually WORK to make something (you not the character).

I am not against having something 'special' (for example using wood X will make your staff last longer, using wood Y will make them hurt more ect...) choices are good, but being forced into a complicated thing like this is not fun at all...

Anyone else agree?

Discuss.

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:15 pm

The system before the new client was the way I liked it. It was a system that was there that didn't cut too much into RP. I could roleplay and craft within the same day and felt like I did something fun in both aspects.

Harald Hradradr · Post by **Harald Hradradr** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:16 pm

Well, can not really tell if the other system was good since i am used to the 'new' one and am happy about it. You should realize that you can not make anything right from the start. You want to play a crafter? Fine, you need to work as a crafter since that is you chosen path. With the new beginner packages you will have every tool needed for a good start (go, browse through them). Guess you are just used to the old system and one never feels all to comfortable to bother with a new one.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:18 pm

Harald Hradradr wrote:Well, can not really tell if the other system was good since i am used to the 'new' one and am happy about it. You should realize that you can not make anything right from the start.

I beleive you misunderstood me totally. My complaint is how complicated it has become, needing lots of tools and lots of different resources and a particular static tool, as opposed to the [not so] old days when you only needed your tools, and you could happily craft stuff without needing to buy dye, leather and the like while talking in front of a fire.

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:32 pm

Anyone else agree?

*raises hand and ducks not to get hit by rotten tomatoes thrown by (:roll:)*

The system itself is fine, the needed ressources sometimes (:shock:). Blue dye for a shield, make my day

.

I still remember the (crappy) crafting system where you could smith in the middle of a corn field and needed exactly one tool to gather two ressources to smith all items available with the 2nd tool. Not that I think it was a better state (hell no!), but it was fun.

Harald Hradradr · Post by **Harald Hradradr** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:32 pm

You were complaining about the tools a new crafter can hardly affort too, weren't you?
Anyways, I never understood why the hell I should not be able to craft say a plate without a carpentry workbench or the dough thing. That one really is annoying since I can not remeber to need an oven in rl to make dough.

But the point really is, that you are used to the old times and I to the new. But then again, I for myself, love it when things become more complicated or mre complex (if logical).

Mr. Cromwell · Post by **Mr. Cromwell** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:38 pm

Instead of a 'need' for a crafting bench, the bench should possibly give normal quality, whereas working without a bench gives on average much lower quality items. So it wouldn't be something that is 'forced', but rather.. 'strongly encouraged'.

(which reminds me, that I maybe should do something to get those carpentery tables put to some other, less crowded place than the shop. Whoever put those there..

)

I would like to cook some simple food in the forest on an open fire, kthxbai. No cooking pots or whatever involved, just a pan or a stick and some meat on it.

ogerawa · Post by **ogerawa** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:55 pm

The only thing i feel kind of troublesome is the number of type of materials needed per item. Some needed more than 5 kind of materials especially cooking. Troublesome cause the belt where the script look at for materials to use only has 6 slots (1 is used for the item being work on).

So far... my only hope would be 5 is the maximum number of type of materials. For example steak dish currently we need: 1 plate, 1 bucket of water, 2 tomatoes, 1 onion, 1 bread, 2 steaks. That's a total of 6 type of materials. It would be nice to discard one of the ingredient and put it into other ingdredient. Maybe discard bread and make it 2 onions instead. Something like that i guess.

PS: there is a meat dish that needs 10 type of materials.... -.-"

Drathe · Post by **Drathe** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:33 pm

Dare I say I like the new crafting system, well carpentry is all I can speak for. Yes it is a little more involved but I don't find with this particular craft too much so. Much of it makes logical sense and with a little help from a player or two

BUT in combination with the extra involvement of the new system I do find the skill cap infuriating. Cut a few trees down, saw some wood and that is your lot... Again I personally am simply not going to craft anymore until I can gain skill for it so its a long wait until I craft anything. I'm putting the 'work' into this I want everything out of it. I am not a power gamer but I will and do wait and I am not ashamed to say that. I also find the client slow. When your in the 'zone' crafting away going to and from the depot the times you drag and drop only to do it 3 or 4 times as you have not quite got it in the box or you were to quick with the mouse... or is it just me? I find all this together does make it tedious and if you have a bulk order to full fill... *pures his lips*

I guess what I am trying to say is I like the new system but its dragged out by technical influences

Fooser · Post by **Fooser** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:58 pm

Answer to the topic title: no

AlexRose · Post by **AlexRose** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:02 pm

Fooser wrote:Answer to the topic title: no

/signed

Miklorius · Post by **Miklorius** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:28 pm

All in all I like the actual system! It is right that the mass of needed resources can be annoying (I made lists which things I need for an item), but it is okay for the most time - but the force to paint your item is really a bit, well:

.

The thing that annoys me the most was the force to use static tools always. I like Cromwell's idea, that some items can be made without static tools, but on a lower quality.

PS: And items which only need one or two types of resources should be automatically made until you have no resources anymore.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:31 pm

*sigh* Having that problem currently trying to make bread rolls

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:13 pm

May I assume it is consensus that the system itself is the best we had ever but some things are a bit "overdone"? Concerning the static tools, this also has something to do with game design. The developers wanted to create hot spots, places where one can find other characters to interact with. Workshops are such hot spots. Also, by buying static tools for your settlement, you can attract certain types of crafters and some money gets drawn out of the system. There are many pros for static tools, of course, there are contras, too. All in all, the general assumption of the crafting system are close to what I call perfect and I think there are few MMORPGs with such a convincing crafting system.

Nevertheless, whoever did the assignments which goods are needed to craft a certain item was a bit overzealous. But I am sure this can be changed when somebody compiles a fitting list, no?

PS: By the way, I did not mention that I ran into like a dozend bugs during crafting. Lots of work for our devs...

Vern Kron · Post by **Vern Kron** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:37 pm

I got a question about this though...what is a cotter? Are pins usually used for making a staff? I figured you could just carve the top onto the handle..

Lets see, my latest project is a clerical staff. You get the bough, and carve that, then you need the handle, then you need pins, ((and if you try to make more than five you have to remember to move the pins into a bag so you do not end up losing them)) then you need yellow die, and probably something beyond that. The pins really doesn't make sense to me...I can understand pins in shields to hold the leather, but I still don't see its uses in staves...oh well.

Achae Eanstray · Post by **Achae Eanstray** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:44 pm

AlexRose wrote:
Fooser wrote:Answer to the topic title: no
/signed

Also agree, and the "hot spots" used to be the depot... now you usually see one maybe two chars go off to an isolated workbench. (guess you can tell I liked the old system better

)