The topic was rudely locked before I could continue, so here's the post I was about to add, before lock-happy Markous did what he does best.
The staff who have banned Sam (definitely not the entire staff, as I believe Martin is on urlaub and I sincerely doubt that Loralyn would move to ban him) have behaved in a childish fashion. The disciplinary members of staff, have lost my respect and doubtlessly the respect of the players. You're left with a seering staff whose capability is severely questioned. You targeted this single player, whose "crimes" were relatively miniscule, yet there are a number of other players whose crimes were never once punished. Expect a list, posted publicly soonish. I still have respect for the coders, developers and people like Thorvald and Markous who slave over quests.
Finally, I would ask Arien, Jaime and Markous to not have this topic locked, as a sign of respect and faith in players. Allow this discussion to continue. You can delete Alkuurg, Retlak and Grant's unproductive posts, of course.
Dear former colleagues
Moderator: Gamemasters
Re: Dear former colleagues
There will be no discussion. Do what you want. Sam will stay banned permanently. Over and out.Japheth wrote:Allow this discussion to continue.
If this topic starts to become full of shit as the other one, I will lock it, too.
Re: Dear former colleagues
Jappy says it best.Japheth wrote:The topic was rudely locked before I could continue, so here's the post I was about to add, before lock-happy Markous did what he does best.
The staff who have banned Sam (definitely not the entire staff, as I believe Martin is on urlaub and I sincerely doubt that Loralyn would move to ban him) have behaved in a childish fashion. The disciplinary members of staff, have lost my respect and doubtlessly the respect of the players. You're left with a seering staff whose capability is severely questioned. You targeted this single player, whose "crimes" were relatively miniscule, yet there are a number of other players whose crimes were never once punished. Expect a list, posted publicly soonish. I still have respect for the coders, developers and people like Thorvald and Markous who slave over quests.
Finally, I would ask Arien, Jaime and Markous to not have this topic locked, as a sign of respect and faith in players. Allow this discussion to continue. You can delete Alkuurg, Retlak and Grant's unproductive posts, of course.
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Samantha Meryadeles
- Posts: 1879
- Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:48 pm
- Contact:
Nice to see that this topic couldn't survive two answers without a rulebreak. I will quote from the rules:You all need to GTFO, STFU and get a life.
Pathetic excuses for human beings.
Please don't continue to use such a language at the board, and also respect the rules and obey them. Thank you.3. Insults
All insults directed at the person behind the screen, and not the character, are frowned upon, and will not be tolerated. Neither will all racist and/or sexist remarks.
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14. Forum
On the boards the rules 2,3,5,6 and 13 apply. On the Roleplay Board and also the Guilds Board only role play (and no OOC) is allowed. Additionally the rules 8 and 11 apply. Posts concerning trading offers are unwanted.
O.o.....a magician and a enforcer of the lawSamantha Meryadeles wrote:Nice to see that this topic couldn't survive two answers without a rulebreak. I will quote from the rules:You all need to GTFO, STFU and get a life.
Pathetic excuses for human beings.
Please don't continue to use such a language at the board, and also respect the rules and obey them. Thank you.3. Insults
All insults directed at the person behind the screen, and not the character, are frowned upon, and will not be tolerated. Neither will all racist and/or sexist remarks.
--------------------
14. Forum
On the boards the rules 2,3,5,6 and 13 apply. On the Roleplay Board and also the Guilds Board only role play (and no OOC) is allowed. Additionally the rules 8 and 11 apply. Posts concerning trading offers are unwanted.
I suppose this was ignored. I will ask once more to hear the rules Sam broke exept lieing to a Dev(Wait..is that a rule?) and telling a devs character name to people(mmm, Is this either). Please do tell who ever knows. And do not use the reasons I stated in my post I quoted. If no reply to my question is made I will assume he broke none, as should all.The public is trying to discuss things here. As you can see from my last post the public does not want Sam banned. I belive I had 7 people agree with me before any other sort of thing was said. Since then a coulple of other people have shown dislike for the ban in this thread. I do not belive you can any longer argue that it is in the publics intrest for Sam to be banned.
