the 'suggested' classses

[Athian]

okay, ive been thinking about the class choices list for awhile and it's fairly apparent that it's completely outdated, for a few reasons. stats that weren't used in the past are now used in combat/crafting etc. there are many stats that players really don't know enough about (as in there exact use toward certain skills and jobs). and because of this we have system that seem to be geared toward these out of date examples of character types despite the fact that the use of different stats as they effect jobs/skills may change at any time. yet this list does not change, i'm sure our staff is way to busy with trying to improve the game to waste time thinking about this, or believe the stats are fine as they are, but i think that the players of the game pprobably have a more solid idea of what works and what doesn't work. so i feel like trying to compile a new list. who knows maybe the GM's will even like it

it might not seem like a problem to many of the older or braver characters. but two groups are generally effected by such things. first is the newbies who don't know enough about the game to pick stats correctly, those people will pick from these stat sets more then likily, but if they aren't really up to date then it will only be a hinderance. Secondly are groups of players who have either made there character in times when certain stats didn't matter (i'm sure Salathe will at least agree), and players who have attempted to adjust there stats in a way to allow said character a chance to be more efficent only to find that whichever system effects there character the most ends up punishing them for the change they've made.

so in that sense i thought we the players, despite not knowing each and every technical aspect of the stats could probably give a few examples of better stat sets geared toward specific roles. keep in mind a few things when doing so.

if the class has any type of limit in materials (weapons/armor)

what the stats the role requires to be effective

if the class uses multiple skills, like the ranger/paladin/Battlemage(warlock if you want to call it that)

ive highlighted in red a few stats i in some classes that i'm pretty sure need to be tweaked to make them a bit more modern. they are either needed or no longer needed by the class in question. again of course there are no real classes in illarion, but if your going to offer the choice to people at least it should be up to date. feel free to give any input you think is valid. so any thoughts anyone?



Arthur the Knight
STR: 14
CON: 14
DEX: 14
AGI: 12
INT: 7
WIL: 9
PER: 7
ESS: 7

Friedrich van Fleck the Paladin
STR: 13
CON: 13
DEX: 11
AGI: 7
INT: 10
WIL: 12
PER: 6
ESS: 12

Demetor the Ranger
STR: 10
CON: 11
DEX: 14
AGI: 11
INT: 8
WIL: 6
PER: 13
ESS: 11

Robin the Archer
STR: 11
CON: 8
DEX: 13
AGI: 13
INT: 8
WIL: 9
PER: 15
ESS: 7

Hugo the Barbarian
STR: 18
CON: 18
DEX: 7
AGI: 13
INT: 4
WIL: 11
PER: 8
ESS: 5

Siegfried the Thief
STR: 8
CON: 8
DEX: 17
AGI: 15
INT: 12
WIL: 6
PER: 12
ESS: 6

(i see no need to even have a thief character choice at this point and time. when there is no system to support it. all this would do is cause new players to become frustrated when they attempt to use that character in another role while waiting for a system if anything a theif system will probably be the last thing to come, if at all)

Istaron the Battle Mage
STR: 9
CON: 10
DEX: 10
AGI: 8
INT: 14
WIL: 12
PER: 8
ESS: 13

Goliath Brassacre the Mage
STR: 5
CON: 4
DEX: 7
AGI: 6
INT: 18
WIL: 16
PER: 12
ESS: 16

Knorrix the Druid
STR: 6
CON: 9
DEX: 6
AGI: 6
INT: 15
WIL: 15
PER: 12
ESS: 15

Luciano the Bard
STR: 6
CON: 5
DEX: 12
AGI: 8
INT: 12
WIL: 16
PER: 11
ESS: 14

Gregor the Priest
STR: 7
CON: 10
DEX: 7
AGI: 6
INT: 16
WIL: 17
PER: 8
ESS: 13

Gumli the Miner
STR: 15
CON: 12
DEX: 13
AGI: 6
INT: 5
WIL: 11
PER: 14
ESS: 8

Eckhard the Crafter
STR: 12
CON: 9
DEX: 17
AGI: 10
INT: 12
WIL: 8
PER: 10
ESS: 6

Fritz the Farmer
STR: 13
CON: 13
DEX: 13
AGI: 10
INT: 5
WIL: 6
PER: 13
ESS: 12

btw no one person needs to give new examples for all of them, since no one person has played all these roles (i think).

