~ Building Rules / Bauregeln ~

[Dariya]

It's still a 'guild' and not a settlement yet, according to the Devs that put in those nice teleporters. ... Ever consider asking some other Guilds to join with you to make it a 'town'?

as I said, officially it IS a guild, cause otherwise we wouldnt have been able to build our longhouse. But what do the devs and their teleporters have to do with it? we don't want no teleporters, nor portals to be used on the territory of the Northmark, cause as you can read on Moonsilver, Norodaj don't really like magical stuff, even refuse it.
and as long as there are not more chars wanting to join the Northmark for more than a week, it's not worthwhile discussing about making it a town ... and actually, we DO love and like our little settlement the way it is. Which does not mean that we don't want to visit or even join more chars don't get me wrong with that

I remember that whole place 'teemed' with bandits. Yes, there are the Bandits to the east and the Gnolls in the woods, but in general, both the path up there from the Lighthouse and around the Building is pretty safe, created by the editors. I know, Dusty has been there many times, and only recently has been able to keep from cutting his own foot off with a sword, so I know it is safe, just have to know where the monsters are.

sure you are safe if you know where the monsters are ... as everywhere else on the map. Everyone knows that there are dangerous, less dangerous and safe places.
But you want more monsters to roam around? Fine, then please, dear devs, also consider to set up more crosses, cause there still are chars who can't defend themselves, neither afford an escort.

That's the point the Devs. are trying to get to, why aren't the 'towns' trading more? If players don't have the time, they shouldn't decide to stay far off in the wilderness, should they? Many don't so the point is moot. The Northmark 'chose' to live far away as other guilds have, and the members know that when they join. If you make it a town, it will be easier I think.

regarding making it a town, see above

regarding "time", I hope you don't want to tell me that only players with plenty of time to walk the entire isle are welcome.

actually I mainly use my time ingame for rp, not for gaining skills, producing wares, selling them. For example my first char, which I've been playing for about a year now, simply has insufficient skills to earn much money. Until now I simply considered it not being that important, I put my main attention on the rp ... maybe I was wrong. Of course, with my rp I sometimes produces wares and trade, to earn some coppers ... but this can be taken literally: coppers. My chars never had much money and most probably never will to afford escorts, travel books, teleporters and the like. So they won't be able to spend a safe live on the isle? :rolls: well, maybe they should consider leaving Gobaith again ...

... don't get me wrong, I don't want to offend you nor anybody else, but you put your emphasis on rp or lack of rp ... in that point I totally agree. And trading for sure is a brilliant chance for rp, even though most trades are like "hi", exchaning wares and money and "bye" ... no real rp in my eyes. If rp in illa will have to go together with spending money in the future, it definitely isn't my kind of game anymore, sorry

Then hire some porters with warriors as escort. We need more RP opportunities like that. Realistically, Caravans always had escorts against attack. How come very few people travel or 'Party' together? It's because we have the 'ability' to do it ourselves, when really, the game would progress with RP if we were forced not to be able to do everything ourselves. We can't wear armor while crafting, and the cost of wearing armor is a loss of carrying ability. Choose one or the other, let someone else 'complement' your character's 'deficiency'.

regarding spending money on paid escorts, see above

regarding "doing everything yourself" I can only speak for myself: my chars definitely are not able to do everything theirselves, as I explained above. Actually, I know a few more chars not being able to.

I ask again, why do you have to have that mobile 'warehouse' to trade? Why can't you go to town with some 10-20 wares on a market day, or at a marketplace, sell them and buy only what you need to travel back with or even hire people to help carry? Why does everyone have to trade 500 Ores or 1000Bricks, etc. It seems unrealistic and smells like Powergaming (I should know .

I don't trade 500 ores or 1000 bricks. I trade 20 bottles of cider or 30 pairs of shoes, sometimes 10 soup bowls. Oh, a lie, I admit, lately the Northmark has been trading 1.000 wooden boards but you get my point, I suppose

anyway, either with or without a general Trolls Bane depot I would play along with every solution and change, as I used to do until now.
Still I hope I am allowed to put down my thoughts in words ... which I did way more than enough now

[Korm Kormsen]

a lot of good observations and points of view.

using in part what was said above, in part my own ideas:

the problem is, guild is not like guild.
to mee it seems, we got four kinds of guilds
1) guilds with political goals (the two roses, the knights)
2) settlement companies (the orcs bloodscull, nordmark, tol vanima and silberbrand*)
3) professional associations (druids, farmers, miners, tailors, merchants)
4) other groups (mercenaries, thieves, woodsmen, etc)

