Attributes

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 4:17 am

Greetings!
Concerning those starting attributes of your character that you get to choose...Here are some of thoughts on how they should affect in-game play in ways I think they do not currently.

High Strength: Possibly give a character more stamina in the future when stamina is introduced? (Strong people can endure more.)
High Dexterity: Give a character higher rate of success in crafting. (Dexterity=nimble and skilled with the body)
High Agility: Allow a character to move faster graphically in-game. (Agile people are faster than their opposite clumsy people.)
High Constitution: Allow a character to lose less health when poisoned, and drinking beer (Consitution is a determination of one's level of health, and so a healthier person should suffer less from such drinks as beer.)
High Intelligence: Let a character learn crafts faster. (Intelligent people learn faster than stupid people.)
High Essence: Let a character be resurrected easier. (Essence I assume is a defition of one's spiritual strength...going from that one who is spirtually powerful should find his/her way easier back to the living world if dead.)
High Perception: Let a character see farther graphically in game. (Perceptive people are very observant and so notice more things than others close and far away.)
High Willpower: Allow a player to get higher prices when selling to NPCs (and get lower prices when buying from NPCs (A weak-willed person is easily convinced, while a strong-willed person convinces someone else.)

That's all for now! Positive posts welcome.
-Elaralith

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 4:23 am

hehe, for the first time i would have to agree this is an exelent idea, with a bit of touch ups concerning other parts of the game, its a really good idea, but does contridict the fact of skill, it takes less effort for a person with high intelligence to make a shovel as it does the person with the same level of blacksmithing with low intelligence, but i guess stupid people dont learn quite as fast heh.

Drogla · Post by **Drogla** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 4:47 am

two things come to mind-one, willpower isnt ust for bargening, but also crafting-will to succesed, battle-will not to die
two-what you said i like, but more can be added

Fedaykin · Post by **Fedaykin** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 1:32 pm

Also da ich nicht so gut Englisch kann (Zumindest nicht schreiben), poste ich mal in Deutsch. Vielleicht kann das ja jemand übersetzen. Wenn das so kommen sollte sollte es aber auch möglich sein diese Attribute zu steigern. Man könnte das ja so machen das es dann für jedes Attribut auch einen Balken gibt oder wie jetzt mit diesen Farben. Wenn dieser dann Voll ist steigt das entsprechende Attribut um einen Punkt. Man könnte nehmen Körperliche Arbeiten Minig,Blacksmithing für Stärke. Bücher die man lesen kann für inteligenz u.ä.

Wäre nur das Problem das dann vielleicht wieder leute anfangen nur ihre Skills zu erhöhen. Obwohl das so reeller wäre. Man wird ja auch in Wirklichkeit stärker wenn man hart arbeitet.

Mishrack · Post by **Mishrack** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 1:36 pm

One thing is sure, When willpower is implemented, Korwin andI will rule the world.

MWAHAHA!

Aragon · Post by **Aragon** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 1:41 pm

"Short Translation of Feydakin:
He wishes, that attributes should also be able to rise, like skills."

There exists an older topic, where Galdriel said some aspects to the possibility of rising attributes / Es existiert ein älterer Topic, in dem sich Galdriel darüber negativ äußert:

http://www.illarion.org/community/forum ... c&start=10

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 10:03 pm

Rising attributes I think would make illarion closer to being a "level-up" kind of game. Also I think it would not really work because some attributes it makes sense for them to rise like Strength, but for others like Essence...it does not make sense for them to rise, as such things are unchangeable and something you are born with in my opinion.

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Tue Feb 04, 2003 11:46 pm

Take a look at This. Some of the things you've suggested are alreayd planned.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Wed Feb 05, 2003 3:54 am

@Korwin True, I do realize that some of the things I mentioned are planned in a slightly different fashion. But most are not...

Iqloo · Post by **Iqloo** » Thu Feb 06, 2003 3:03 am

I like the skill rise thing-a-ma-jig. But olny according to our classes/races (i know classes are different). So a hobbit could get a maximum of 20agility, if he/she hasnt already put it up there. The skills would be HARD to raise aswell.

Just a little ranting rant of rants in the ranting section thats really a rant but in a way it isnt a rant, anyways this whole run-on sentance is a rant because im thinking about ranting and ranting is what run-on senctances do best, that is rant.

gasps for air

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Sun Feb 09, 2003 3:01 am

@Iqloo That would be a catastrophe! Don't you see? If your starting attributes could rise many people would have maximum stats according to their race! So we would end up having clones of each race and no diversity.

