killing chars AND players

Salhari · Post by **Salhari** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:29 pm

no no no!!!
NO perma-death!!
any good RPer will know when his/her characters time is up. Look at Artirius.I spent many weeks working on him then a golem came into town and what happened? I let him die laying on the floor of the tavern. RP goes both ways people, the life of your character, AND the death. If people would rp it out and actually have some characters dying around the world every once and a while, it would add alot more realism. Perma-death should only be inflicted upon those people who are playing criminals, know they are playing criminals, and thus know that if they are caught, their character SHOULD die.

Thanks for hearing me rant
Salhari

Troll's Bane · Post by **Troll's Bane** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:31 pm

Avalyon el'Hattarr wrote:How about this:
we make an OOC list with all the active chars, marking them with one of "good/neutral/evil" (maybe each player will declare his own chars). After the list is done, we set a condition for permanent killing.. something like: to perma a char, you'll have to have the votes (agreement) of at least 50% of the opposed allighment and at least 75% votes from opposed+neutral. If the char in question is neutral, then the votes required are at least 75% of the total chars.

complete nonsense

Nalzaxx · Post by **Nalzaxx** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:31 pm

Avalyon el'Hattarr wrote:...?

I was going to make some witty comment. But then realised I was struck for words considering the fact that they took your suggestion seriously.

Korm Kormsen · Post by **Korm Kormsen** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:38 pm

thanks, Dariya.

i do not advocate isle-wide political systems.

i just want to find a way, that comunities can defend theirselves against the ever growing number of criminals (or better outlaws)
and my idea with the GM-executioner was meant as a checkpoint for the decisions of the death sentences given by the local judges or rulers.

to this:

The grim barbarians of the north and orc clans are all huggy-huggy, there is none trying to usurp the power anywhere..

didn't you know, that the national hymn of the nordmark is: "don't worry, be Huggies!"???

by consent, we, the nordmarkers, play the norodaj-barbarians not like Conan-the-Schwarzenegger, but we play them more like the historical vikings.
that means, that we are not just suicidal berserkers, who stomp around, to cloud and be clouded allways.
it means, that we are merchants, crafters and farmers, who know how to fight, and who now and then make a raid, if easy bounty is in sight.
(we just don't brag about it openly, not to harm our trading interests.)

so, being a huggy society as well, we have the same problems, that the other societies have.
we need to be productive, to build up, but we can't, because we have to prepare for constant guerilla warfare.
taking the fact, that we are not enough players, to let our chars move only in groups, i advocate the idea, to cull the outlaw-activities by permakilling at least those, that have been caught.
if not, those chars, that do nothing but fight and train to fight, will become uber-powerfull and thus will drive away players of "normal" chars.
and, they are cowards.
just think, when did you last see one of the outlaw's names on the "online list"?
but you can see up to eight chars, that want to stay hidden...
as the cowards, who they are, they will go on to slay newbies and weak chars.
do you think about the desire to have fun by playing of these victims, or do they do not count?

korm

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:53 pm

Salhari wrote:no no no!!!
NO perma-death!!
any good RPer will know when his/her characters time is up. Look at Artirius.I spent many weeks working on him then a golem came into town and what happened? I let him die laying on the floor of the tavern. RP goes both ways people, the life of your character, AND the death. If people would rp it out and actually have some characters dying around the world every once and a while, it would add alot more realism. Perma-death should only be inflicted upon those people who are playing criminals, know they are playing criminals, and thus know that if they are caught, their character SHOULD die.

Thanks for hearing me rant
Salhari

I Do not agree with this stance at all

before mmorpg's perma death was implemented in almost all roleplaying systems, let me explain why

If RP ment that you had control over the life and death of your character and every aspect of its existance, you would not need friends, enemies would be pointless, politics would also be pointless, anyone could be immortal and death would mean nothing in the context of the fictional world

I say that we *shouldent* have control over our characters death unless we really wish for them to die, I think that the added risk of knowwing that you could die at any time would lead to a more cautious approach to how you play your character, thus this would slow down the "I am public enemy murder stealer guy hack slash haha die" attitude, increase social interaction to create adventuring parties and level out the game to a less ultima/runescape/wow setting

Achae Eanstray · Post by **Achae Eanstray** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:53 pm

Korm Kormsen wrote:
You hear: I have naught but what I was given at the start of the game
S:You hear: HELP ME PLEASE!!!
this my char heard yesterday.
trying to find the char in peril, i seemingly took the wrong direction.

what do you think, how big will be the motivation of that new player, to play on?

korm

I came back and this happened to my char. I also had a good story to RP to those interested, and a couple of sympathetic chars to tell it to. But I agree a newbie island will help ( I also don't agree with permakill of a PO's char).