* i include silberbrand and tol vanima, because they are not "open" for everyone. so they are settlements, but no towns.

the necessities of the different guilds are not the same.
tailors, carpenters and smiths need a workshop in an existing town. mercenaries and merchants need an office/offices in one or various towns. farmers need fields and a shed near a town.
miners need a shed near a mine or sheds near mines.
druids something, that does not disrupt nature, and is far from civilisation.
settlements (especially group-oriented) need a place apart, where to build.
the thieves are a specil case. they should be able, to get caves below or near towns. (caves, the IG authorities not necessary know about and with "invisible" i.e. teleport entrances)

so, i think, everybody, every "guild", who wants to build more than one screen away from existing buildings should present a project to the staff.
and, the staff should erase the building(s), if the projected ideas are not followed.

existing guildbuildings, that are "missplaced" should be replaced (after consulting with the owners) to a "valid" location.

but, all that would not help for nothing, if we don't address some basic points.
1) we have too many cosmopolitan chars.
they beam from the mine to TB, smith a little, beam to TV to make some handles, beam back, to smith the handles to their blades.
2) the current project, to unify all "states" in one council will make the game boring.
3) players make elves, that mine, and dwarves, that sing.
4) we nearly everywhere got modern political systems.

what to do, to better the game atmosphere and the use of the existing towns?
to 1) let mages be the only ones, that can teleport themselves, and maybe, one or two persons.everybody else should walk! (i know, i would be a pity about the new teleporters, that work like a subway - and about the tax, they produce)
make the lands smaller,(or at least the influence of law and order) so that there will be a lot of wilderness for robbers and monsters, to attack travellers.
to 2) let the "states" stay independent, but needing each other, by making even more differences in the crafting possibilities. (the new farming differences are a good start)
to 3) either manually or by script castigate "wrong" behaviour.
(the orcish knight, the lizzard smith, the evil elf, the killer cook, the dwarven druid...)
to 4) replace democracy by oligarcies and monarkies.

and, here i agree fully, replace the TB depots by another system to move goods.

that could be, as mentioned by siltaris, (virtual) carriers, or even better, real NPC carriers.
the Npc carriers could be moving depots for just one char, that follow a char against payment .
there could be introduced the skill "trading". the better the skill, the more followers a merchant can handle simultaneously.
so, at last fighters can do something else, than killing skeletons by the dozen. they could either guard traders, or demand bridge/road toll, or even outright rob trading caravans. (take over NPC carriers)

when movement of chars and movement of goods would become more realistic, more difficult, this urge to build in the wilderness, would stop on its own.

[Miklorius]

A longer real-life-period for guilds until they are allowed to build should deal with most "we found a guild to build"-guilds.

The idea of guilds who have power in cities is very interessting (although the towns are actual to small to have some rivaling guilds).

Use the caravans as temporary depots for moving large amounts of wares if you really wanna deactive the troll's-bane-network at the long end.

[Korm Kormsen]

juniper,

It's still a 'guild' and not a settlement yet,...

yes. it is a guild, tecnically.
but it was presented to the staff as a settlement. and it was accepted as a settlement. according to the cultural background of the sought after population.

Ever consider asking some other Guilds to join with you to make it a 'town'?

considered, yes. accepted, no.
according to the illarion setting and the norodaj culture, it is planned and realized as a barbarian principality = Jarldom,(and meritocracy) to function in the feudal fief system.
but, as we can't expect the staff, to gift us with a complete town/state, we have to build it up slowly.
later, when the settlement is fully implemented, the founding of guilds in/under the then town will be wellcome.

It's my understanding that is what needs to happen. Until then it's a far distant place that few stay at. Half of your 'membership are characters with the same PO. How 'active' is that, and how long can it go on? No need to answer, many Guilds are the same way.

our 24 citizen-chars are led by 19 POs. there are only two POs, that have "multiple char-ship" and i am one of them. and, it being very difficult, to have multiple chars in the same surrounding, i will be glad, to let some of my chars permadie, when other char-citizens get more active...