Niniane · Post by **Niniane** » Sun Feb 09, 2003 3:11 am

That's my thoughts on the point exactly, Elaralith. If you're able to raise skills as well as attributes in the same way then it will turn into another leveling game. Since not many characters are 'born' as very young children you don't need to raise your attributes when they age. If they raise they should also decline and that would make many people unhappy so for now and until a very solid alternative could be created I think the best option would be to keep them constant, as they are now.

@ Elaralith. The only idea I did not like in your proposal was the use of intelligence. There are many fine craftspeople in the world that are extremely skilled and have learned their trade as if it were born in them to do so yet they are not the smartest people in the world. Far from it. Intelligence in illarions meaning has to do with ability to understand complex things and not day-t- day things you learn from experience. For the most part anyway. Everything else makes perfect sense to me!

Galdriel · Post by **Galdriel** » Sun Feb 09, 2003 8:52 am

as a matter of fact, each single attribute already has a fitting effect, even though the effect may not be easily visible to the unknowing observer.
some effects are more important right now, since their use is rather obvious, but that may change in good time, as new things and features are implemented, and maybe then some attributes will get a different value.

Iqloo · Post by **Iqloo** » Sun Feb 09, 2003 7:49 pm

I thought my idea was a good idea. Oh well!

Let me close with one statement, that has something to do with this topic and something that doesnt:

If they add new attributes id request the ability to rebalance your own. (Lets say they add.. comprihension! the ability to learn things quicker. Id like for the older players to go in, and rebalance their stats to incorprate that in there abilitys.)

Galdriel · Post by **Galdriel** » Sun Feb 09, 2003 9:52 pm

well, all the attributes existing, existed since the first day.
if they had effect from the first day on, i dont know,
but then it is not a sign of wisdom, to choose values for their effect in the early stages of a development

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Mon Feb 10, 2003 4:43 am

@Galdriel Hmmm, I see. I understand about all the attributes having "hidden values". But what I tried to propose was "visible values" for the attributes perhaps in the near future. E.g. High agility causes your character to graphically walk faster and so on.
P.S. I think the manual and tutorial should be updated. The information in there is very out of date and can mislead people I think. For example, in one part it says that perception has no value as of yet...
@Niniane Hm. I see your point of view. But see here. Let us say there is a blacksmith. I say he cannot be very skilled without also being intelligent because if he was "dumb" how would it happen for him to think of brilliant ideas to form metal into ingenious shapes?

Niniane · Post by **Niniane** » Mon Feb 10, 2003 5:07 pm

I could agree that it should help to some extent but not very much. A person with the mental capacity to do such wondrous things as create magic would not learn to make something from metal at a faster rate (A person with intelligence levels of 15 or higher are extremely high in illarions case and allows them to do wonderous things. This is by far above average and should be thought of as such in my opinion.) It's something you have to practice to become good at. They may understand the different aspects of how to shape metal and create nice works but they still would have to train their bodies to be precise in their hits and strong as well. Most crafts people in the world are not in the upper echelons of the intelligent class of the world. Especially not back in the time frame of illarion when the majority of the items made were of the horseshoe/tool/weapon variety and look at the options we can make now, they're not something you would have to be a genius to make or even learn to make. It's something you would learn from watching someone esle and then practicing. It may expediate the process of understanding what must be done and therefore speed up the overall learning curve of how to make an item but the main time consuming aspect of this as well as most crafts is trial and error in the form of practice. This should comprise the main determining factor of how long it takes to learn a craft, not someone's intelligence level but rather the time and effort they put into learning it.

Caranthir the great · Post by **Caranthir the great** » Mon Feb 10, 2003 5:58 pm

Also, the smartest ones tend to also be most unstable and more vulnerable any mental sicknesses. Also you cant use single 'intelligence' to repesent everything regarding 'intelligence', since it comes in too many forms and shapes. For instance when people refer Albert Einstein as a genious, he might be genious in maths and physics but when it would be about the structure of german language, he might know nothing about it.