[Athian]

if you actually decide to think on this keep in mind the number definitions we were given (they could probably use some tidying too )

http://illarion.org/community/forums/vi ... php?t=9047

[Korm Kormsen]

farmers...

why so high essence? what do they need that for?
perception could be lower as well.
but strength/condition should be essential.

they have to carry a lot.

[Athian]

at least one person pays attention to things i post...

farming was an interesting one. because Farmers have better stats then paladin/ rangers and battlemages. and if a farmer ever quite farming and picked up a sword he'd/she could become an even match for a knight. always found that a bit odd. but yes they could do without those two particular stats so maybe take two points from essence and perception. and then put them where?

thats leave four points left

Fritz the Farmer
STR: 13
CON: 13
DEX: 13
AGI: 10
INT: 5
WIL: 6
PER: 13
ESS: 12


maybe farmer might be better like:

Fritz the Farmer
STR: 13
CON: 13
DEX: 13
AGI: 12(+2)
INT: 7 (+2)
WIL: 6
PER: 11 (-2)
ESS: 10 (-2)

[Siltaris]

defintely an important issue to adjust the officially proposed skills to give new players a correct idea of which attributes are needed for their char.

I think it should not be too difficult to implement the new adjusted attributes to the system.

So, go ahead - good job


What does the staff think about it?

[Nalzaxx]

I wholly support this. However, do we, the experienced players, even know what stats are used for what now, and to what extent?

Still, these should still be updated to the best of our knowledge.

[Athian]

there are some general things we now know, both about stats and items that boost effectiveness of stats.

we now know that dexterity plays a bigger role in fighting now (not sure if perception does in melee combat).

but barbarian stats are

Hugo the Barbarian
STR: 18
CON: 18
DEX: 7
AGI: 13
INT: 4
WIL: 11
PER: 8
ESS: 5

now looks at the paladin

Friedrich van Fleck the Paladin
STR: 13
CON: 13
DEX: 11
AGI: 7
INT: 10
WIL: 12
PER: 6
ESS: 12

low agility, because in the past agility mattered alot less, when a character with high parry blocked 90 percent of the time and walking speed behaved differently (way back in illa history) now you will almost definatly take a hit in combat. and 7 agility would effect your ability to dodge blows, not to mention your running speed


seven dexterity is a point under below average. in the past that was fine but now, dexterity can make a massive difference. that one kind of example. here's one of the ones that i know personally, which is effect by changes in items.

Istaron the Battle Mage
STR: 9
CON: 10
DEX: 10
AGI: 8
INT: 14
WIL: 12
PER: 8
ESS: 13

i don't think i need to explain exactly what would happen to a character with 9/8/8 in strenght, agility and perception while wearing there only choice as leather armor. pwnage. in the past when armor values for leather weren't complete shit and back when casters had the option of metal armor. this might have been fine. now a days, both are out of the question. there is no battle in this battle mage. it's basically just a magically weaker mage who can expect to be less potent in magic and hardly be able to fight off monsters without spells.

in the case of the two melee classes we have a change in system but no update in stats to go with it. in the case of the battle mage we have a bias magic system that supports old stat types while not taking into account the the limitations made by newer changes in items and systems


just some examples.

[Estralis Seborian]

Can you like summarize the changes you'd make, providing a complete list of the attributes you'd choose?

Since the fighting system was changed, the fight-related character classes need an update, I totally agree. I'll do the update, inspired by your suggestions.