I remember that whole place 'teemed' with bandits. ...both the path up there from the Lighthouse and around the Building is pretty safe, created by the editors.

that is wrong. the bandits at the place, where now the farm is situated, where all beaten by the future Nordlanders in a miniquest.
when they all were killed, the staff moved the spawns to the east.
no more monsters, monsterspawns were alterated in the territory.

I know, Dusty has been there many times,

so dusty gets old and forgetting, it seems ;-))


so, once i got that far offtopic, i complete the discourse.

after the allready sheduled building of a second farm, the plan is, to build fortifications, a tavern, and several houses and workshops for rent.
(no citizen-built buildings in this fief-system)
inhabitants can be all chars, that are not banned.
citizens can become all humans, dwarves and lizards, that can speak at least some of the old language.
clanmembers can become barbarians and humans, that speak the old language. (and are accepted by the clan leaders)
guildmasters, officials have to be clanmembers.

so, you see, a really medieval settlement. no modern BS.
unfair? yes! but fitting to the setting of illarion.

and, be assured, that PO Bogan and i will do everything we can, to not get a teleporter. even if Nordmark would become the biggest town of the isle.(what will not happen, because we have not enough players, that could stand non modern systems)

back to topic:
merchant caravans would be the best alternatives to teleporting and "teleporting" TB-depots.
it would be nice, if that would be with beasts of burden, but easier with NPC carriers. (no new graphics needed)

Miklorius,

i don't think, that the existing towns are too small.
a workshop on ground level, and a sleeping/feasting hall upstairs is all, a medieval guild needs.
all towns in illa are too big in their dimensions. and the houses too much afar from each other.
for instance, the combined ground of the former sea horse and the library in TB is big enough for an entire town. and all those greens in TB are not reasonable for a medieval town.
inside of townwalls buildings should stand wall to wall, have a cellar and a upper floor each, with small paved streets instead of tree-laden parks.

[Miklorius]

Miklorius,

i don't think, that the existing towns are too small. (...).

I was referring to the idea, that different guilds in a town have different goals and interests and have to work against each other a bit. But for this, the political systems are not strong enough.

[Korm Kormsen]

Miklorius,

i would love, to find that out.

remember the last three elections in trolls bane?

mostly bitching about who might vote, who not, and why...

imagine a town, governed by a fighter or else, who gets the job, because the guildmasters selected him/her...

[Siltaris]

I'm sorry, but you're council idea won't work. It's hard enough to get players together in one meeting, much less every time a proposal is issued. Too much work for those players.

It would be up to the Guild who is willing to build somewehere in the wildernerness to organise such a meeting.. or at least to get permission by all important towns. This would force them to interacti with the towns and it would force people to hang in the guild over a long time.
Well, maybe it is not the perfect solution, since it is much work for the town leaders to deal with every single planing aplication.
To prevent the Council to be overrun by applications, the barrier for the Guilds to be able to build somewhere in the wilderness must be quite high. If the requirements are fullfilled by a Guild (e.g. 6 month having been active, 5 members), then you have to ask for planning permission at the 'Council'.
Still an idea worth to think about, imo.

Besides, I understand some of the Staff would like to see more 'Dissension' between towns, not 'Unification'. The game is stagnant and no 'fun' if every town agrees to protect the other. Where is the possible 'angst' in that? Not very exciting, and creates more work for the GM's to 'invent' things to keep players entertained.

At the same time, there are some of the Staff having the opposite opinion for sure; similar situation within the player community.
In my opinion, a stable political situation is something Illa has not seen fo nearly a year now. Such stable situation might be not so exciting like wars might be. But: it contributes much to atmosphere, if you have strong and long governing leaders who care for the town and the inhabitants. It contributes much to atmoshphere when you know that there is a certain level of safety and that the towns will never stand alone, but have allies.
In my very own opinion, I think that instead asking for more political conflicts, people should use these times of peace to create something on their own. To play IN a stable system. To be part of it. They should use the chance to become active by themselves to create something. Do make quests for their own. Or try to become part of the political party to change something from within. Currently, there are only a very few people who really support the administration and rather 'use' it and/or do really care for it. But such administration offers completely new RP opportunities only a very few chars have used up to now.
Furthermore, if people really want war, then I think that people should see it as a challenge to set up a stable opponent party. The conflict should grow - there should be a reason for war. Then people will notice on the one hand that it takes much time to create something stable and that it is hard to motivate players to keep the chars play on for the particular party. Then, maybe, people will also notice that political stability is something with value and something what is not given and something you have to work for and spend time for it. To destroy such stability is much easier then to set it up.

remember the last three elections in trolls bane?
mostly bitching about who might vote, who not, and why...
imagine a town, governed by a fighter or else, who gets the job, because the guildmasters selected him/her...