Draakon · Post by **Draakon** » Mon Feb 10, 2003 6:02 pm

Well I have worked as a craftsman and still do sometimes (IRL that is) I am not stupid but not likley Mensa material either. It really is all about practise and a teacher, I mean obviously if you were given a hammer and a peice of metal and told to make a sword this would be hard. But if you have the knowlege of what you must do or someone shows you what must be done it becomes very "simple". Now all you need is a great portion of trial and error practise practise, most crafting skills are based on this sort of thing monkey see monkey do

Also for a smith as an example to make new better swords I am guessing he either uses the swords he makes himself or sells them to others and if you sell a product to someone if they think something is wrong with it I am sure they will tell you. And if you are a somewhat witty person you would ask them how they like your product and just maybe the warrior using it all day long might have an idea for improvement.....Just because you are a rocket scientist does not mean you have the slightest clue how the best possible sword would be, I would rather ask the warrior on the battlefield (though he may be dumb as a rock) than a mage on his opinion what a better sword would be like.

And when you do something over and over you get alot better at it and you think of new ways to improve it all by yourself

just remember to get patent!

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Mon Feb 10, 2003 10:47 pm

Hmmmm I see what you mean Niniane. I agree that intelligence should not affect the success rate of crafting too much as being good at most crafts is due mostly to trial and error and a whole lot of practicing...but I do think that intelligence should affect it a little. First of all because it just makes sense, and second of all to prevent people to not give any skill points at all to their intelligence and see it as useless except for magic-users.

Draakon · Post by **Draakon** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 2:55 pm

I think it would depend on how you define intelligence, you can be smart in some areas and really dumb in others. Booksmart and streetsmart are two very good examples of this. To work with crafting in what ever area it may be you may or may not be helped if you are really good at understanding for example mathematics, in other areas it may not help you at all but rather a good understanding of the craft itself would be nessesary to improve yourself in it. Put to give a more straight example since I am unsure if I make myself understood at all english not being my first language and all

The art of smithing metal came from someones idea that this could be done, then to actually get metal out of rock the idea of refining the metal came. I think it would take some intellegence to come up with this idea and how to work it out but also a great deal of imagination and desire to get it done. However once this became known and people knew how to do it there is no longer any intellegence required. Basically the same thing would go with smithing things into weapons. If you have the needed information on what you must do it becomes an easy process, now as you smith and smith swords all the live long day (wich would be what a smith did and not what you should be doing in Illarion) eventually this will become a much easier process. And since you obviously cannot have an intellignece score below what would make you walk on two legs and speak in Illarion you will learn how to make better swords by trial and error. I know your suggestion is to make "smarter" people learn faster wich does make sence and is in most cases true. However when dealing with such a simple skill as smithing or wood crafting really is just trust me that noone would have a problem to learn it, what might hold you back in making these crafted things are not if you are smart or not but more how strong you are and how good you are at working with your hands.
Smithing a sword is alot of hard work and very very heavy, and to craft good straight well working arrows of wood you would need a steady hand.

I think what should make you learn new things faster is willpower rather than intelligence (if we now really want a stat for this) because however intelligent you may be making a sword is making a sword. To make something more and better you need the will to do this and not make swords because you want to make just swords. Making something over and over gets you better at doing it and makes for small improvements as you learn about what you are doing. Elaralith I am sure you are pretty smart I get that feeling when you write anyway

But I am also sure you could not tell me the best way to make a sword (I will take a huge assumption you are not a swordsmith in real life hehe) However if you started making swords and got some basic knowlege about it and things concerning it such as different metals and then you started making tons of swords and with the will to make the best sword ever eventually you probably could. Your intelligence would not help you much until you have a big knowlege of the art, this is simple truth and very real. Many a times have I made tiny parts for cars and motorbikes and the likes and someone who really knows nothing about metal crafting comes and says I should do this and that to make it better that and that way (usually people from the sales department who would be concidered very intelligent compared to me) and I have to tell them if I make the improvments they suggest or do things a different way that may be faster or cheaper it will cause a huge maulfunction when the part is attatched to the engine and it will be very dangerous because the part becomes weaker and breaks apart easier wich would cause the whole engine to burn out and possibly create a car accident along the way. And in addition I can tell them in order to make these things faster and using less material I require a slightly more expencive material wich is easier to work with and a faster machine, of course that is not as interresting.
So anyway all you need to improve is willpower and know how, now how fast that goes would be more related to hard work than intelligence, this is the truth for crafting arts of simple nature such as it were in the medevil times. Smarts may be realted to learning faster but that is not really the same thing as intelligence. I shall be quiet now

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Fri Feb 14, 2003 11:10 pm

@Caranthir You need to work on your history *g*. Albert Einstein was a German Jew. He spoke German...
@drakantor Thank you for the compliment

. I see what you mean, by the way I know the methods to smith a sword in RL

though I have not tried it and probably never will.