The Temple

[Avalyon el'Hattarr]

only one last thing to say in this topic:

ROFLMAO @ all of you for taking this game so seriously

[abcfantasy]

as I said before: RESPECT

respect the player behind the char
respect the char and the "work" the player put into it
respect the fact that there are ups and downs in life, so should be in illarion, you can't always win and you simply cannot always get what you want

Sure. But it must come from both sides. If I feel I'm not respected, then it's hard respecting back, at times at least. For example, I cannot see honest attempts at making chars perform a certain 'bad' action to let both sides enjoy a special/different/interesting moment of RP.

Of course, it has now become difficult for the baddies to do that. Their victims show lack of fear and respect, not playing along sometimes and stuff. That comes simply for the fact that baddies act somewhat frequently, and it's always about the same baddies, at least I think. But on the other hand, the 'baddies' can be bothered to have to act rarely or something along those lines, or to have their chars killed. So really, I think it's hard to reach a good balance.

why do fights always have to end up with clouding?
who not only rping and why not once in a while rping being weaker than the opponent (even if you know you are not), and yes, I know what I am talking about, I did it myself before, it works ... any hey, IT WAS FUN!

Of course, that would be really nice and enjoyable. But I believe it is very hard and sometimes undesired because:

- Some people may not feel comfortable or at ease to roleplay the whole fight.
- Some people will dislike to lose and thus will not allow to lose simply because they trained their char for hours.
- Some people dislike to lose by will.
- Some people have fun by winning others (not by the situation that crops up, the case that it will lead to and stuff)
- Some people thing the engine is there to be used whenever there is the chance.

So, guys, if you want to be as good as the temple, use more time for the game. That's it. Sounds harsh, but I can say it, because I'm one of the 'guys who would need to spend more time'.

That is true yes. But that is kicking out those kind of roleplayers who are bored to train and prefer to roleplay. Does illarion really want to move towards a point that will ultimately cripple the importance of such kind of roleplayers? Illarion has a great potential, and even now, despite all these disputes/disagreements, there still are wonderful roleplaying situations/chances and so on. It just seems that illarion (not how the staff is developing it, I think, but more due to the players' mentality) is moving further from its roleplay potential.

A consequence of what? 'Good' characters who try their very best to 'spoil' the fun of 'Bad' characters never have some pissed off GM come along and perma kill a load of them.

Please, not that. Bad chars have a bigger responsability and cause a large impact on players and characters. Good chars may do what? Organize campfire talks, balls, training, and the list can go on...anyone can reject to attend, no one is forced, etc...

Bad chars do what? They cause fear, tension, threaten, attack, injure, cloud etc... In most cases, the chars cannot choose to not have those, so it is in some way 'forced'. It's obviously inevitable though. But that is where the responsability lies.

As regarding to good chars spoiling the fun of bad chars, that is the 'reaction'. A reaction to the bad char's actions. If a 'good' char spoils the fun of a 'bad' char without having done anything in the first place, than the 'good' char is not 'good' at all, but a 'bad' one

Our characters don't exactly love the Nordmark, they walked up to look around there, and then put a couple of gnolls there.

What? Lured them? Before I really argue about this, do other people beside me (and obviously Alex and Dom who did it) think luring monsters to surprise other people is really dumb, stupid and only abusing the engine? (This is also in general, not directed at you if I misunderstood)

We didn't look on the freakin' online list

THat does not justify. You should look at the list.

Fact is that the POs in such "Clouding Fits" have annoyed many players in past. I would even say that they have annoyed more players with their cloudings than the Temple/Caelum has members.

Fact is also that by clouding some characters or just by attacking them, these chars would normally get in serious IG trouble. Since they are overpowergamed and seem not to understand anything else than getting clouded on their own, there is little will of other players to stand against them.

Fact is that the Temple has not shown any fear of any IG sanctions in past.

Very much agreed. That's what leads to disliking of certain chars, and certain actions. Even if there is action, maybe you gather a group to cloud them, as I said, they'll seek revenge to cloud you (because even if your char would despise them so much that he/she would slaughter the person, you can't impose a perma kill). So the attempts are less and less.

Edit:

ROFLMAO @ all of you for taking this game so seriously

Taking this game a bit serious might help, yes. People can go play runescape if they don't want to be serious at all. But this game requires some level of maturity, responsabilites, respect and cooperation.