Actually, the leaders were elected by citizens. It have been fair elections and everyone could have intervened with reasonable arguments. However, there was nobody who had any interest in becoming really active to change something in Troll's Bane. The few opponents were a) their chars were rather inactive; b) their chars were not citizens if TB; c) I had the impression that the moanings were just to have some fun for themselves on the board, rather than having really the will to change something in a postive way. Consequently, the impression of this 'bitching' was there... maybe.
Actually, TB currently is led by a fighter. She has been elected by citizens for 4 RL months during fair elections.
I think that a selection for life span of a leader in TB is not possible for a town like TB. Although monarchy was more common in medieval times, in towns politicians and people with power still were very important. TB is not comparable to the barbarians nor to the Knighthood Grey Rose not to Silverbrand, where leaders are selected for an unlimtited time. We should be happy that we have both - monarchy and a certain level of democracy in towns on Gobiath.
However, in TB there is only a very rough democracy, not comparable at all to today's unerstanding of democracy.



That's all what comes to my mind rigth now

[Siltaris]

all towns in illa are too big in their dimensions. and the houses too much afar from each other.
for instance, the combined ground of the former sea horse and the library in TB is big enough for an entire town. and all those greens in TB are not reasonable for a medieval town.
inside of townwalls buildings should stand wall to wall, have a cellar and a upper floor each, with small paved streets instead of tree-laden parks.

In general I would agree with the statement that towns in Illa are too big. Since medievel towns were compact, one house next to the other, small and dirty closes, maybe even confuse towns which made the impression of being unplanned.

However, the reasons that the towns in Illa are different are:
1) first of all the graphic engine. It forces to build houses far away from each other. The space in the north and east of building must be kept free, becasue of the houses' 'shadow'. The space in the south and west must be visible and kept free to have access to houses, since door can only be placed there.
2) Compact towns without any green would hardly be accepted by players, since they like to be in nice and beautiful places. With the limited graphic engine, it is difficult to make nice looking townscapes. Consequently, towns are 'improved' in their attractiveness by having some green in between to attract players to go and stay there.

These two reasons do weight so much, that in my opinion there is no other opportunity than having towns we currently have.

[Lennier]

I thank you all your constructive ideas and proposals. I want to make a summary now, a kind of mix of your and my ideas.


Depotsystem:

What we have now?
Each settlement has local depots and a Trolls Bane depot anywhere. The reason for all Trolls Bane depots is the lack of a transportsystem. But local depots are not very important by this. Trolls Bane depots are the most important. All other are a kind of having some more storage room.


What i think how it should be:
The influence of local depots has to rise. The towns need more importance than meeting places for trades, stories, conflicts. And we still need an global system, because of the lack of an real transport system.

So why not a real synthesis?

• My idea is to implement "Gobaith-Depots" in market areas of the towns - only 1 Depot for every town (Trolls Bane, Silverbrand, Varshikar, Tol Vanima, Greenbriar). In result of them all Trolls Bane depots outside of Trolls Bane get removed.
• In public construtions of the towns (workshop, libary etc) will be local depots of the town.
• In private constructions (private houses, guild houses and buildings of groups) inside and outside of the towns will be local depots (depots of different flats, Grey Refuge, Nordmark, Caelum, Druids, Farmer Union, Bloodskull etc.)

By this the Towns get the function of real market places, where the main of the trade of large numbers of goods will be exchanged. People have to transport their goods to the next town if the costumers really want it. This also should be an important thing within the question about the location of the next guild house. It should be in near of the town if i want a good connection.


This is the first part. The next follows within the next hours

[AlexRose]

I thank you all your constructive ideas and proposals. I want to make a summary now, a kind of mix of your and my ideas.


Depotsystem:

What we have now?
Each settlement has local depots and a Trolls Bane depot anywhere. The reason for all Trolls Bane depots is the lack of a transportsystem. But local depots are not very important by this. Trolls Bane depots are the most important. All other are a kind of having some more storage room.


What i think how it should be:
The influence of local depots has to rise. The towns need more importance than meeting places for trades, stories, conflicts. And we still need an global system, because of the lack of an real transport system.

So why not a real synthesis?