Concerning craft-related and magic-related chars: Crafting will be redone completely, thus, it is hard to tell what attributes they will need. Most magic classes (and thieves) do not exist and will not for many weeks, months, and in some cases, years if not decades. Thus, most classes were "good guesses" by meh

btw, I agree that some classes are totally nuts, like the battle mage or the knight. They'd suck.

[Korm Kormsen]

Athian,

maybe farmer might be better like:

Fritz the Farmer
STR: 13
CON: 13
DEX: 13
AGI: 12(+2)
INT: 7 (+2)
WIL: 6
PER: 11 (-2)
ESS: 10 (-2)

and this is Tjalf the barbarian farmer:

STR: 19
CON: 18
DEX: 13
AGI: 10
INT: 9
WIL: 4
PER: 3
ESS: 8

even higher intelligence. that helps aparently, to learn farming
lower essence. a farmer and hunter has no dealings with mages.
constitution and strength seemed essential to me, for a producer of bulk goods.
high dexteriety is only needed, if the farmer shall be a cook too.

well, very low perception and willpower, i put as personal defects of the char. (i ignore, if these have influence on engine-play)

tjalf is a higly productive farmer, who is able to defend himself against a wolf or two.

from (my) logic, farmers, smiths and miners should have good fighting attributes partly, because they have well trained bodies from hard work.
(but they schould lack in tactics, dodging and parrying)

but a taylor, for instance, should be able to become a good archer, but not a good sword/axe-man.

reading, what i wrote, i see, i come back to the idea, that an increase in one attribute/ability should lower the possible cap in another attribute or ability. may be in pairs:

strength -/- agility
intelligence -/- willpower
constitution -/- essence
but:
perception = dexteriety

there is a lot to do - let's sit back...

korm

[Athian]

@Estralis: i was going to compile an entire list of theoretical changes. but i wanted some input and data from players who have played these roles before. though a chance to collect actual data would be lovely



the idea of some stats capping others might work if there weren't any set systems, for example if the magic systems (priest/druid/mage) require high willpower and intellegence, then one capping the other won't work to wonderfully. in order to have such a thing we'd need systems that weren't soley based toward minimums and maximums of stats.


as to the farmer.

i usually don't think to ever put any stat at the bare minimum because as they way it's described the bare minimum of a stat is similiar to a phyisical or mental handicap rather then just something your bad at.

STR: 19
CON: 18
DEX: 13
AGI: 10
INT: 9
WIL: 4
PER: 3
ESS: 8


these stats seem a bit to extreme for a farmer. a farmer is strong, but 19 strenght should be a rarity, as this is an extreme large person in a general sense. same for constitution, a farmer is used to working hard long days but 18-19 constitution is again very very high in standard.

maybe something like:

STR: 15
CON: 14
DEX: 13
AGI: 12
INT: 8
WIL: 8
PER: 8
ESS: 6

high but not extreme. below average intelligence same for willpower. but we can consider there simple farmers after all. capable of learning but at a slower pace then most. same idea for perception, and they don't have to be particularly strong in spiritual power

[Estralis Seborian]

For me, a farmer is an average person. He might be a bit stronger than the usual commoner due to working on the fields all day. Also, he might have a higher essence because he spends so much time with nature stuff and benefits from a "green thumb".

A farmer might be quite dumb, otherwise, he wouldn't be a farmer but a scholar or such, no? Due to a lack of education, he might obey commands of a leader or lord without asking too much, that's why I set the low willpower.

Maybe one could change the values a bit, but keep in mind that a farmer is not a warrior but a plowing hillbilly.