Will they use the past offenses they had on him when the role play was stricter?(I was also banned twice in that time) That is hardly fair considering half the people that play now would be banned under those rules(well maybe only a third not half). Or prehaps the time he attacked and clouded the "non-english speakers" witch I attacked with him. They knew english to an extent where they could understand what was going on, not to mention they happened to all log in when we attacked them.
If there are other past reasons that would suggest a perm ban I am shure he and the public and the player would like and deserve to hear them
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Samantha Meryadeles
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Why dont you read the rules before you write something like that, Lrmy? Both, lieing AND telling the names away IS against the rule. It is the second rule of the game. And you still write something like " I will ask once more to hear the rules Sam broke exept lieing to a Dev(Wait..is that a rule?) and telling a devs character name to people(mmm, Is this either). " here? And yes, A DEV is also to be considered a GM, especially since the player also uses GM chars with GM abilitys.2. Gamemaster
Some players have characters with Game master (GM) status. Their task is to keep order within the game. They can punish misbehavior in a number of unpleasant ways, or notify administrators for some even more unpleasant punishment. These special characters should not be disturbed when busy, with the possible exception of very urgent cases. Lying to gamemasters, and exploiting bugs constitute serious offences, and will be dealt with harshly. The Game masters' privacy is respected. Their other characters will not be named unless specifically requested by the GM him or herself.
OMFG, have you never exploitied a bug Patric? You even did bugged spells on Grant and Stephen.Samantha Meryadeles wrote:Why dont you read the rules before you write something like that, Lrmy? Both, lieing AND telling the names away IS against the rule. It is the second rule of the game. And you still write something like " I will ask once more to hear the rules Sam broke exept lieing to a Dev(Wait..is that a rule?) and telling a devs character name to people(mmm, Is this either). " here? And yes, A DEV is also to be considered a GM, especially since the player also uses GM chars with GM abilitys.2. Gamemaster
Some players have characters with Game master (GM) status. Their task is to keep order within the game. They can punish misbehavior in a number of unpleasant ways, or notify administrators for some even more unpleasant punishment. These special characters should not be disturbed when busy, with the possible exception of very urgent cases. Lying to gamemasters, and exploiting bugs constitute serious offences, and will be dealt with harshly. The Game masters' privacy is respected. Their other characters will not be named unless specifically requested by the GM him or herself.
Samantha Meryadeles wrote:Why dont you read the rules before you write something like that, Lrmy? Both, lieing AND telling the names away IS against the rule. It is the second rule of the game. And you still write something like " I will ask once more to hear the rules Sam broke exept lieing to a Dev(Wait..is that a rule?) and telling a devs character name to people(mmm, Is this either). " here? And yes, A DEV is also to be considered a GM, especially since the player also uses GM chars with GM abilitys.2. Gamemaster
Some players have characters with Game master (GM) status. Their task is to keep order within the game. They can punish misbehavior in a number of unpleasant ways, or notify administrators for some even more unpleasant punishment. These special characters should not be disturbed when busy, with the possible exception of very urgent cases. Lying to gamemasters, and exploiting bugs constitute serious offences, and will be dealt with harshly. The Game masters' privacy is respected. Their other characters will not be named unless specifically requested by the GM him or herself.
Wrong. Devs are Devs, GM's are GM's, Overseers are Overseers, Questers are Questers. They should have updated the rules when they changed the system. Plus it's a single rule, not meriting a perm ban
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Samantha Meryadeles
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Seems the whole staff sees it different than you Liles, so you should accept that you are wrong. The staff makes the rules, the staff decide how they inerpret the rules. and if the staff says a gamemaster is everythong from dev, over seer to quester, than it is so. Anbd your opinion about that means nothing. Sorry if this sounds harsh. But you are just a player, and they are the staff. Think about it
That is not true Patric. If a person in Illairon holds a wand ae they a mage?Samantha Meryadeles wrote:Why dont you read the rules before you write something like that, Lrmy? Both, lieing AND telling the names away IS against the rule. It is the second rule of the game. And you still write something like " I will ask once more to hear the rules Sam broke exept lieing to a Dev(Wait..is that a rule?) and telling a devs character name to people(mmm, Is this either). " here? And yes, A DEV is also to be considered a GM, especially since the player also uses GM chars with GM abilitys.2. Gamemaster
Some players have characters with Game master (GM) status. Their task is to keep order within the game. They can punish misbehavior in a number of unpleasant ways, or notify administrators for some even more unpleasant punishment. These special characters should not be disturbed when busy, with the possible exception of very urgent cases. Lying to gamemasters, and exploiting bugs constitute serious offences, and will be dealt with harshly. The Game masters' privacy is respected. Their other characters will not be named unless specifically requested by the GM him or herself.