Rasteel Olin · Post by **Rasteel Olin** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:52 pm

That is a good idea, Grandpa Kormie.
BUT, illarion's fighting/combat system hasn't been coded for such things.
Let me give you an example of an other game, 'The' game me and Markous play:
I was playing a thief.
I thieved, got caught, and there is a nice command called 'restraint'. So they type 'restraint Eleas arm' and if they have more agility, strenght, etc.. than me: ______ has grabbed your arm firmlily, and you are restraint.
Therefore you cannot move anymore. Somehow like the 'paralyze' spell Fat Pat uses. But I think /anyone/ could do that, not only uber-mages-o'-doom. "But you can do that with roleplay!" Of course you can, and there's always someone who will "#me dodges fast and starts running". So basically, I think a command for that deciding upon success/failure to restraint depending on the attributes would be nice.
That's for 1- Restraint skill or something.
That restraint command should also allow you to drag the person along with you, e.g: Control his/her movements. How? I don't know.

Finally, with that restraint command, dragging thieves to a cell while they await for their judgment shouldn't be too hard.

And finally, giving, yet again mentioned; a GM-Executioner? The right to permanently kill, chop off hands, fingers, arm, etc.. of characters, publicly.

This is how it's done in 'The' other game.

Thieves get their hand chopped off (Making them incapable of holding anything in this one, neither weapons or anything) or anything like that.

So what? You'll create a new char you say? You can't delete characters in this game, you have to ask a staff member, and they have to find a valid reason, and it takes sometimes a while before they study your case and abide. You can only have 3 characters, at first only 1, then you have to pay some kind of 'in-game skill currency' to buy more slots to create up to three chars. And it's expensive. That's why people are scared to play thieves.

Korm Kormsen · Post by **Korm Kormsen** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:58 pm

i think, they got some good ideas implemented in this "other game".

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:00 pm

If I want a system used in another fucking game.

I will play that fucking game.

This is not another game, so stop advertising.

Rasteel Olin · Post by **Rasteel Olin** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:31 pm

That other game isn't graphical, and those features are implented in a /lot/ of other games too. So Illarion shouldn't be less.
And please, please don't play this other game, Turny. Some players went there especially not to have to do with you anymore.

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:37 pm

Rasteel Olin wrote:That other game isn't graphical, and those features are implented in a /lot/ of other games too. So Illarion shouldn't be less.
And please, please don't play this other game, Turny. Some players went there especially not to have to do with you anymore.

If you want to insult me, you'll have to do better then that

I Play illarion for its roleplaying and seperation from "other games" not because I want updates to make it more like "other games" and the more common the system or useless temporary solution to an ongoing problem is, the LESS likely your going to win my vote on this, by the way Karl, why the smile are you still here?

Rasteel Olin · Post by **Rasteel Olin** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:47 pm

You're not too far away either

Theon · Post by **Theon** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:59 pm

If a law says that you'll be executed for breaking it, and you go and break it, you should accept that you might get executed right? That's the risk you've willingly taken in playing that character right? I think I remember thieves complaining for not being allowed to escape from the jail, which compares to this. If a place goes to shit because of crime rates, it's fine because it's possible, it can be sorted by characters in the game not by forum bitching and player hatred, but with pathetic RP there's not much point in playing either side.

It's just silly.

I think what I wrote was on topic, correct me if it wasn't.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:06 pm

Adrian's solution:

If a person is caught, he is FORCED to have a hand cut.

If the person doesn't roleplay his cut hand, then its bad rp and the nyce Gms can ban him

if he does, tell me how he's going to steal with that

Lrmy · Post by **Lrmy** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:11 pm

Don't have the time to read all the other posts then the initial one.

This is a fantasy game. Don't dare compare it to the middle ages. It is nothing like times then. From language to social status and to ways of thinking.

So it is o.k. for a crafter to craft for 3 ooc hours straight, but not a fighter fighting for 3? Both are powergaming. Complaining about one and not the other is pointless.

Criminals being perm killed? No, bad idea. I am sure others have made a comment or two on that subject somewhere in this thread.

In real life, it is easier to rob a crafter than to learn a craft, also the case in the game.

I find it near annoying that everyone that gets killed, is killed by a "powergamer".

Arameh · Post by **Arameh** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:18 pm

Hmm..main things to do would be to make the game more "serious", make clouding something that people do not want to sustain, we had many suggestions but it seems no one want to do the work to implement them. Cutting hands and permanent death is pretty harsh and will cause A LOT of flames on the forum, PO of bandits going "HE WASNT SUPPOSED TO KNOW, MY CHARACTER WORE A HOOD, YOU **** I KEEP MY HAND" and PO of guards complaining that the bandits do not RP when getting grabbed since they dont wanna get cought OOCingly. I agree with Korm that the game does not give enought "consequences for your actions" thna it should, but lets not go too far, there ARE solutions to this that do not make one side pissed off.