Fritz the Farmer
STR: 13
CON: 13
DEX: 12 (-1)
AGI: 11 (+1)
INT: 5
WIL: 6
PER: 12 (-1)
ESS: 13 (+1)

[Korm Kormsen]

Athian,

i usually don't think to ever put any stat at the bare minimum because as they way it's described the bare minimum of a stat is similiar to a phyisical or mental handicap rather then just something your bad at.

i started playing that char so deaf, that he understood only shouted words. that was fun.
after i annoyed enough PO's with that, i became a bit more moderate. but the char still does not understand any whispered words.
it is a barbarian, 198 cm high, 98kg weight.
yes i agree, that he is extreme in more than one way.

...if the magic systems (priest/druid/mage) require high willpower and intellegence, then one capping the other won't work to wonderfully.

i am not sticking to the pairings. they were meant just as examples.

the basic idea of mine is just, that a char, that once learns, let's say, cooking, then learns and practices other things, should not be an expert cook, if he decides after a year or two, to cook something.
if you can't be a (lasting) master in every field, there should be less desire, to powergame every skill to the maximum.
even older chars stay "human" by a system of that sort. we would not have "can all, know all - demigods" in the game.
or do you think it desireable, to have expert fighters, who make their own top class armour and plant and cook their own provisions?

korm

[Llama]

Isn't essence about magical balance? Balance with cosmic forces and the like?

I doubt its a good farming thing...

I suggest you all start at 10 all, then tweak accordingly

STR: 15
CON: 13
DEX: 12
AGI: 9
INT: 5
WIL: 11
PER: 12
ESS: 8

More will, if you'r working in the sun all day, you HAVE to keep going.

Agility is another thing i doubt a farmer in real lyfe would need.

[Athian]

my one question to that would still be the essense, whichn i feel is negotiable, since it has more purpose now, as a defensive stat. not to say mages go out to kill farmers. but a common man resisting magic attacks better then powerful warriors and even battlemages and paladins seems strange to me. so maybe...

Fritz the Farmer
STR: 13
CON: 13
DEX: 12 (-1)
AGI: 11 (+1)
INT: 6 (+1)
WIL: 7 (+1)
PER: 11(-2)
ESS: 11(-2)



also we have to keep in mind that intelligence effects the rate of learning very heavily even in completely normal phyiscal routines that require nothing more then repetitioin. with super low intellegence a player farmer will have an incredibly slow progression rate.

so far the it seems mostly we can agree a farmer wouldn't need anymore then 15 strenght at most. and between 12-14 consitution.

i think alot of things that don't effect rl peoples can't apply to the techincal aspects of the game, however. since you have to use all your points though being completely relistic was out the window anyway.

[Taeryon Silverlight]

Knorrix the Druid
STR: 6
CON: 9
DEX: 6
AGI: 6
INT: 15
WIL: 15
PER: 12
ESS: 15

that stats are holy crap. A druid doesn't need any con, since they don't have to fight normally, but he needs high dex for brewing, planting and such. Also, a druid needs high per and (at the current system) no will or ess. So that's how I think druid-stats should be:

Knorrix the Druid
STR: 14
CON: 6
DEX: 15
AGI: 6
INT: 16
WIL: 5
PER: 16
ESS: 5

[Miklorius]

I support these efforts here, the attributes of the archetypes need an update because newbies see (and use) them in their character creation.

Also delete types which have no real ingame reasons (thiefs).

PS: Sorry, I can't deal with attribute information here.

[Llama]

Question.

Why do we bother?

Why don't we just scrap them?

Or is the accoutn system V2 defaults based on these?

[Rasteel Olin]

Please don't forget that special races start with more attribute points to put and not the same maximal spendable in each attribute ^^

[Athian]

if we never addressed the idea at all then more then likily the archetypes would have been placed in the next account system. and as i said before. the archetypes aren't generally for players who have been here long enough to understand the way they work, but for the newbies who take some timeto adjust, there no point in giving them bad archetypes to work from. its helpful to have an idea of how to play the role you like, but you thigs like these change constantly.

also it might and i say might be helpful in tweaking and devoloping the systems if the Dev's ever do look at these things. because they would be more able to design systems that are player friendly, with stat types more in veiw of how we the players think they would be.

