Language Marking

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:32 pm

This is one of those really weird ideas of mine, I'm sorry.

A few days ago I logged in, and I Roleplayed my character as being very injured, collapsing around and stuff. Almost EVERYONE (4-5 people) ignored me, until a german player who admitted to not understanding much english tried her best to roleplay with me. So I assume no-one was understanding because of the language barrier

The idea is simple, upon creation of the account, the player would choose whether s/he can speak english, german or both. This choice is shown on the character and in the online list.

For example Someone (123456) G/E [Speaks German/English]
Someone (654321) E [Speaks Just english]

Same for the online players list

Humans
John Smith [E]
Joseph Borg [G/E]
=

This would help a lot in being able to notice whether a person CAN roleplay with your or not, and whether you should bother logging in if the only people online can't understand you.l

Tanistian_Kanea · Post by **Tanistian_Kanea** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:55 pm

I don't see why not, it would be mildly helpfull. wouldn't take that long either i don't think.

Post by **Nitram** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 4:58 pm

No problem for the website part. About the client part... dunno.

Nitram

Tanistian_Kanea · Post by **Tanistian_Kanea** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:03 pm

not the client part no. i wouldn't like that either. it was always roleplayed as those who could speak the old language and those that could speak the new. i only think it should be done on the website half.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:06 pm

Tanistian_Kanea wrote:it was always roleplayed as those who could speak the old language and those that could speak the new. i only think it should be done on the website half.

Thing is, those who don't understand 'the new language' won't understand #me s in english either...

Kaila Galathil Travinus · Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:41 pm

That is a great idea. I don't think it is necessary for the char to have it ig. If every char on the online list had this, it would be a rough idea for anyone that got ig whether there would be anyone that could RP with them in the language they speak.

Haniel Raynn · Post by **Haniel Raynn** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:43 pm

Yeah looks great! I agree though, don't worry about the client. The online list would definitely be helpful!!

Calenleia · Post by **Calenleia** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:09 pm

Its diffrent, if you can speak a bit or RP in english.
I'm german *surprise, surprise*

And I tryied a lot of times to RP in english... did translations for Miru and so on, but if I play just for my relaxation (don't know if this word fits in here), Rping in english needs my whole concentration and its really hard work... it really is.
I can't emote very good in english, to many discribing words are missing...

BUT I love some english talking players, and it would be not the same without them!

So just stay....

EDIT My answer is a mix - could possibly be a answer to Fiannas Thread "the exodus"

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:24 pm

I don't think this will help at all.
Quite the opposite, I even belive this will increase the gap between the two "fractions".

Kaila Galathil Travinus · Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:32 pm

It is disheartening to get ig and find no one you can RP with. Most of the PO that have been around awhile know already those that are willing to RP in a certain language with them. Some don't even try to find another to RP with. Take Cal for instance, it was a pleasant surprise to RP with the char and I very much enjoyed it. Some may not know that she RP's well in English (and you do a great job Cal

). Now that they do, some might stay ig longer in order to RP versus finding two PO's that don't RP with them, and leaving the game.

The eventual outcome may be different, but the idea is worth at least a trial period.

Calenleia · Post by **Calenleia** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 7:58 pm

Kaila you make me embarrassed, but to come back to the topic, I like this idea, makes it easier for the english speaking ones, I suppose.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 8:33 pm

Keikan Hiru wrote:I don't think this will help at all.
Quite the opposite, I even belive this will increase the gap between the two "fractions".

I fail to see how this will happen.

If you're an english speaker you rp with english or english/german speakers and ignore german-only speakers.

It already happens lyke this...

(When i mean 'speak' english I don't mean Alexroseenglish, but enough to be able to Rp with)

Lennier · Post by **Lennier** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:03 pm

Propably Keikan means a situation, in which only-german or german/english players (status shown by a new system) could decrease logins of english (non-german) players, because of the lack of other.

Means: A non-german player takes a look at the online list and see what? A lot of german and german/english speaking players, but only few non-germans. So, he would decide to login or not with this new knowledge about the chance to have fun with people who understand him good enough?

In general i do not really believe, that an only english player has really much fun by roleplaying with me, who has a very limited set of words, which i can use for any kind of communication.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Mon Jul 16, 2007 9:07 pm

I already logged in twice recently and didn't find anyone to Rp with...

For some reason its full of german speakers.

However, german (sole) speakers aren't that much, and I don't really see the case when ALL are german speakers, and there arent' a few german/english.

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:19 am

Doesn't this actually mean that this idea is useless?
As you said, its usualy the case that someone can speak english, or has at least a glimpse of the language.
I have not many people who are absolutly unable to speak english.

Taking the given example in your opening post:
Your problem was not that nobody understood you, but that they ignored you.
This is a completly different issue, that unfortunatly can not be addressed by any technical system.