Aristeaus · Post by **Aristeaus** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 11:27 pm

Make death via PvP affect the fighting/Magic skills more than the crafting skills, in a much higher degree. Thsi will ensure the people whom train the fighting and do the killing will notice the death much more than the common crafter.

You may say that its not fair upon the lesser fighters, but that is known as tough cookies.

Edit : This will make the PvP aspect more intense, and leave the crafters who dont wish to fight in a capacity where the death via pvp is not that bad, and they can shrug it off.

Lrmy · Post by **Lrmy** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:11 am

This happened before Arist..

People would get killed and loose like 20 hours worth of training their character. It seemed to have little effect on the players then, and I doubt it would have a great effect now. Just annoyed people greatly.

Korm Kormsen · Post by **Korm Kormsen** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:38 am

Lrmy,

i think, it would really benefit your comments, if you would read the whole thread before making them.

Lrmy · Post by **Lrmy** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:00 am

Like I said, I didn't have the time. So... SORRY HOMES!

Salathe · Post by **Salathe** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:11 am

i've read some of the posts here, and it seems that there are more suggestions for another "force perma death system" and i say no! No player should be forced to perma death his character unless that character is getting killed in absurd amounts. It just wont ever work. If we for some reason do get a system, certain powergaming players will eventually get together and find a way to get any char they want out of the game.

Fooser · Post by **Fooser** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:18 am

There should be perma death for Salathe only, and no one else.

Athian · Post by **Athian** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:21 am

What i find funny is that it seems as if this topic was brought up becaus criminal characters were attacking newbies and don't fear the consquences of getting caught or slain. Aside from the fact that the characters that newbie hunt are ninty nine percent of the time the new unscreened newb hack n slasher, We start talking about making perma death an Idea. which would only mean that newb slayers would be further empowered. This would actually do little to stop them, it would just mean that no one would come back from the cross to tell on them.

Dantagon Marescot · Post by **Dantagon Marescot** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:05 am

I agree, the consiquences for characters that are caught stealing or killing ig should be greater. If characters actually faced the conisquences for their actions instead of getting away with maybe a ban or some jail time, then there would be less people running around waving weapons around like madmen.

At the same time, however, inforcing the death should probably be left to the players involved and a GM if nessicary. Having a perma death system is over doing it. If you steal from some, or you kill from someone play fair. If someone is wearing a hood, play along. It is easier that way. And it saves everyone else the head aches of having to read it on the forums later.

Nalzaxx · Post by **Nalzaxx** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 10:21 am

The death penalties should be removed. When a character doesn't have to worry about loosing x hours of his life regaining what was lost he is free to roleplay his character more effectively.

As Athian points out, implementing perma death is not the solution to the problem we currently face. Uneducated roleplayers who play on a hack and slash basis are the problem, and the solution doesn't lie in punishing everyone severely, but comes in educating them and helping them mature to be good members of the community.

Aristeaus · Post by **Aristeaus** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:14 am

The fault doesnt lay in the game but in the players, if criminals cant live with roleplaying an injury, or being captured. And if the judical characters cant roleplay fairly in catching the characters, its not the games fault but the standard of players.

Criminals who attack new players are playing unfairly in a game such as this which doesnt enforce non pvp areas, they should be able to spot a new character and act accordingly.

Judical characters who force the criminal players into bad roleplayed circumstances where the criminal has no chance of escape or redemption of any kind are acting against the morals of the game and should themselfs not play the position they are attempting to play.

A game such as illarion relys on the fair play and moral understandings and intellect of its players. There is nothing which needs to be done to the game, all that needs to be done is for the players to stop finding excuses to moan and attempt to play in a fair manner. In the end the criminals and the judicators are both at fault. Permadeath should never be an option as it would be biased. Why should a criminal character be forced into permadeath when a judical character should not?

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:38 pm

Nalzaxx wrote:The death penalties should be removed. When a character doesn't have to worry about loosing x hours of his life regaining what was lost he is free to roleplay his character more effectively.

As Athian points out, implementing perma death is not the solution to the problem we currently face. Uneducated roleplayers who play on a hack and slash basis are the problem, and the solution doesn't lie in punishing everyone severely, but comes in educating them and helping them mature to be good members of the community.

And in an ideal world, everyone wants to be educated and happy huggle friends

The Returner · Post by **The Returner** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:40 pm

Aristeaus wrote: A game such as illarion relys on the fair play and moral understandings and intellect of its players. There is nothing which needs to be done to the game, all that needs to be done is for the players to stop finding excuses to moan and attempt to play in a fair manner. In the end the criminals and the judicators are both at fault. Permadeath should never be an option as it would be biased. Why should a criminal character be forced into permadeath when a judical character should not?

Actually this would provide interesting roleplay scenarios, a judicial character would not be killed under normal circumstance with a perma death system, but this does not mean he can't be killed by someone else

Implementing it only for criminals would defeat the purpose

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killing chars AND players

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