(By serious, I do not mean having moments where you never laugh or smile from IG things, obviously )

[AlexRose]

• Fact is that there is no other group of players (or call them guild) who has clouded as many chars as the memebrs of the Temple/Caelum did.
  
  Fact is that the POs in such "Clouding Fits" have annoyed many players in past. I would even say that they have annoyed more players with their cloudings than the Temple/Caelum has members.
  
  Fact is also that by clouding some characters or just by attacking them, these chars would normally get in serious IG trouble. Since they are overpowergamed and seem not to understand anything else than getting clouded on their own, there is little will of other players to stand against them.
  
  Fact is that the Temple has not shown any fear of any IG sanctions in past.

I like the way you say Caelum/Temple because Dom is in Caelum and the war. We do not do random pks. That's like me saying "Troll's Bane pks a lot because one citizen pks people" or "Varshikar and Bane are obviously allianced and work everything together since Pellandria defended Caelum in the war"..

@Korm: ... a guild member can be a friend of a member of another guild without there being an alliance between the two, y'know?

Oh and @ Noradur: This was already dealt with and I don't want another argument since we seem to be on good terms right now.

Edit: @ABC We did not lure them, Dominic was training on them and he walked north to the nordmark, a 15 second walk maybe, so we stuck them in a pen and left.

[AlexRose]

A consequence of what? 'Good' characters who try their very best to 'spoil' the fun of 'Bad' characters never have some pissed off GM come along and perma kill a load of them.

Please, not that. Bad chars have a bigger responsability and cause a large impact on players and characters. Good chars may do what? Organize campfire talks, balls, training, and the list can go on...anyone can reject to attend, no one is forced, etc...

Depends on who you think is a "bad" char. People say Will is a bad char. What do you think he does? He does the exact same stuff, just with different people.

[Berengar]

Since this thread is so popular I'll add my two cents, before I'll turn back to study the extremely thrilling legal regulations in Austrian health care...

When I joined this game, we still had the very old client, without any name check, account system or anti-powergaming system. I created my char with a crappy name and became a master-fighter in one week. Everyone else did too, of course. Did we do a lot of system kills? Of course we did. 10 times more often than today. [...] The world we live in isn't equal, do you really think this game could ever be?

/signed

Today, we got all the slow skillgain, the new systems and stuff. It's all really fine, the game is way more complex today. The only problem for me is that it has also become very time-intensive.

/signed (I think I found a soulmate )

I don't really know how the whole Temple quest went down, because I quit playing (again ) when it started. However, in my opinion fun for everyone has highest priority and is based on mutual respect. I never liked the idea of turning people into clouds, because it doesn't contribute to my fun and even decreases the fun of others. I've hardly had any experience with any Temple-POs except PO Retlak, but I enjoyed playing with that one a lot

However, Korm being forced to built up fighting skills in order to be a craftsman is really sad imo, and goes way beyond "spicing up" the game. On the other hand being forced to get perma-killed by GM influence is at least as sad. If somebody breaks the rules, punish them, but don't create artificial ig punishments.

However, I have faith in our fellow GMs that they play fair and don't spoil the fun for the baddies just for having spent more time on building up their skills than the goodies...


@Retlak: YOU are Grivijak??

[Avalyon el'Hattarr]

*barges in again*

Organize campfire talks, balls, training, and the list can go on.

Lol, we do the same stuf i can assure you, but with our "friends", liek you do..
We are attacking you and you are attacking us.. how can you say which of us is bad and which is good since we do the same things vut frm different directions and with different "friends" ?

EDIT: arg alex was faster

[abcfantasy]

@ABC We did not lure them, Dominic was training on them and he walked north to the nordmark, a 15 second walk maybe, so we stuck them in a pen and left.

Uh...Can you enlighten me then on what luring means?

Edit:

Organize campfire talks, balls, training, and the list can go on.

Lol, we do the same stuf i can assure you, but with our "friends", liek you do..
We are attacking you and you are attacking us.. how can you say which of us is bad and which is good since we do the same things vut frm different directions and with different "friends" ?

Sure, that's good from your side too. But you -cannot- say that 'good' chars spoil the fun of 'bad' chars before a bad char would have done anything. That would meant he bad char cannot even be said to be bad. It would absolutely make no sense. Again, the good chars spoiling the fun of bad chars is a reaction of the bad chars' actions.