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Matholamew Dunsinane
- Posts: 79
- Joined: Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:44 pm
So are you...think about that.
Before anything else is said...please no more drunk posting Alkuurg. Your messages are increadibly hard to read.
I wish I had been here when there was staff with the players, not opposite trenches throwing hand grenades and HOPING to hit something.
But that's just me.
[edit] so are you refers tyo patrik
Before anything else is said...please no more drunk posting Alkuurg. Your messages are increadibly hard to read.
I wish I had been here when there was staff with the players, not opposite trenches throwing hand grenades and HOPING to hit something.
But that's just me.
[edit] so are you refers tyo patrik
Last edited by Matholamew Dunsinane on Mon Jan 01, 2007 8:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
You just seem to be happy Stephen is gone, that's all, I can see through that shitty mask you wear Patric.Samantha Meryadeles wrote:Seems the whole staff sees it different than you Liles, so you should accept that you are wrong. The staff makes the rules, the staff decide how they inerpret the rules. and if the staff says a gamemaster is everythong from dev, over seer to quester, than it is so. Anbd your opinion about that means nothing. Sorry if this sounds harsh. But you are just a player, and they are the staff. Think about it
This is from Patric VIA PM to me. I just thought you all should see his opinions.
Umm..if you can understand it.
More personal attacks...Why, why, why? I didn't evan say anything to him.((You are really not very smart, are you?
Quote:
That is not true Patric. If a person in Illairon holds a wand ae they a mage?
You wand to compare someone holding an item without a use to him to a player having full controll over a gm char with all the gamemaster abilitys and possibilitys?
The Gamemaster is a gamemaster because he has a char which 100 % gamemaster powers, a mage is a mage because he is someone with magepowers.
As soon as someone gets magic and magepowers, he is a mage. as soon as a player gets a char with full gamemaster powers, he is a GM.
it is all easy. if you still can't understand it i will be very sorry for you and pity your lack of brain *sighs and shakes head*
Umm..if you can understand it.
What I see as the problem in the current staff is that it isn't at all representative of the playerbase. When the GMs alone did GM work, and there weren't these loosely undefined jobs like overseers and questers, and the devs stayed off the GM board, we had a staff that was half western and half german, with two yanks, three germans, and one gm from ireland for a good mix.
Also, the GM staff was seperate from and thereby didn't represent the development segment of the game. This is good, because they also had no control over which direction the game was being developed. In that way the devs were free to control themselves while the players didn't have to suffer under punishments from people who should rather be coding than punishing.
With myself, Japheth, Papoitsi, and Rinya leaving, the balance was entirely broken, but we were already seeing the devs pushing their way into the GM boards, and, frankly, it was part of the reason some of us left. Between being pushed around by older GM's, stuck in the middle of older staff conflicts that shouldn't have involved us, and being encroached on by the development team and feeling as if they were prying our ability to make decisions out from under us, it was an inhospitable environment.
In fact, the first thing I read on the GM board as it was opened to me was a post from one staff member warning against having too many GM's from "over there." Beautiful!
Of course, the developers encroached on GMing for a reason: they believed that the GM staff couldn't work permanently; sure, even my team only lasted a year. However, I don't recall the GM boards as being a hospitable environment; which might be one of the reasons that several of the GM's *just don't read it* half the time. It's not healthy to make decisions without prior knowledge, but some of the staff admitted just that to me, and actually were quite offended by my angry rebuke when I heard that.
To summate: it's time to clean house a bit, and has been since before I was even a staff member. =)
-Mitch
Also, the GM staff was seperate from and thereby didn't represent the development segment of the game. This is good, because they also had no control over which direction the game was being developed. In that way the devs were free to control themselves while the players didn't have to suffer under punishments from people who should rather be coding than punishing.
