Risk/Reward?!

[Lrmy]

Remember back a month ago when the drops were redone to equal a risk/reward for fighters? Well no offense but the system is not balanced at all.

Take an average fighter's gear at low prices
Boots- 4 silvers
Gloves-4 silvers
Armor- 10 silvers
Helmet- 4 silvers
weapons/shield- 5-10 silvers

Lets say 25-30 silver to arm an average character in decent fighting gear.

The average skeleton drops 5-7 coppers maybe. Lets say 6 average.

So that means around 4,000 skeletons to buy armor. But yes, you get something worth 20 coppers or so sometimes so maybe 3,000 skeletons minimum to buy a suite of armor. Also remember skeletons require a mid level skill to beat without spending 1 minute a skeleton (which something will likely break in that minute). Do remember that things break at a fairly decent rate now.
Oh, you broke your gloves at the skeletons? I hope you killed about 60 just to even out. Remember all your other wares took damage as well, so maybe 70 odd skeletons to even out.

Ogers are about 3X the strength as a strong skeleton and 2x the drops.
Demon skeletons are about 10x a strong skeleton and maybe 3x the drops.

Ask any fighter in game if they can afford a decent suite of armor. Let alone get 25 silvers.

To the anti-powergaming idiots that will likely think about posting some rubbish about how Illarion is not about items and skills, please ST(Smile)U... I know what Illarion is about.

[Juliana D'cheyne]

There are some places that aren't worth the risk to try to go to anymore... especially considering the wear and tear on weapons and armor. These same areas... for instance the skeletons, a group of people would go to fight them, RP while fighting, now there is not enough drop for a group, you will rarely see more then one fighter at a place, the drops are too small to encourage people to go together. The weapons and occasional armor that can be picked up from the NPC's are of such poor quality that you are lucky if they last until you leave. I broke four of them in one day.

[wolfsword]

they should have NPC's who transfer bones for 2 silverpieces....then alot of people would like to fight them

[Lrmy]

they should have NPC's who transfer bones for 2 silverpieces....then alot of people would like to fight them

Erm..that makes no sense.

[wolfsword]

i ment like when someone dies they drop their stuff so....the skeletons drop their bones and their worth alot of $? just another one of my crazy suggestions.....(in puzzle pirates you can get bones from killing skelletons but in Puzzle pirates ther worth more $)

[Keikan Hiru]

Before adding "Vendor-Junk"-items, you could aswell just increase the number of dropped copper coins.

[Estralis Seborian]

Hmm, I guess this adresses me. First off, the last update was a minor one to balance out some things. The quality and drop value was adjusted to the monster strength, not to the NPC prices or the change in wear of items. This stuff was changed independently and I cannot say anything about this.

So, the quality of items was spread over the whole range of available quality grades and in general, raised(!). One example of a change: In the old scripts, demons dropped items of quality 6-9. Now they drop quality 8-9. Only some monsters, like humans or goblins, drop lower quality now. I am repeating myself, the quality descriptions are rather discouraging, a quality 4 (slightly below average) item can appear as "poor", "worn", whatever. That those items break fast (again) might be a problem cause it lowers the value of those items drastically.

Many monsters drop items of fair quality, taking into account that an average item has a quality of 5 on a scale of 1 to 10. The way of the fighter should be to gather this stuff and sell it to NPCs or PCs. That NPCs don't buy many things and pay an incredible low amount for them, compared to the price they demand for them, is another subject. The dropped copper and silver is just a minor source of money and is some sort of candy, representing just a small share of the total dropped value.

One problem that exists is that most observations are based on skeletons and mummies due to the low amount of spawned races. Skeletons are rather weak, compared to other monsters. That there are few intermediate monsters is a problem. On a danger-meter, I placed skeletons on level 2 of 8 levels with demons being level 8 and demon skeletons being level 6. The drop value orientates on these levels, but it is true that the drop value does not rise accordingly to the increase in monster strength. For this, we simply lack a clear staging in items, like we have few lower class items (like clubs, daggers), a huge amount of intermediate items (chain mail, serinjah sword, many helmets) of almost same stats and some high end stuff that is ment to be rare (magical items). So, a demon skeleton cannot drop something "10 times better" than a normal skeleton for there is nothing "10 times better" than a scraped short sword.