[AlexRose]

@ABC We did not lure them, Dominic was training on them and he walked north to the nordmark, a 15 second walk maybe, so we stuck them in a pen and left.

Uh...Can you enlighten me then on what luring means?

Oh come on, if I go to skeleton woods and pick up some red skeletons and run to Troll's Bane, or used the old "push them in a portal" thing, I'd count that as luring. Dom was there to TRAIN, I was there for steak, we go up to investigate the Nordmark and the gnolls follow, it was not intentional, so we stuck them in the pens and left.

[Miklorius]

FLAAAAAME WAAAAR!

Well, I have to say that the most time not much "good RP" by the baddie players came to my eye/ear, mostly it seems to me that the baddies roleplay not much if they interact with others.

I am truly pro "bad" characters in Illarion, but they should be played quite well and not only the "bad boys do the CTRL+click" style which IMO often happens. Quite all player-driven major actions by baddies like invasions in the last time lead to boring/stupid situations (Troll's Bane!).
Again: Think before doing something and respect and react to other players.

To the fight in the Grey Refuge yesterday:
There was the possibility for a nice RP with the intruders, but after they attacked us exactly when I was offline for a few moments (!), everything turns into constant CTRL+click war. Well, it was some action and maybe fun, although I died twice - but it was no good RP.

(The intruders came to the Grey Refuge when the Grey Orders had there regular meeting, so no suprise that more of us showed up later. But we did not really had a chance against you 2, 3 guys the most time because you start the battle in a lame way . And Ava showing up quite instantly after Dain sent a dove - with no chance on our side to stop that, I guess - was not so great, too.)

And do not complain that everyone sees Caelum = Temple = TB government. As Dantagon said, you appear and act together IG, so live with the consequences.

[abcfantasy]

Something I forgot to mention:

I have heard numerour players who are unhappy or not so glad when some baddie meets their chars or some baddie does a bad act and so on.

then why do they not post a single /signed here?

Because they either think it's useless, or wouldn't bother, or think they might be disliked by others or other reasons. But with this, we (we = who are often displeased with many bad chars' actions), I think, wouldn't really like having them just perma killed, but rather having -them- think a little more on their actions, be more responsible, etc...

However, it seems like that is hard to achieve, if not impossible.


@AlexRose: So if I was training at the red skeletons and ran to TB and it followed me there, or went to mine and a golem followed me to TB, is that not luring? Besides, that fact that you actually stuck them in the pens makes it a little worse.

[Kevin Lightdot]

Ehm, one thing though.
Korm, don't you play the fearless barbarian without much manners for many things?
That kind of expects you to get clouded.
Maybe it was another barbarian guy though.


Also, for the general thread:
Eeehm, stop crapping at eachother, and telling stuff that you only half know about/are completely assuming on one thing that can mean this and 300 others.

Now everyone shake hands?

[Arien Edhel]

Don't slide into flame or I'll close the thread.

[Retlak]

I don't really like how the Grey rose discussion got in here, it's a temple discussion, but on the topic of the grey rose battle yesterday:

I'm sorry to say this but don't put down the intruders, we were very dissapointed in your roleplay yesterday towards the end (Coming back from a cross and pretending nothing happened, a few of you, blocking a ghost from getting to the cross, etc.)

So both sides are as bad as eachover aye?

On a completely random topic:

I've hardly had any experience with any Temple-POs except PO Retlak, but I enjoyed playing with that one a lot

Aw, thanks dude ^^ I tried my best to make Retlak's appearance strange and unique for entertainment.

@Retlak: YOU are Grivijak??

Why yes, yes i am.

[Dantagon Marescot]

Don't slide into flame or I'll close the thread.

You know that that is all this will amount to in the end when people that actually have something to say it and discuss it. All that will leave us is with the spammers and the flamers.

[Arien Edhel]

I'm sorry but I didn't understand a word you said.

[Retlak]

Ok Arien, all it means is that the reason topics like this are created is for people to discuss the topic, yes sometimes flaming happens, but this doesn't make the community get worst, flaming eventually stops when players cool down. (I usually always send PM's to people I argue with and apolagise, etc)

If you lock a topic, people who want to get their feelings out are stopped, and get annoyed, and probably create new topics or get angry instead of being able to discuss.

Sorry for my off topic.

