No engine death/creation of OOC GM council (auch in deutsch)

[Llama]

I beleive he means something along the lines of:

ABC and XYZ are fighting. ABC runs out of HP, so he gets some sort of marker on him, he loses some attributes temporarily, but he doesn't have to run for a cross, and he doesn't lose anything permanently (or drop stuff).

That way, everyone will know who wins, but nobody will really lose anything.

[abcfantasy]

"abc lies, i had still half of my health"...

Why must you name me for the example?

[Llama]

"abc lies, i had still half of my health"...

Why must you name me for the example?

Because we all know maltese people are liars...

[Nitram]

all similarities to exsisting persons are randomly.



Nitram

[Retlak]

I beleive pharse suggested in the proposial, that when health reaches a certain point a forced emote happens. So people DO end up losing.

[HolyKnight]

I still think they should drop there stuff there is no [smiling] way that if you are mortally wounded that you would be able to stop someone from getting some of your things.

[Miklorius]

The current death system needs tuning, especially how to play ghosting.

At the moment I would play that ghosts are really ghosts/souls, which get their body back from the gods at crosses. You are wounded/weak and and are free to play as heavy wounded or not so wounded to jump in a fight again (which you will probably lose because of attribute/skill lowering).

To pharse's idea: I absolutely don't like the idea of OOC made story lines about winners and losers - it took the initiative away from the players. Larger battles were then more like wrestling events (winner ist already set).

General problem is difference between PvP and PvE; if there are no ghosts anymore and you get knocked down to the ground (a concept I still like), you are doomed when dying between monsters.

Some points HolyKnight said are good for further discussions.

PS: There were a lot of ideas about a improved death system here one month ago!

[pharse]

**Hab im ersten Post hiervon etwas übersetzt unter "Wie?"**

I beleive pharse suggested in the proposial, that when health reaches a certain point a forced emote happens. So people DO end up losing.

exactly. There could be a forced emote which indicates that the char reached this certain health level. So the engine still decides who gets first this emote but actually the players decide who wins the fight (e.g. if it doesn't fit in the storyline), or actually the winner of the fight decides it. If the loser refuses to lose, that is "bad behaviour" and is to be reported to a GM.

Now the technical part.
When the engine notices that a char is "dead", there is a forced emote. Now I suggest that the use of the 'alt' and 'ctrl' button are restricted (actually it is only necessary that no damage can be dealt and no XP can be gained) and of course the char can't lose more hitpoints.
I also suggest that the attributes are all set to 1 until the char visites a holy place (yellow cross), is resurrected (priests) or is attended (druids). (temporal skill decrease is also possible) Then the same script like now is invoked, ending with the "feel reborn" message.
Best would be if the monsters could check if the char is "dead" and don't attack those (no idea if possible)....that is a weak point in this proposal.


Now what is with those players who have uber-skilled chars, with wich they always 'technically' win, and do never voluntarily lose?
* Pity that they exist... but here the GM council idea jumps in.

Firstly, every group will be forced to lose and win from time to time, not every single fight but in general. So everyone gets a sense of achievement which is of course important for the player's mood. Additionally everyone knows that there IS a storyline and the next 'overall' win will come certainly. It promotes the feeling that we all play together, so such a misfitting event loses its severity....(quite difficult to explain especiall in English, but I hope you get what I mean).

Secondly, if such events get out of hand, GM council intervention is needed. The players have to adjust their roleplay for the public welfare, thus loyalty to the leaders becomes more important. If necessary some IC reasons can be created like a curse etc by which the char doesn't leave His/her role.
In worst case this trouble maker has to be punished with GM means.


Of course this whole proposal is not 100% sure, but it is like every other work with people. You can't be prepared for anything possible. But I think it will help us to move together.

Note that those ideas are not fixed at all. Bring in better proposals!

--

OOC made story lines about winners and losers - it took the initiative away from the players.

Nobody said that those storylines are fixed. Here and there they can be changed, but for really good IC reasons. Those all-day-heroes are no fun at all for most players. They can't solve it on their own -> control is needed. Perhaps you have noticed that this idea is extremely utilitarian. But it is only a game, so best fun for most persons should be our aim (of course add a pinch of fairness, so the same players won't always be harmed).
And actually most players wouldn't know how the story ends, only members of the GM council.

[Lance Thunnigan]

I like the proposal actually.
If there is a way to implement.. I think it should be.

[Nitram]

I guess this is what can be called "dirty replacement for a unconscious system"

I don't like it really, since this will cause i real amount of trouble i fear. Some persons will just ignore the emote and run away or something. Even if the one who wins, wants to knock him down to arrest him or something like that.