I don't want to defend the monster drop as it is now, good suggestions are always welcome (keep in mind this candy thingy about the amount of dropped coins - the value of the drop is determined by the other items!). I clearly see that the drops don't fit in with the NPC prices and the wear of items. But... I'd say those things should be adjusted instead

One thing to add: Please compare the effort one has to spend to craft an item with the effort a fighter has to spend to get the same item by looting. If they are equal for all items, we have a perfect system. If not (and that is the case I guess), please post your observations.

[Lrmy]

I understand that skeletons drop helms and serinjahs and what not. These items are useless to almost everyone. No one will buy an average serinjah sword let alone a good one. Unless an item is quite good, very good, or excellent you will rarely be able to sell it to other players for much. Most helmets are never used by the average player because a flame helmet or a black visored helmet are easy to obtain in a high quality, even a good-excellent pot helmet is easy to get and is better than any helm a mummy or skeleton will drop. You would spend hours of time picking up everything a skeleton drops and getting encumbered and going a a merchant in another town to make a profit.

The problem - Warriors cannot afford what they need to fight. Weapons/armor from NPCs are not worth selling/using. Even Ogres and Gnolls aren't worth killing with the current drop system. Troll's either.

The Answer - More coins are dropped by NPCs or better usable items are dropped by NPCs.

[Mr. Cromwell]

One thing to add: Please compare the effort one has to spend to craft an item with the effort a fighter has to spend to get the same item by looting. If they are equal for all items, we have a perfect system. If not (and that is the case I guess), please post your observations.

I'm not completely sure what you mean by "effort" as a craftsman is likely to have a profit margin, while the fighter's "effort" is completely used as he purchases the armor, meaning that he'll pay "more" than the actual worth of the item. Theoretical "effort" is pretty nonsensical if the practice is:

Effort for item worth 100 copper -> Sells it for 150 copper
Has to buy it anyway for 150 copper = Effort of 150 copper

Fighters were in terms of money usage being the best and most energizing thing ever for the game economy. Who chose to make them bend over and why I dunno, but it wasn't a smart call.

[Lrmy]

One thing to add: Please compare the effort one has to spend to craft an item with the effort a fighter has to spend to get the same item by looting. If they are equal for all items, we have a perfect system. If not (and that is the case I guess), please post your observations.

I'm not completely sure what you mean by "effort" as a craftsman is likely to have a profit margin, while the fighter's "effort" is completely used as he purchases the armor, meaning that he'll pay "more" than the actual worth of the item. Theoretical "effort" is pretty nonsensical if the practice is:

Effort for item worth 100 copper -> Sells it for 150 copper
Has to buy it anyway for 150 copper = Effort of 150 copper

Fighters were in terms of money usage being the best and most energizing thing ever for the game economy. Who chose to make them bend over and why I dunno, but it wasn't a smart call.

Would just like to add on to that...
The money in game has to come from some source, right? Well yes, so we have NPC merchants and NPC monsters. Lately NPC merchants have been buying less wares (to stop the abuse of people selling 25 of one item for 20 silvers or something crude like that I guess). Fine with me. But, monsters are also dropping less! ARG! So that means the economy is going to go down through no fault of the in game players/world.

[Nitram]

There doesn't have to be that much money input into the game. There is a lot of money ingame. The only problem ( and the reason that really kills the IG economy ) is that some players sit on the money they earn. They have many many many many shiny coins that never see a different place then their depot.

Much money is in the game but it just lays around and does nothing.

And if we bump more money into the game, even more money will rest in those depots forever.

( Note that I do not speak about inactive players )

Nitram

[Lrmy]

There doesn't have to be that much money input into the game. There is a lot of money ingame. The only problem ( and the reason that really kills the IG economy ) is that some players sit on the money they earn. They have many many many many shiny coins that never see a different place then their depot.

Much money is in the game but it just lays around and does nothing.

And if we bump more money into the game, even more money will rest in those depots forever.