What I think this system will do:
Taking one of the players with little english vocabluary, or someone without confidence in his own language skills.
This person might take his [German Flag]-Icon as excuse to ignore any english roleplay arround him.

Thus, your idea might even increase the problem you pictured in your opening post.

By the way, what are you doing with the French, Italian, Swedish, Norwegian and Dutch players?
Do they get thier own flag?

I don't like ideas that technically split up communities in categories.

pharse · Post by **pharse** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:20 am

perhaps these language flags shouldn´t be visible in specific for each char, what about a percentage indicating how many online chars speak German, English or both. This would at least spare some time to log in and then find out that there is nobody to rp in one´s language.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:28 am

Keikan Hiru wrote:Doesn't this actually mean that this idea is useless?
As you said, its usualy the case that someone can speak english, or has at least a glimpse of the language.
I have not many people who are absolutly unable to speak english.

That would give him the marking flag, there is no problem with that...

Taking the given example in your opening post:
Your problem was not that nobody understood you, but that they ignored you.
This is a completly different issue, that unfortunatly can not be addressed by any technical system.

So its because they stink at RPing? 4 people? They were Rping/Talking in german, and you wouldn't ignore a person who just collapsed on the floor.

I do NOT want to log in, spend 5 minutes looking around for people, then realise that no-one can understand me because none of them speak english. This way, I'll log in 'only' when I'd be 'appriciated'

What I think this system will do:
Taking one of the players with little english vocabluary, or someone without confidence in his own language skills.
This person might take his [German Flag]-Icon as excuse to ignore any english roleplay arround him.

If a person is ignoring the roleplay around him, s/he deserves to be banned doesn't s/he?

You don't have to have 'alexrose' english skillz, most of the german players know how to speak very good english (there was a post in the general board), ideally the [germanonly] flag would be for those who don't speak ANY english at all, a very small amount (I used to think)

Thus, your idea might even increase the problem you pictured in your opening post.

By the way, what are you doing with the French, Italian, Swedish, Norwegian and Dutch players?
Do they get thier own flag?

I don't like ideas that technically split up communities in categories.

For me, a player who doesn't understand ANYTHING I say, is useless. For him, its probably the same thing. Since gestures are #me s in languages, s/he can't even understand what your character is doing at all...
-
And the OFFICIAL languages of illarion are german and english, players who can speak different languages do not need to be marked, because they'll never use them ingame. I don't run around speaking Maltese on the forum so (1.5) people can understand me.

Mr. Cromwell · Post by **Mr. Cromwell** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:44 am

So its because they stink at RPing? 4 people? They were Rping/Talking in german, and you wouldn't ignore a person who just collapsed on the floor.

Yeah you would.

#me ignores the man on the floor.
#me glances indifferently at the man on the floor, before looking back to the person he was speaking with.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:47 am

. . .

There was no #me ignores the person on the floor, everyone just continued WALKING past.

Haedrian falls onto the ground
*person passes by*
Haedrian is lying down on the groudn face down
*another person passes by*
Haedrian moans
Haedrian looks up from the floor
w:Someone (Finally a Rper...): (( sorry my englisch is not very well ))
-

Post by **Estralis Seborian** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:11 pm

Just like RL - in 1992, the ADAC (german automotive society) made a test. Out of 60 car drivers, approaching a very obvious car crash with two injured persons, only 5 stopped to do first aid

-> you were lucky.

Seriously, I doubt this can be solved by adding an "E" to the character name. One can, of course, add this information to the character profile. But the problem will remain, people disregarding RP of others. The same problem occurs when starting an unannounced quest, no matter what language used.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:48 pm

But the problem will remain, people disregarding RP of others

But now we will be able to notice whether they are just non-Rpers (and .: bannable?) or just people who don't understand english.

Kevin Lightdot · Post by **Kevin Lightdot** » Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:05 pm

Keikan Hiru wrote:I don't think this will help at all.
Quite the opposite, I even belive this will increase the gap between the two "fractions".

/signed

It will, in my view atleast, only cause almost every german to choose german, even if they can speak some English, and same way around.
It will only make nearly all people not bothering at all with someone using a different language flag.

I have made a char sometime back, whom has rped mostly only with germans, trying to speak English(Quite bad at times) But I respect them much more for trying than I could someone who can speak perfect English and doesn't bother.

But would I really have tried if they had a big german flag above their head(Since they speak mainly just german, and most of those likely wouldn't consider English a language they can speak)? I don't know, not too likely I must admit, I will most likely not have bothered to have tried to make first contact with those of the germanish lands, to my feeling just about all of the chars I met ignore me, and due to my timezone I can only guess about 70% or more are german.

So would I have tried? Not likely.