Nitram

[Llama]

A problem I could think of is NPCs, and a perhaps easy to abuse bug which involves "We're going to die, here, let me [insert pseudo-roleplay equivalent word] so we can get out without them touching us".

Another problem is bandits and guards. You can't kick a person out of town unless you do some real damage to him.

Perhaps this system would have worked in ye olde days when everyone (almost) was a roelplayer. Nowadays I dont think people would accept this system without the need of a few bannings.

[pharse]

Nowadays I dont think people would accept this system without the need of a few bannings.

No problem with that.

Some persons will just ignore the emote and run away or something. Even if the one who wins, wants to knock him down to arrest him or something like that.

In particular some things will never change, because what you described is already case, isn't it? Just replace forced emote with clouding.

This proposal goes beyond the plain replacement of an "unconsciousness system". An obligatory storyline and strict punishments (if constantly disregarding the rules) goes along with it.

[AlexRose]

I still think they should drop there stuff there is no [smiling] way that if you are mortally wounded that you would be able to stop someone from getting some of your things.

You emote searching their body.

[Greisling]

One comment to Pharse: It took me quite a long time to understand what you want to achieve with this posting and what this is all about. Sort of introducing text would have made it much more easier to understand your intention.


Anyway, I do not like the proposed idea of a sort of GM/Player-Court for two reasons:
- There simply are not enough GMs/POs available who are able to do so in an adequate way.
- It takes away flexibility and spontanety out of the game.


I have another proposal instead. Before explaining it I want to point out some general thoughts about...

Clouding

• 1. Ultimate consequence
  Currently, the worst thing that can happen to any character in game is to get clouded. It is the ultimate power one has over others characters. There is nothing we as players can do more against other characters than that. It currently is the ultimate consequence.
• 2. Noone likes to get clouded
  The consequences of getting clouded are: The clouded character looses skill, items, temporarily attributes AND he is forced to accept the roleplay of someone else (the murderer). Consequently, noone likes to get clouded.
• 3.Clouding means power
  Why do people cloud each other? Well, this is simple: To show which character is more powerful; to get rid of someone who is annoying the character.

So, regarding these three points about clouding, we can see that there are three basic functions clouding has. All these functions are very important for the whole game balance. So, in any new Clouding system, all these functions must be part of.



My Proposal
Note: The new system is meant for PvP fights only! NPCvP remains as it is.

Clouding will remain the ultiamate consequence. The consequences for getting clouded should even get worse. I suggest a higher temporarily loss of attributes over a longer time for the attributes to recover.

The new thing is that there is a new status between lossing all HP and becoming a ghost. Basically this should be something like Pharse has mentioned: A sort of knock-out; A sort of emote which makes it impossible for the wounded characters to attack any more AND which makes it impossible for all others to damage him more. The graphic will remain the normal character graphic. The character's attributes are lowered, though, the character does not loose any items nor any skills. He will regain his attributes again when going to a cross. After some RL-hours the charactes' attributes will have recovered.

If a character gets knocked out for the second times within one RL week (random number), the consequence will be to become the ghost as we know it (=Clouding) with all its consequences (loss of items; loss of skills, temporarily loss of attributes). Clouding actually would means IG that the character actually has died and was ressurected by gods, when going to the cross!


Advantages of this idea
+ Clouding remains the ultimate consequence a character has to fear. No need to think about technical implementation of perma death or so.
+ Each character still has the chance to show that he/she is stronger than someone else by knocking him/her out. It still gives them the feeling of being more powerful.
+ The consequences of getting knocked out are not that dramatic for the knocked out character - as long as he/she acts carefully within the next week. So, there will be not so much OOC-emotions about getting knocked out.
+ There is still the danger of getting clouded. This supposably will keep POs from acting uncareful with their characters.
+ With this new system, there is a RP difference between getting knocked out and getting killed (=clouded). This would finally clear up the long lasting confusion of how to roleplay.

Shortcomings
- There is the danger that POs will knock out each other quite often, perhaps more often than people are clouding themselves at the moment.
- There still is the danger that POs activerly cloud another person directly AFTER they knocked him/her out. Such behaviour must be tackled with hard GM-interventions!


Last thoughts
I think there should be some additional monitoring of the knocked out/clouding rate over a certain time. By doing so the staff can see which characters are the most aggressive ones. If the clouding rate is too high with a certain character, GMs have to take special care of him. If his future Clouding attacks are badly roleplayed or have no reason at all, lower the character's skills and tell him why this has been done so.