With myself, Japheth, Papoitsi, and Rinya leaving, the balance was entirely broken, but we were already seeing the devs pushing their way into the GM boards, and, frankly, it was part of the reason some of us left. Between being pushed around by older GM's, stuck in the middle of older staff conflicts that shouldn't have involved us, and being encroached on by the development team and feeling as if they were prying our ability to make decisions out from under us, it was an inhospitable environment.
In fact, the first thing I read on the GM board as it was opened to me was a post from one staff member warning against having too many GM's from "over there." Beautiful!
Of course, the developers encroached on GMing for a reason: they believed that the GM staff couldn't work permanently; sure, even my team only lasted a year. However, I don't recall the GM boards as being a hospitable environment; which might be one of the reasons that several of the GM's *just don't read it* half the time. It's not healthy to make decisions without prior knowledge, but some of the staff admitted just that to me, and actually were quite offended by my angry rebuke when I heard that.
To summate: it's time to clean house a bit, and has been since before I was even a staff member. =)
-Mitch
I would take this opportunity, since it has been reopened, to state a few things.
First off, the voting was open for an entire week, before the decision was made final. Three of the four Quest GMs voted, three of the four Seer GMs (yes, one of each is the same person, making a total of five GMs) voted, as well as two developers, and the GM Abuse person, making a total of eight votes.
The most lennient vote was for him to be given one more chance, but made very clear that the slightest rulebreak, no matter how minor, would have the instant punishment of a permanent ban. The rest felt he had already been given many chances, and that it was therefore inevitable that such would happen, so just go ahead and make it permanent now. The final total was 2 for 'one more chance, next rulebreak is permanent ban' and 6 for 'make it permanent now'. This did include at least two (to the best of my knowledge, perhaps more) voters who *do like* the player. And even if you wish to not include to votes of the devs/GM Abuse, the total was still 4 to 1.
There was quite a bit of discussion, and no one anywhere said anything like 'I don't like him and don't want him here'. It was all concerned with his rule breaking, past and present, and his behavior when questioned about the latest incident by a GM character.
I would also point out that, at least once before, he was banned, then allowed back for 'one last chance'. He has, since that time, done several things that bend if not outright break the rules; this latest is only the 'hair that broke the camel's back', so to speak.
On a minor side note, I would make it clear that *both questers and seers are GMs*. They have different basic 'jobs', but both are GMs. Just look at the contact page.
First off, the voting was open for an entire week, before the decision was made final. Three of the four Quest GMs voted, three of the four Seer GMs (yes, one of each is the same person, making a total of five GMs) voted, as well as two developers, and the GM Abuse person, making a total of eight votes.
The most lennient vote was for him to be given one more chance, but made very clear that the slightest rulebreak, no matter how minor, would have the instant punishment of a permanent ban. The rest felt he had already been given many chances, and that it was therefore inevitable that such would happen, so just go ahead and make it permanent now. The final total was 2 for 'one more chance, next rulebreak is permanent ban' and 6 for 'make it permanent now'. This did include at least two (to the best of my knowledge, perhaps more) voters who *do like* the player. And even if you wish to not include to votes of the devs/GM Abuse, the total was still 4 to 1.
There was quite a bit of discussion, and no one anywhere said anything like 'I don't like him and don't want him here'. It was all concerned with his rule breaking, past and present, and his behavior when questioned about the latest incident by a GM character.
I would also point out that, at least once before, he was banned, then allowed back for 'one last chance'. He has, since that time, done several things that bend if not outright break the rules; this latest is only the 'hair that broke the camel's back', so to speak.
On a minor side note, I would make it clear that *both questers and seers are GMs*. They have different basic 'jobs', but both are GMs. Just look at the contact page.
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Dónal Mason
- Posts: 1115
- Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2004 8:46 pm
- Location: Don't feed the mogwai. After midnight, at least.
The current GMs are heavily on the side of German players. There's no disputing it. From the things I've heard, there's an awful lot of pressure on non German GMs to comply, and one current GM is utterly incapable of his or her job, due to the fact that this person is biased and inept. From what I have seen recently, this ineptitude is not limited to one person any longer.
Martin, you really need to clean up.
Martin, you really need to clean up.
Why is there such a HUGE gap between GMs and the players?