( Note that I do not speak about inactive players )

Nitram

What would a new character do? Frank Joe and Sue can't make money because they want to be fighters new to the island. So, just tell them? "Sorry, you can't buy anything decent unless you want to take a different rout with your character or spend countless hours working on selling junk to npcs"?

[Llama]

A fighter has no way of using the money that is already in the economy, unless you want people stealing it off other people.

People who'd have lots of money are crafters and very good fighters, none of which would interact to BUY anything from a fighter (except maybe 2cp entrials...)

There was a time when fighters were useful because they were the only ones that could bring thread in, helping them form part of the economy, currently they're not anything except potential buyers.

I suggest you increase the monster drop money, its not viable to fighters this way.

[Mr. Cromwell]

@Estralis & Nitters
..Yeah?
If the money is already in the system, but is not being used.. how on earth does it kill the IG economy? Please elaborate. The people who have money, are most likely not going to use it more no matter what you do with the flow of new money. It seems like a strange solution to start bringing in less money, since that isn't IMO likely to create more demand for PC goods.. On the contrary. So please explain..

Basically, it's slightly retarted to shift more NPC-drops into useless goods because the same sellable goods are being crafted by crafters to advance levels and then those goods are being dumped to the NPC traders. It's already a contested zone, so don't push more people there. Either give the monsters: 1.) Really usable goods 2.) Unique goods and materials sold to PCs 3.) Non-craftable goods that can be sold to NPCs (even though one might ask, wtf is the point?) 4.) Drop the item-focus and give out more coins (This is what it's going to be anyway, by giving coins you just eliminate one annoying middleman) 5.) Any combination of the above.

Not to mention how silly the pricing of the goods at least used to be. Ooh, a full leather armor (45cp) or a chainmail (15cp).. chainmail weights four times the leather armor. If you are deep in some godforsaken tunnel (knowing that you must kill the monsters again if you want to get out).. why would you ever take a chain shirt? Dead weight.

[Nitram]

Money is constandly bumped into the system. And stores up at some players. So more and more money is bumped in and the same thing happens. There is no circulation of the money. There is a constant flow in one direction.

And thats bad.

[Avalyon el'Hattarr]

How's it bad? It's just like the RL..
Those that know how to make money flow in their direction, deserve to be rich and afford a future investment in somenthing hehe

edit: stop looking in my depot!

[Mr. Cromwell]

@Nitters

The harder and harder aquiring money is made for the players, the more "valuable" money becomes for them. This also, potentially leads into the money stocking up more and more whenever possible as they are more reluctant to spend it (and correspondingly this also increases the value of the already stockpiled money). Of course, those who have to spend all their money are getting royally shafted, while those who operate under lavish profit margins are getting richer and richer. Those who don't have money or have to use it to make ends meet are in trouble. I don't understand why you wanna hurt them. Even if the money piling up in depots was a problem*, you are going after the wrong people. You are shafting fighters, the big spenders - the cornerstone of the PC-PC economy. Hello?

I think I have some authority in this matter, considering that I once had the by far richest character in the game (Maybe even richest still.. who, by the way, never used the money).

*Not really, it isn't.. as you say, it's not being used. It has no effect whatsoever on the game, just potential effect.. and what are the odds of that money being used on something? Minisclule.. Simply because there are nonexistant ways of meaningfully spend or invest money in illa, save for equipment need or a house. If they don't need anything now, they won't need it tomorrow. It's just bits and bytes.

[Estralis Seborian]

1.) Really usable goods

Maybe you can elaborate this. What is usable and what not? Is it the quality or the kind of item? Concerning the quality, I stated that all ranges are covered. But don't exspect skeletons and mummies to drop high quality stuff. They pose no threat to an intermediate fighter and for a group, they are just cannon fodder. I am really curious why the items dropped by monsters are considered junk for I know the quality numbers but as it seems, the meaning of those numbers has changed alot during the last weeks.

2.) Unique goods and materials sold to PCs

Rare items like elemental wands, magical weapons and even archmage rings are dropped by monsters. Those monsters aren't spawned, though. But this is a different subject IMO.