[maryday]

@pharse; Only Greislings post made me understand, why especially skill-loss shall be disposed.

Simply to lessen the distance between (Fighter?-)PGers and RPers.
Your approach is basically correct.

Yet..

"Harsher punishment leads not to crime decrease,
but to more difficile abuse of regulations."

"Some say..Who won`t fight, has lost.
I think..who steps noone into the mud, will never lie beside him."

"Not many victims are delinquents in the end.
Every punished delinquent is a victim."

#me stands in a pool of blood, close to collapsing.

@Greisling; Beeing clouded can be real fun, if you`ve learned also roles of Uber-VICTIMS;
Your Last thoughts seem very idealistic;
Power stays power.
Power is never abused, as long it stays in the same hand.
Only self-biased persons moan, if someone unthrones them from their P-Ovwer?.




@Alex; May take away the possibility of village raids:

I get struck down, then on my way to the cross.
(i #w to my opponent to raid my hoardings ((i want my bag, but am not able to get my will achieved that simply)) )

We go to cross, then to depot, and he is able to choose if he keeps my bag..or some pieces of my (much more valuable..not personally ) armory..food stock..tools etc.

((In the meanwhile i might emote to an cooperate the situation)):twisted:





Removing the item drop leads to a unbearable cutification,
in exchange of an anticipation of ease from the side of playership, i would not trust to receive, if I was GM or even elective member.


We stand infront of the possibility if we trust the flexibility of each unknown player, or if we keep it on this engine supported system.

!GM is no durable solution to keep the level of RP consistent.
Players who need a GM to get along with each other, without causing harm to the system might be better situated
with some simpler Pen`n Paper, at first.

The same maybe for all fanatic PG-opposers.*sighs*

Its only a well prepared engine, what keeps players from constant (after a change has been made) moaning.


There WAS a seperation mechanism by account-sys.
It got abolished, from understandable reasons.
This MUST NOT lead to an increased effort for the GMs in view on the not-new playership.


@Hadrian;
Sad but true?
I see no decline in overall quality.
I only have noticed the vanishment of openly uttered OOC youth endangerment.

This SHALL NOT be a continuous progress of age-commendation decrease.


We maybe have about 10 players/GM. That makes quality, and not the b!ig quantity of RP-elitists.
Increase of players..while decrease of overall age might effort a much higher ammount of seers and GMs.
And a much harsher catalougue of punishment, with many different options to discipline ease-unwilling players.

Will need more seers, not GMs.
Will lead into direction of stronger OOC-factions and denigration.

Sad but true.


Or am i simply rabdophobic?

You see..i`m using a translator now. But not for playing.

[Korm Kormsen]

i like greisling's idea.

[Drathe]

I’m going to get shot down here for not reading the past 100 threads and related technical issues but this has been an issue around for years so;

Why can the character not simply BE knocked out. Instead of the ghost a graphic of a laying down character. The player is unable to do anything for a set time, except whisper. Call it a dying breath or concussed ramble. On this happening the ctrl or alt attack is disabled for the attacking player a short time say…a few seconds. So they do not ghost them. The KO'ed player can drop their bag or random items just as they do now when they are clouded.

The winner is happy for seeing a result, a thief/looter is happy for a chance to get something. The KO’ed player is happier for not loosing skills, but is a little disgruntled and the n00b who just run off with his bag. There is your ‘safety’ so to speak, a buffer for RP. People can be adequately beaten into submission for what ever reason. Think of the bodies when there is a good sized fight! It would look pretty good. N.P.Monsters do not attack ghosts so don’t have them attack the downed character. To kill, simply ctrl or alt again to turn them into a ghost exactly what happens now. I don’t know the technical limitations of it all. But I think its simple, neat and would add to the game.

It’s a game please don’t forget that with all these ideas, you WILL die, I want death it in the game, I want to be able to die and kill ….well KO other players or have the chance related on my skills and RP situation. If we want a fluffy non PvP game play one. Yes there will be people who abuse the situation there always is always will be no matter what, how slow, long, over timed, over complicated or supervised the system is. Let’s have one that makes the game GOOD rather than is like real life or one that is designed with the aim to stops people abusing it.

[maryday]

K.O. graphics.

We`re getting close to a solution?

[AlexRose]

Greisling, apart from the twice a week thing, that's exactly what pharse means..

[Maximilian]

Auch wenn ich nur den Anfang gelesen habe muss ich sagen das die Idee zwar seine Reize hat aber nicht gut ist da dann ein paar Handwerker ziemlich nutzlos werden.

[Miklorius]

Greisling, apart from the twice a week thing, that's exactly what pharse means..