[jregan91]

*scans through the thread muttering come on 4 pages*

*sigh* way to many conversations going on at once lol is everyone letting out repressed anger or something??? also you do realize if you don't get back to topic SOME PEOPLE not everyone so please don't say but we are on topic more or less it just creates needless pages ok now thank you for letting me release some of my pent up anger please continue.

[Korm Kormsen]

AlexRose hat folgendes geschrieben::
@ABC We did not lure them, Dominic was training on them and he walked north to the nordmark, a 15 second walk maybe, so we stuck them in a pen and left.

Uh...Can you enlighten me then on what luring means?


Oh come on, if I go to skeleton woods and pick up some red skeletons and run to Troll's Bane, or used the old "push them in a portal" thing, I'd count that as luring. Dom was there to TRAIN, I was there for steak, we go up to investigate the Nordmark and the gnolls follow, it was not intentional, so we stuck them in the pens and left.

well, i really wonder, about what you, alex, are writing here.

fact is, that when tjalf came ingame, in both pig pens where monsters.
there were alltogether about five gnolls and to flesh out the picture, there were a couple of summoned skeletons and legless skeletons in each pigpen.
and they were in locked pigpens.
if you play a scoundrel, that is one thing. but that you can not stick to the truth ooc, that is a pity.

enough written from my side.

korm
.

[AlexRose]

Lol, there can't have been 5 gnolls considering 5 gnolls don't even spawn; 2 do.

[Arien Edhel]

Ok Arien, all it means is that the reason topics like this are created is for people to discuss the topic, yes sometimes flaming happens, but this doesn't make the community get worst, flaming eventually stops when players cool down. (I usually always send PM's to people I argue with and apolagise, etc)

If you lock a topic, people who want to get their feelings out are stopped, and get annoyed, and probably create new topics or get angry instead of being able to discuss.

Sorry for my off topic.

Thanks for the explanation.
I don't lock a thread 'cause I like it. You shall discuss, that's what this board is made for.

But I don't like:
- flamewares
- personal attacks
- spam

I'm not only a Seer-GM I'm equally a mod and to have a look for staying by the boardrules and the netiquette is part of my job.

It was only a warning 'cause I know my 'Pappenheimer' gradually. (perhaps somebody can find the obversely translation).

[Dantagon Marescot]

*Drops her giant yellow german to english/english to german dictionary infront of her and looks up the word."

Pappenheimer: I know you lot/that lot (inside out).

*Glances up at Arien and raises her brow.* Uh-huh...

Did you mean "I know how you lot work so I gave a warning?"

[Ivar Kraftimarm]

pappenheimer means the cavalry of gottfried heinrich of pappenheim. this soldiers were very loyal. the sentence "i know my pappenheimer" meant very loyal people in the past. it is a bit negative sentence today. it means "i know my shit making people" or so

[Vern Kron]

I didn't mean to kill him and I don't care I did. If some crafter was asked to leave by a man holding blades to him and didn't.. he clearly isn't to bright.............

I am happy I found THIS little tid bit of a board when I did. You never said leave troll's bane, nor even mentioned it. You said your alone too much to talk to me like that. And then back in Troll's Bane I was minding my own business, trying to roleplay as a crafter, and I got to go mine and you say, "I warned you," you unsheath your blades and then kill me. No time for a #me to roleplay the fight, you just cloud me.
And half of you wonder why new players don't stay around...well, lets see. Day three of the game, a man starts a fire in the tavern, and I go put it out. Ended up with me being threatened to be killed. Day one, golems are dragged into town, and I do not know what a cross even is. Yes, the roleplay caused by me being injured is good...but still. Me being injured, and barely even wanting to play this game any more is not.


Basically, the temple has too much power. You may not all be yellow, or the uber warriors, but you have pretty much taken over the entire island, it makes little since for one guild be controlling two cities, an entire region, and do whatever they want, without caring about the laws. What happens if you become inactive? One town with an inactive leader is a problem, now the whole island is controlled by inactive leaders, and how many people want to play a game when they are threatened to be killed by an army, when they themselves are defensless at anytime? It is frustrating for the people who aren't warriors and try not to be. I will probably say more, but this is my poorly worded arguement for now.

[Miklorius]

(Coming back from a cross and pretending nothing happened [...]