3.) Non-craftable goods that can be sold to NPCs (even though one might ask, wtf is the point?)

Good idea, in special the "can be sold to NPCs" part! I second this.

4.) Drop the item-focus and give out more coins (This is what it's going to be anyway, by giving coins you just eliminate one annoying middleman)

Hmm, from the very first day of me playing Illarion, I know the game like one slays a monster, grabs the l00t and sells it to Eliza or anyone who wants to buy it. Interaction with PCs, hot spot shop, walking the island to bring home the loot, all this is what I consider a vital aspect of the gameplay. Standing in a room, infront of a spawning point, slaying hundreds of monsters to earn 20cp each and going home after two hours of farming isn't really favourable. Some monsters do drop coins, one could argue if it could be a bit more or less here and there, but raising this amount by an order of magnitude is beyond discussion IMO.

5.) Any combination of the above.

A combination of 1+2+3 is the way to go, but I think one must not put the cart before the horse - see below.

I think the following measures are promising:

-Spawn all kinds of monsters somewhere. A demon as boss in a deep dungeon would be cool
-Make all monsters vincible by a reasonable amount of chars
-Change the lookAt description of items in a way that an average item is labelled as average and a slightly below average item is labelled as slightly below average and not scrap
-Assure that items of intermediate quality and durability have a real use in terms of wear and stats
-Make all craftable and looted items sellable to a NPC. Somewhere. Not everywhere.
-Make up fair prices for items, taking into account their stats and the effort a crafter has to spend to craft it
-Make up a fair ratio between the amount of money a NPC pays for an item and the amount of money he demands for the very same item

[Estralis Seborian]

Well, some words about the role of money in the Illa economy. First off, RL-history has shown that a constant but low inflation is the way to go for having a stable economy and having a deflation kills an economy (Great Depression, anyone?).

So, what we need is a constant flow of money into the system and a constant flow of money out of the system with the latter being a tiny bit smaller than than the first one. Money that is stored in depots and is covered by dust can be considered out of system, but it is not. This money manipulates the felt value of money, let us call this the "flute effect" [1]. Let us assume everybody saves his money and spends nothing, prices for normal items will drop (not rise!) and the "working money" will decrease more and more. For further reading, refer to the Great Depression and its causes.

The most favourable economy is also one in which there is much trade PC-PC and PC-NPC for all this is interaction. This requires a demand and an offer of goods. Best thing is that the offer almost fits the demand, trivial as it is. Now let us assume we pump lots of coins into the economy. The first assumption would be "Fine, everybody has more money and buys more stuff". But this will not be the case in Illarion. Only a small share of the money will be used to buy stuff, the rest goes into the depot or sometimes into huge buildings, but not to your local trader. Thus, the amount of money in the system rises but the "working money" stays the same -> offer exceeds the demand ->

So, without proper money sinks, the amount of money pumped into the system cannot rise too much in order not to kill off the economy totally. Instead, measures have to be taken to draw money from the chars so the driving force for earning money rises. Those measures are services like the teleporters (those are not a money sink, though ).

[1]: Flute effect: The totally useless item "flute" was traded for incredible amounts of money in Illarion during tgod. It could not be produced nor looted. Because there was nothing else to spend one's money for, some people saved hundreds of silver ingots to buy a flute.

[Juliana D'cheyne]

I am sorry, but I don't understand all of the economy of the discussion. I can tell you though, my char has steadily lost coin fighting... paying more then she gets for weapons and armor so doesn't buy much else then absolute necessity:

1. If the clothes are finally shown, mine will be threadbare or non-existant.

2. With the making of potion taken out of the game, that is another source fighters will not be putting money back from since they will buy from NPC's

3. With the price of "good" food so high (strawberry cakes), my char no longer buys what would like to, but just the cheapest can find.

4. Forget trying to buy the "best" armor, but just fairly good ones that can get by with and just not try to fight those NPC's you would need better armor and shields for (the last shield bought... spent 4 silver for and broke after a week).