• My idea is to implement "Gobaith-Depots" in market areas of the towns - only 1 Depot for every town (Trolls Bane, Silverbrand, Varshikar, Tol Vanima, Greenbriar). In result of them all Trolls Bane depots outside of Trolls Bane get removed.
• In public construtions of the towns (workshop, libary etc) will be local depots of the town.
• In private constructions (private houses, guild houses and buildings of groups) inside and outside of the towns will be local depots (depots of different flats, Grey Refuge, Nordmark, Caelum, Druids, Farmer Union, Bloodskull etc.)

By this the Towns get the function of real market places, where the main of the trade of large numbers of goods will be exchanged. People have to transport their goods to the next town if the costumers really want it. This also should be an important thing within the question about the location of the next guild house. It should be in near of the town if i want a good connection.


This is the first part. The next follows within the next hours

What happens to our items within the Troll's Bane depots? They change to Gobaith Depot?

[Avalyon el'Hattarr]

One more addition to Alex's question:
How can one transport huge ammounts of goods from a private guild somewhere far away form the town, to the town? I think that this whole "global thing" depots, should wait until a transport system is implementated.

[Nitram]

What happens to our items within the Troll's Bane depots? They change to Gobaith Depot?

I think it would stay in the Trollsbane Depot.

You will be informed early enougth if that change happens so you can transfer your good from the TB depot to your local depot.

@Avalyon:
Its the very personal problem of the guild that it build something in the middle of nowhere. Who wants to be far away from everything, has to carry everything over far distance

Nitram

[Order of the Hammer]

Not that fair since in the middle ages all transporting over large distances was done by caravans
And btw, it's not the guild's fault that per example the mine that supplies them is faaaar away from any town.

[Lennier]

Take a look at page one. I changed the rules a "bit".

In result of it all planned projects which are not began until now, get stoped and need to be discussed again.

In remembering at the plan to remove the trolls bane depots from outside of trolls bane very soon, you really should think about the location of your next projects.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Blickt auf Seite 1 dieses Anschlags. Ich habe die Regeln "etwas" geändert.

In Folge dessen werden alle geplanten aber noch nicht begonnen Bauprojekte eingestellt. Sie müssen in Hinblick auf die neuen Regeln neu überdacht werden.

In Erinnerung an den Plan die Trolls Bane Depots außerhalb von Trolls Bane nun sehr bald wegzunehmen, sollte Bauplätze besser überdacht werden.

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... sc&start=0

[Korm Kormsen]

ich moechte an dieser stelle zwei anregungen geben.

1) preis fuer Brunnen in die liste fuegen.

2) ueberlegen, ob man nicht burggraeben zu den befestigungsanlagen hinzufuegen kann.
(vorschlag: der baumeister stellt dort, wo der graben hin soll, ein extradepot auf, und macht einen flecken wueste oder sumpf.
die interessierten spieler muessen eine zu bestimmende anzahl sand oder lehm in dies depot schaufeln, wenn sie das haben, "fuellt" der baumeister den graben voll wasser)

---------
suggesting:
to include a well to the list.
and to think about introducing moats.

[Lennier]

1. ja, die liste selbst habe ich noch nicht fertig gemacht...


2. derart spezielles habe ich nicht in den kostenplänen. sowas mache ich spontant, wenn ich es für passend halte, samt preis.

[Lennier]

The Pricelist is changed now too: http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... 03&start=0

If you have proposals and ideas, tell here.

[Dantagon Marescot]

Chair - 10 boards of apple, 10 nägel

White chair - 10 boards of apple, 10 nägel, 5 white cloth

you mean nails, right?

[Lennier]

right, changed

[Lord Arcia]

Will all previously agreed on prices remain the same?

[Lennier]

Agreed projects are not involved.. Would produce too much confusion. No, your house does not become more expensive

[Lord Arcia]

I love you.

Back to topic though. I think parquet floor require a bit too many nails...

I think the price should be reduced down to 8. Two on each side of the tile.

[Lennier]

Versicherungen
Regierungen, Gruppen und Besitzer von Häusern können nun im Resultat für die enormen Schäden, die ein Feuer oder Quest ausrichten kann, Versicherungen erwerben.