That is a general problem ingame: How to play ghosting? There are no official guidelines yet (some of us "Greys" emoted as being wounded); new discussion about that here.
(And because in the "Grey Rose incident" were 2-3 Temple members involved like Lrmy said, it is quite fitting to this topic .)

I've hardly had any experience with any Temple-POs except PO Retlak, but I enjoyed playing with that one a lot

I remember meeting a skeleton character in a rainy night near the harbor when the Temple was "big" - and I wasn't CTRL+clicked there. Cool RP and I still wonder who that skeleton was...

Basically, the temple has too much power. You may not all be yellow, or the uber warriors, but you have pretty much taken over the entire island, it makes little since for one guild be controlling two cities, an entire region, and do whatever they want, without caring about the laws. What happens if you become inactive? [...]

It is not that bad that evil guys break the laws and get power (although I doubt recent happenings are really planned infiltrations), it is the fault of "us" good guys if we don't come together to kick their arses . Unfortunately, most people don't care who leads a town etc., as usual. But you are right with inactivity: Making trouble everywhere and taking the power is one thing, but then don't use it or making anything, is not good for the game.

[Lance Thunnigan]

Vern I can see why you're mad, but the second paragraph was just shit.
Are you serious? The entire isle?

Which isle are -you- playing on? 0.o

[Vern Kron]

Ok, then let me explain it to you with examples. On the wiki, it says any member can be protected from jailing while in the guild. That shows to me that they control the entire isle. Caulum is basically under their control, Troll's Bane, Grey, Varshikar may not be under their control yet, but it is slipping, and Green Briar is getting close due to the fact that Caulum is but a rock throw away. Also...getting the good guys together would be great, if not for ONE problem. Bad guys either out number or outpower them, considering most of em are mages. (I use good guys and bad guys as a rough term, because that was how it was stated) If something is not changed, then there WILL be complete control of the island.

[Retlak]

We're really not as big as people say we are..

I'm counting active members here:

Avalyon, yeah, powerful mage, but he gives alot of chances and is a great player.

Seregon / Grivijak (I can only play one at a time ) Both really aren't much trouble, Grivijak i don't even really play atall anymore (nor is he a threat), now that Seregon joined the picture. And i am sure as the grey rose experienced yesterday that Seregon is hardly a threat when tackled approproately.

Dain Laiden is probably the active badass, the one that deals with characters by any means, etc.

I'm not joking lol, us three are pretty much the only ones that log in more than once a week or something. Unfortunately if there was a group to stand up to the temple.. There wouldn't be much of a fight.

I remember meeting a skeleton character in a rainy night near the harbor when the Temple was "big" - and I wasn't CTRL+clicked there. Cool RP and I still wonder who that skeleton was...

It was probably Retlak, I lurked in the bad weather alot, and i dislike ctrl clicking with quest chars very much.

[Evan Ross]

To be fair, I'm on more then once a week, Just not always with you guys.

[Lrmy]

To respond on a few posts..

I am happy I found THIS little tid bit of a board when I did. You never said leave troll's bane, nor even mentioned it. You said your alone too much to talk to me like that. And then back in Troll's Bane I was minding my own business, trying to roleplay as a crafter, and I got to go mine and you say, "I warned you," you unsheath your blades and then kill me. No time for a #me to roleplay the fight, you just cloud me.
And half of you wonder why new players don't stay around...well, lets see. Day three of the game, a man starts a fire in the tavern, and I go put it out. Ended up with me being threatened to be killed. Day one, golems are dragged into town, and I do not know what a cross even is. Yes, the roleplay caused by me being injured is good...but still. Me being injured, and barely even wanting to play this game any more is not.

The incident I posted that segment you quoted had NOTHING to do with you. I ctrl+clicked a player in the shop after asking him to leave when he made fun of my character. He did not leave while he had blades pointed at him and continued making fun of my character. Well, he got clouded bud. If you want to speak about why I ctrl+clicked you, ask in MSN or private message me.

@lrmy: Without a little respect in front of our gms you are playing the wrong game. Sorry.

When I am called names over MSN by some one that looses their temper over a game, I tend to loose respect for them. I have some more respect for him now than then because he and I both calmed down some.

With that I will log in game see you all there.

[Vern Kron]

Then...you killed two crafters in a few days? And people wonder why there are no normal people! I am mad about you killing me, but I will get over it. I will just steam about it for a while and then be fine, don't mind me. It still was a good roleplay afterwords.