5. My char used to buy a portal for convenience to travel back after a fight....she now walks.

6.No longer tries to go with a group of fighters.... there is too little copper and drop to split ((which means less RP))

7. Most weapons and armor dropped are not worth saving and trying to sell considering you will get encumbered sooner however in the past, have used at least the average ones to fight with, but they now break easily (at least for me), or the NPC's are too strong to be able to fight with those weapons.

8. I would imagine that for most fighter chars, there is probably less time spent in town ((RPing)) because it takes longer to earn coin.

[Julius]

There are other ways to make money. Julius easily makes around 100 silvers a dwarven month off non fighting income, not to mention the meager 4 silvers a week off training..

[Lrmy]

1.) Really usable goods

Maybe you can elaborate this. What is usable and what not? Is it the quality or the kind of item?

First you need to take a look at smithing. Swords are easy to make and fairly cheap. So a quite good or very good longsword is not hard to find though, a good longsword is hard to sell because of the ease in getting a better quality one. So a good longsword is not a usable monster drop. Same goes for helmets. Helmets are odd because none of the ones I have ever seen dropped by NPCs are useful all low level helmets to make for a smith or a bad quality(bad quality consists of average-very bad or the worse one quality). As Juliana mentioned, fighters can barely get decent armor let alone good armor, which costs around 20-50 silvers. And it has to cost that much or the smith makes little profit.

Anything below used for an item is also normally not going to be able to be sold to anyone other than an NPC. Repairing is useless. Look up how it works if you want to know why, I don't care to explain. The reason something below used isn't worth selling/picking up is the fact that it will break in a decent amount of time and no one will want to pay for something that will break in a few days.

I hope that answers that question and...

-Spawn all kinds of monsters somewhere. A demon as boss in a deep dungeon would be cool Wink
-Make all monsters vincible by a reasonable amount of chars
-Change the lookAt description of items in a way that an average item is labelled as average and a slightly below average item is labelled as slightly below average and not scrap
-Assure that items of intermediate quality and durability have a real use in terms of wear and stats
-Make all craftable and looted items sellable to a NPC. Somewhere. Not everywhere.
-Make up fair prices for items, taking into account their stats and the effort a crafter has to spend to craft it
-Make up a fair ratio between the amount of money a NPC pays for an item and the amount of money he demands for the very same item

Sounds like a great idea.

[Lrmy]

There are other ways to make money. Julius easily makes around 100 silvers a dwarven month off non fighting income, not to mention the meager 4 silvers a week off training..

You clearly don't get the point of this thread.

[Julius]

Yes. The point is that the skeletons and other npcs don't give enough reward for all the stuff that warriors have to buy. I understand. I simply made a statement that you can get another profession. End.

[Juliana D'cheyne]

Yes. The point is that the skeletons and other npcs don't give enough reward for all the stuff that warriors have to buy. I understand. I simply made a statement that you can get another profession. End.

I guess it depends on your RP for that char, my fighter char knows no other profession, nor would imagine changing it...... does illa then want no fighter chars? It is a profession.... one that now... no copper can be earned from and less time to RP.

[Julius]

Well, do you collect the entrails? Those are a substantial income. Also, killing pigs for the 3 things that they drop and saving them up in a large number can give you even more. Fighting shouldn't only be against fighting npcs.

[Avalyon el'Hattarr]

Eh.. then your char is not a fighter, he's a butcher.

[Julius]

Not exactly. Not until he makes a business out of it, I guess. Who cares anyone?

P.S - I have haven't really trained Julius in a week. RP is so much funner then sitting in the crypt or graveyard for an hour.

[Lrmy]

Well, do you collect the entrails? Those are a substantial income. Also, killing pigs for the 3 things that they drop and saving them up in a large number can give you even more. Fighting shouldn't only be against fighting npcs.

Substantial income from entrails? No. Pigs? No. Both these things are NPCs. The only way to gain money from non-NPC fighting is banditing and this discussion has nothing to do with banditing, just NPCs.

[Julius]

You don't understand the word substantial then. It doesn't mean you will become a billionaire with 300 entrails, but piled with the money that you actually can make from fighting npcs it's pretty good. I can make 9 silvers a day ig off pig stuff.