Die Versicherung hat eine Laufzeit von 1 ingamen Jahr, also 4 realen Monaten und schützt das Eigentum eurer Chare gegen Zerstörung. Die anfallenden Kosten sind von der Größe der Gebäude abhängig. Je angefangene 100 Tiles pro Stockwerk werden 4 Silber berechnet. Ein Eigenheimbesitzer von einem kleinen Haus wird auch kaum über die 4 Silber hinaus kommen. Entsprechend teuer wird es aber für große Gebäudekompelxe, wie die Graue Zuflucht oder Vanima, wo die Versicherung gut 70 Silbermünzen kosten wird.

Im Ausgleich werden alle Schäden, die durch Feuer und Quests entstanden sind repariert. Wer solche ine Versicherung nicht will, oder wer glaubt, dass es sich für ihn nicht lohnt, der muß im Ernstfall die Reperatur selber bezahlen.


Edit: Änderung auf Basis von 1 Ingamen jahr anstatt einem realen.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Insurance
Goverments and owners of houses can by insurances now, than result of the really big damage, which can be caused by fires and quest.

The Insurnances goes about 1 ingame year - 4 real months - and protects the "property" of your chars. The costs depands on the size of buildings and begin with 4 silver for a began patch of 100 tiles per floor. Therefore owners of little houses have to pay only 4 silver coins. Large buildings like they Grey Refuge or the Constructions of Vanima goes up to 70 silver coins - but there is not only 1 owner, that are communities or towns.

In exchange for the insurance you get repaired all stuff which is damages by wildfires or big quests for free. All, who does not want the insurance have to pay the repairing costs theirself.


EDIT: Timescale is changed on base of ingame years.

[Korm Kormsen]

do you accept partial downpayment and qouotas?

akzeptierst du anzahlungen und raten?



where to pay? - wo zahlt man?

korm

[Lennier]

Das hat sich durch den Edit im vorhergehenden Post wohl gerade erübrigt. Nein, Keine Ratenzahlung. Gezahlt wird nat. beim Baumeister.

[Lennier]

Some minor changes in the lists in the begin of this thread. Price of grounds decreased, implemention of glass ingots for windows and other things.

An new idea i have, which i want to discuss and ask for your mean to this: Rising prices of tools with the number of ready exsisting tools in the same settlment/house to force some differences between the settlements in future.

An example:

A guild owns a new house and want some tools now. At first a workbench, which could be bhought for maybe 20 silver.

Weeks later the same guild want to buy a smithery. The question is. It should be allowed or not? Of course it should. But how to force differences? Maybe by rising the price for the second tool. So the second would cost maybe 30 silver coins and so on....

Code: Select all

1st tool:   20 silvercoins
2nd:        30
3rd:        50
4th:        80
5th:        130
...

[Lrmy]

Some minor changes in the lists in the begin of this thread. Price of grounds decreased, implemention of glass ingots for windows and other things.

An new idea i have, which i want to discuss and ask for your mean to this: Rising prices of tools with the number of ready exsisting tools in the same settlment/house to force some differences between the settlements in future.

An example:

A guild owns a new house and want some tools now. At first a workbench, which could be bhought for maybe 20 silver.

Weeks later the same guild want to buy a smithery. The question is. It should be allowed or not? Of course it should. But how to force differences? Maybe by rising the price for the second tool. So the second would cost maybe 30 silver coins and so on....

Code: Select all

1st tool:   20 silvercoins
2nd:        30
3rd:        50
4th:        80
5th:        130
...

I like the idea. Though, lets say a guild wants to buy 3 tools at once(first purchase of tools for the guild). Will that cost them 100 silvers? or 60?

[Korm Kormsen]

i see one weak point in this idea.

as an example, let us say, that in varshikar three new guilds are founded.

so either each guild can buy two tools for 50 silver - result: 6 tools in varshikar for the total price of 150 silver.

or the counting is for the entire town/settlement. - result:
first guild buys two tools for 50 silver
second guild buys two tools for 130 silver
third guild buys two tools for 260 silver

i think, this shows my point.
either the system does not work, or it works unfair.

i would prefer to rethink the whole crafting and trading "system".

korm

[Thorin Solfgar]

I second Korm concerns and ideas.

First of all, the idea of increasing prices for new crafting devices is not
based economically. A device should have its price/necessary raw material.