Oh, you have insight in pharse's brain...

The most ideas refer to the concept of K.O., to which the staff recently said it did not work in the far past and maybe would need new graphics.
(I still think a working K.O. system is possible; enough ideas were posted here and in other topics. And again: The smallest action would be an official declaration how ghosting is meant to be played.)

[Greisling]

So, it seems there are at least three POs then (Pharse, Drathe, myself) who think a K.O. system is strongly needed.
Alex was able to see these overlaps as well...

I am sure there are others who think a K.O. system is needed and would benefit the game. The proposed system seems to be implementable without any new changes on the server - but this is just me. Perhaps the staff could comment on their point of view.

[Thanseus Valerian]

ich mag die idee überhaupt nicht...

[Greisling]

Konstruktive Kritik, Begründungen und Verbesserungvorschläge wären in der Tat hilfreich, um die Diskussion voranzubringen und dem Staff zu sagen, was wir Spieler wirklich gerne sehen wollen.


Constructive criticism, reasons for the own opinion and ways to make things better would be indeed helpful for telling the staff what we players really would like to see implemented.

[Mr. Cromwell]

I think a KO-system Drathe mentioned would be pretty useful. (With minor modifications, maybe).

Some people have been pretty vocal about characters (and players?) not fearing death enough, but I think we are in the opposite end now, where players are sometimes even risking inconsistent RP (bad) as they are ooc-irritated by the possibility of their character dying. This, simply because of the infuriating penalties which happen for the character at death (Because the skill-system we have is the time-consuming bastard of a system it is.. ).

A on a different note, I think the PvP-system could need some increased randomness in general, or a total revision of the starter-system*. Right now we have the situation where certain PO's know that there is no chance in hell that (especially a new character) can beat their characer and the characters act accordingly, even if there was a big orc warrior waving a hammer right in front of the old' characters face. Of course, the guys who actually spend all their days training their characters are going to curse me into the hell for that, but I think that there should be a chance even for the master warrior to be sometimes taken out by the average warrior who doesn't have the most uber set in the game. I somehow feel that the current system is way to 'scientific' (so you 'max' the stats in a right way, train enough, get the right set and then only guy with the same kind of steamlined way of doing things can take you out, after ten minutes of fighting) for such events to be a real possibility.

*It's going way OT, but whatever. I would firstly divide the created characters into two different types. The Young and the old Old. I would also give the players a chance to pick and choose a limited number of starter skills for their characters freely (with pre-made, advisory options available of course.)

Old character (Min age 25, if it matters?): Normal increase for the start skills. The skills you have start at higher (not that high.. Let's say 'average level'. Other skills raise much slower (75/50%). You should send an application for an 'old' character and it cannot be applied for during the (N)-period (simply to prevent PK-sprees ). This would allow people experienced players to play more 'the role'.. instead of 'the noob'.

Young: Current skill levels, the starter skills raise at higher rate (125/150%) and the others raise at normal level.

Edit: This doesn't seem like a too coherent post right now, but whatever. I hope it makes sense.

[Miklorius]

I am pro K.O., too... Comments from devs (besides "did not work") are welcome now!

@Cromwell: Besides the fact that even experienced fighter characters (RP background) who just began the game are in game terms indeed worse than most others, I think "leveling up" is just a core concepts of every RPG.
With high physical attributes you are quite strong from the beginning, there are critical hits and new good and bad days.
(But the idea with higher skills against higher learning rate is interesting!)

[Taeryon Silverlight]

Sorry, but I completly dislike that idea. This would again punish the roleplayers, since those are the only ones who'll be actually roleplaying that they are beaten. As for the forced emote: No, we have enough of them.

[Rosendil]

I like the main idea and have also thought about that topic.

My proposal for that is:

1) Disable the current "player killing" function.

Enable "player killing" only when a GM is there and taking care.
(call a GM via !gm command who enables the "pk" function manually)

2) Training mode: allows training fights player vs. player. stops fighting automatically if one opponent has less than 50 % life

3) The current player vs. monster mode is ok for me.

[Nitram]

Disable death in player vs. player fights is in my opinion not even a point of discussion. If you fighting you can die, that won't change.

I agree that it would be good if there is a pre-death state. Where the winner of the battle can choose if he finishes the looser off, or leave him alife. But to implement something like this, a bunch of new graphics and a lot of code on client, server and scripts is needed.

The other ideas I read here, sound like dirty and completly confusing hacks into the game, that would take more time to implement then anything real.

Nitram

[Deinarious]

ROFLLMAO

…

I think the pre-death condition is a good idea.