Kaila Galathil Travinus · Tue Jul 17, 2007 8:08 pm

I don't have a good answer to the questions brought up of what people will likely do. I am assuming that someone speaking German and English and willing to RP in either language no matter how "bad" they think their skill is, will put both languages. Unlike Hadrian, I did not even log in to check yesterday evening (USA time) not recognizing any of the 0-4 chars ig as being able to RP in English whereas if I would have known that even one was willing/able to RP in English, I would have gotten ig and tried to find them

.

(Since the information for German/English will just be in the online list and not with the char, it seems to me it would less likely separate the languages, but will open the opportunity to more understanding when your RP is not understood.)

Fianna Heneghan · Post by **Fianna Heneghan** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 4:34 am

Lennier wrote:In general i do not really believe, that an only english player has really much fun by roleplaying with me, who has a very limited set of words, which i can use for any kind of communication.

I don't agree. I have seen you in game. You do alright in english.
I find most of the german players do better in english than they give themselves credit for. Though I can understand Calenleia's point about using the second language being a lot of work.

Maybe part of the problem we are having is that the german speakers feel afraid to play (or write forum posts) in english, and the english players interpret this as being excluded?

Calenleia · Post by **Calenleia** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:30 am

Fianna Heneghan wrote:
Maybe part of the problem we are having is that the german speakers feel afraid to play (or write forum posts) in english, and the english players interpret this as being excluded?

That is part of the problem I think, but the other point is, f.e. on some evenings, and I mostly have the time just in the evenings, I am really tired from the day, and my head is full of so much work, I just can't concentrate in writing english.
Sometimes I think of words I allready know....
Its not so, that the english speaking ones are annoying, but sometimes, I just can't understand the posts in the forum and I hope someone will translate, also I don't get the main point of it... thats frustrating and so, the main english written Threads I will not read... thats the fact.
I can understand Miru, who tried hours and hours translating... it is frustrating...

And some english speaking players think all germans can speak fluently english, thats not true. I know really a lot, who can't. They try to talk with hands and feet, but understand nothing.
So on their side, I can understand the frustration too. They COULD say, the english speaking ones should learn some german.... but thats not the point.

I think, everyone is welcome... but sometimes it is hard.... and difficult. Sometimes it is really funny... RP with Kaila and Fianna is really nice every time... they have the patience to wait, if I need a bit longer... I think a bit more harmony, a bit more cooperation IG is needed. NOt only because of the language barrier.....

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:42 am

*reads above post*

I really don't see what's wrong with your english... Its very good.

Don't worry about detail or whether your grammar goes to pieces, as long as you TRY its alright

(this goes to all german/english speakers)

Algoran · Post by **Algoran** » Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:37 am

The problem with an online indication of language would be that people would not log in unless the percentage of language X was in their favour. This actually creates the problem of too few players of language X online.
We already have people who look at the online list and won't log on unless certain other characters are there.

I'm sure there are several reasons for your RP being ignored. Perhaps the people did not speak language X well enough to feel confident to join in, or the characters were not the sort of person to get involved in the scenario you were playing out. I don't see language as enough of a problem to start excluding people automatically.

Edit: changed "...players of language Y online." to "...players of language X online." No idea why I put Y.

Lrmy · Post by **Lrmy** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:59 am

It seems like there are a few problems that have been mentioned in this thread.

1. Some people think it is a good idea to be able to tell if a player speaks the same language as them.
2. Some people feel their RP is being ignored by people that can speak their language but just won't.
3. Some people feel that this will cause even less people to be on at a given time.
4. Some people feel like their language skills are not good enough to RP effectively in both languages.

These are all conflicting problems and clearly some solution needs to be reached for something.

I like the idea of seeing what languages a character can speak. Should a player that claims they can speak both languages be banned if they are robbed by some one using English #me's and ignore them? Yes. I only bring that up because I once tried to rob two players that were speaking German to each other. My #me's were ignored, so I figured they didn't speak English. Then, I heard them both speaking it later in the tavern. I'm not saying this is common, but it does happen.

I also once attempted to play a dwarf in Silverbrand in the not to distant past. This was extremely difficult when 90% of the dwarves didn't/woulden't speak English to me. Perhaps if I had known when the ones that did speak English were on I might have had a more active dwarf.

Algoran · Post by **Algoran** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:12 pm

Lrmy wrote: I also once attempted to play a dwarf in Silverbrand in the not to distant past. This was extremely difficult when 90% of the dwarves didn't/woulden't speak English to me. Perhaps if I had known when the ones that did speak English were on I might have had a more active dwarf.

But would there have been more active dwarves if you had logged on anyway? The next Dwarf might have been English and the next and so on. But because you didn't log on they couldn't find an English speaker either and so logged off. The language indicator just supplies another reason not to log on. You would only log on if someone else decided to log on even though there were only language Y people online.

Hybryd · Post by **Hybryd** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:17 pm

Keikan Hiru wrote:I don't think this will help at all.
Quite the opposite, I even belive this will increase the gap between the two "fractions".

I agree!