Second, this would lead to a situation where only the town itself can afford
any device and some very rare incredible rich guilds. If you look into the
policy of Trolls Bane, they build public devices to attract craftsmen! Why did
they feel the necessity to do so? Review a career of a smith for example:
He starts usually as apprentice for a smith master. He owns no tools
(hammer, pincers, finesmithing hammer...) and no devices (anvil, forge,
grind stone...). He will be equipped by his master and get access to his
masters devices. For that he works for his master on the other side. Goal for
every apprentice is it to master the art himself and earn enough money to
buy his own tools and devices.

If you cut this possibility by arbitrarily increasing the costs for devices,
you cut the possiblity to roleplay a craftsman career.

A typical production chain looks like this:
harvest raw material - mine coal and ore, cut trees, seed and grow grain
ennoble raw material - smelt ore, saw logs, thresh grain
create preproducts - smith nails, carve splinters, mill grain
create final products - smith tools, carpenter something, bake bread

depending on the product some steps have to be repeated or happen
parallel if you need several preproducts for creating a product.

Every production step creates food demand, it wear of your tools and
your clothes I assume. So you can calculate the necessary and
reasonable salary for step one. Now think if a buyer of the raw material
can afford this! He also gets hungry while ennobling the raw material,
his tools and clothes wear off. And he possibly has to sell it to the next
one. And so on...

Now tell me, which product gives reasonable income to fuel this chain?
In Illarion economy you have to start as miner, if you want to become a
smith, because you can't afford to buy ore and coal or the prices for
these raw materials are so ridiculously low that the miner will starve.

You want to have some concurrence between the settlements? Then
create a economy that is not dependant on every existing village to
fill essential needs. Which crafter can survive, if he won't sell his products
on complete Gobiath? Which crafter could buy some of the preproducts
he needs without running in the barriers you want between the villages?

Gobiath is not large enough and has not enough players to run an
economy with villages fighting each others. For example you take care
that the mines does not provide everything everywhere. THis is a good
idea. But now you want that I haggle with words and weapons with the
ones who can give me what I can't get myself? This is a major logical
flaw.

[Korm Kormsen]

thorin,

with the first part of your post i agree.

but from here on i disagree:

Now tell me, which product gives reasonable income to fuel this chain?
In Illarion economy you have to start as miner, if you want to become a
smith, because you can't afford to buy ore and coal or the prices for
these raw materials are so ridiculously low that the miner will starve.

You want to have some concurrence between the settlements? Then
create a economy that is not dependant on every existing village to
fill essential needs. Which crafter can survive, if he won't sell his products
on complete Gobiath? Which crafter could buy some of the preproducts
he needs without running in the barriers you want between the villages?

Gobiath is not large enough and has not enough players to run an
economy with villages fighting each others. For example you take care
that the mines does not provide everything everywhere. THis is a good
idea. But now you want that I haggle with words and weapons with the
ones who can give me what I can't get myself? This is a major logical
flaw.

with the implementation of pack animals, the disapearence of the "magic transport depots", and hopefully those magic travells for everybody, plus well pronounced differences in production for different parts of the island, we will get rid of the stationary gameplay that is predominant now.
robbers will attack carawans, warriors will be hired to protect carawans, merchants will get rich for the travelling risk they are taking, products will be rare and expensive, where they can not be made.
we can have middle-age style wandering smiths, who stay a time in one town, and when everybody is outfitted, they travel on to the next town...

imagine, if your king is an idiot, and starts war with the neighbour-kingdom, you need a merchant from a third town, to supply you with your rawmaterials.
i even would go one step further:
make races really different.
let the dwarves be mastersmiths for heavy metallware, but let them pay that with an inability to farm.
let elves be master carpenters, and fruit/tree growers, but make them lousy smiths. make lizards excellent fighters and fishers, but afraid of fire and smithing. make orcs good hunters and fighters, but clumsy craftsmen.
make gnomes marvellous caravan herders, who do not loose wares from their animals but too weak and nervous for crafting and fighting. make halflings godlike at farming, but unable for the high misteries of crafting and fighting. and make humans able, to do everything... but only mediocre.
and then give every race some areas/places, where they excell even more in their specialities.
so, that players really choose, what they want to play, and where.
to name the most eyecatching example: the elves, who live all over gobaith, save tol vanima. let them choose, to live in their town, or to live abroad, but for a price. the price, to be less able, because of the unfitting enviroment.
how about a varshikar, where the mana flow is stronger, than in other parts?
today, if it is an elf ,a halfling, orc or whatever, they live together, because the players like each other.
and don't waste a thought to the unfitting behaviour that creates.
.