as to Druids

from what ive heard, and it might be spectulation, but there will be actual druid magic, not just brewing and potion making. but even so your completely correct with the current systems the druid archetype simply won't work very well anymore.

some stat suggestions on Druids would be nice to see.


also i noticed one other problem. with the idea of 'normal' or mid based stats. it's a horrible way to think of a stat set. in order to be a normal (all stats 10 character in illarion) you would have to have absolutly no class, and do absolutely nothing. the moment you involves any type of work the definition of normal changes immensely. in this game to be a 'normal' farmer it is suggested you have below normal intelligence. to be a normal bard it is suggested that you have far below normal constitution. using terms like average and normal must go and should never be the basis of any system as it is now. if anything we usually look at 18 as extremely high stat wise. half that should be considered more which would be better as 8-9. the current mage magic system seems to be designed with these same old standards, as well as the current crafting system. i'm hoping the future systems won't use that thinking as a base.

@Rasteel: we're talking classes not races at the moment. though they usually effect stats by a point or two. i'm more concerned with trying to get a general idea of what would make better archetypes. but if you could look up the base stats and maxes for us that'd be nice. since you brought it up and all

[Estralis Seborian]

Or is the accoutn system V2 defaults based on these?

Exactly.

I will try to compile informations about druid+priest magic and what attributes matter. Same holds for crafting.

[Athian]

if they resemble the mage magic system at all we can welcome trhe paladin and the ranger to the land of the screwed over.

but i'd be grateful if you could get us a general idea of what those magic systems will need. i'm sure there are plenty of people waiting on the priest system thats been talked about. even i'm curious to see what that will be like. probably still got a long wait though

[Estralis Seborian]

Paladin=Half priest, half fighter
Ranger=Half druid, half fighter
Battlemage=Half mage, half fighter

I can't think of a name for a half bard, half fighter guy...

afaik, the persons who care about priest magic are Aragon, Vilarion and Cliu.

[Kevin Lightdot]

BB the Battle Bard?

[Athian]

Paladin=Half priest, half fighter
Ranger=Half druid, half fighter
Battlemage=Half mage, half fighter

I can't think of a name for a half bard, half fighter guy...

afaik, the persons who care about priest magic are Aragon, Vilarion and Cliu.

mind you i play probably the closest thing to a half mage half fighter right now. and i can tell you one thing for certain. halfer characters will forever be screwed. at least one skill of my magic is on even par skill wise with other mages, this plus boosting items (wands robes etc) and i can expect that even a mummy can (and has deflected) my spells, lets not even talk about scorpions. i improve at a rate that could be considered laughable and i fail spells at least 4/10 times. thats IF i can do them at all.

theres no such thing as a half character in this game. you can't be a decent fighter + (insert magic system of choice). you can only be a sub par fighter and a horrible magic user.

thats why i expect those classes to be exactly the same. if they aren't then it's just completely unfair

[Llama]

I can't think of a name for a half bard, half fighter guy...

Wandering Merchanary?

[Athian]

I can't think of a name for a half bard, half fighter guy...

Wandering Merchanary?

lol, um is has there ever been such a class in a game? i can't think of any.

[Korm Kormsen]

I can't think of a name for a half bard, half fighter guy...

how about scotch piper?

[Athian]

Old knight Archetype

STR: 14
CON: 14
DEX: 14
AGI: 12
INT: 7
WIL: 9
PER: 7
ESS: 7

New knight Archetype

STR: 14
CON: 13
DEX: 13
AGI: 12
INT: 7
WIL: 6
PER: 13
ESS: 6

seems a bit better. i'll wait for some opinions.

[Grivijak]

Athian pwns as usual.

[Athian]

thanks .it was pretty simple after i realized the farmer stats were better for a knight then the knight stats were...

if anyone has any other suggestions i'd love to hear them, before i go off compiling a list, that everyone hates.