Both of them should be working for the same thing, to make illarion a better experience for everyone.
Before you could ask a GM to help you in a quest, and you'd have one, who'd be happy to help you. Nowadays, it all seems to be a player VS GM war.
Personally when i'm playing the game (something i'm doing very little of right now [unfortunatly]), i don't care what the others are doing, as long as they don't disturb my RP, and I find someone to RP with in this RP game.
That said, i think the Gms should lay a bit off the banning, and the defensive mode fighting; and the players stop expecting they have any right to police the game either.
Just go inside and PLAY. If you think RP is bad, then make it better, sheesh... Bet half of the people here don't play illarion once a week.
. . .
Oh and locking topics make a person feel lyke they're worthless, doing it WONT arrange the situation.
Both of them should be working for the same thing, to make illarion a better experience for everyone.
Before you could ask a GM to help you in a quest, and you'd have one, who'd be happy to help you. Nowadays, it all seems to be a player VS GM war.
Personally when i'm playing the game (something i'm doing very little of right now [unfortunatly]), i don't care what the others are doing, as long as they don't disturb my RP, and I find someone to RP with in this RP game.
That said, i think the Gms should lay a bit off the banning, and the defensive mode fighting; and the players stop expecting they have any right to police the game either.
Just go inside and PLAY. If you think RP is bad, then make it better, sheesh... Bet half of the people here don't play illarion once a week.
. . .
Oh and locking topics make a person feel lyke they're worthless, doing it WONT arrange the situation.
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Korm Kormsen
- Posts: 2414
- Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 5:46 pm
- Location: Illarion nordpol, wenns den gibt...
japhet,
since you opened another thread to the theme, prolongating the agony...
Aegohl seems to be an grown up person.
a person who states, not to have enough time to play this game.
but a person, who got enough time, to read every flamepost in the forums of a game, that does not interest him enough, to play it.
a person who once was part of the group, that makes the game move. (staff)
a person, who uses his disponible time to great extense for criticising the actual members of this same group.
after your post i looked up in a dictionary. and the word "pathetic" still seems the adequate word, to describe his behaviour.
or how else should one discribe a person, not able, to let go a thing, he is loathing?
and - i am not playing illarion, to make friends "in these parts".
i have got enough friends in real life.
i am here to play this game.
(if that should produce an ooc friendship or two as byproduct, fine. but not necessary.)
------
to the main topic at hand:
yes, i agree, that we lost now one of the most interessant chars.
yes, it was fun to cross verbal swords with POStephen.
no, you are not right, if you conclude, that half a dozen, or a little more, players who advocate his return, are a majority.
no, you are not right, when you think, the staff should now back up and allow this player in again.
for the last statement i think i owe an explanation:
right or wrong, this decision has been taken. it has been taken by mayority vote of the whole staff.
if it will not be upheld, than all of the players, in future cases of temp. or perm. bans will dig up this case, to argue a change of their sanctions.
that would make illarion ungovernable. = unplayable.
i would not want that - period-
korm
ps: thinking some more about making/having friends around these parts...
could that be part of the problems at hand?
somebody else did mention it not long ago.
groups of ooc virtual friends, that prefer to RP "in group"? versus a lot of individual players, that not gang up?
just thinking...
since you opened another thread to the theme, prolongating the agony...
that may be. but as so many others here, i simply express my thoughts.Oh, one last thing. Korm, calling Aegohl pathetic is likely to not make you very many friends around these parts. Try to keep up.
Aegohl seems to be an grown up person.
a person who states, not to have enough time to play this game.
but a person, who got enough time, to read every flamepost in the forums of a game, that does not interest him enough, to play it.
a person who once was part of the group, that makes the game move. (staff)
a person, who uses his disponible time to great extense for criticising the actual members of this same group.
after your post i looked up in a dictionary. and the word "pathetic" still seems the adequate word, to describe his behaviour.
or how else should one discribe a person, not able, to let go a thing, he is loathing?
and - i am not playing illarion, to make friends "in these parts".
i have got enough friends in real life.
i am here to play this game.
(if that should produce an ooc friendship or two as byproduct, fine. but not necessary.)
------
to the main topic at hand:
yes, i agree, that we lost now one of the most interessant chars.
yes, it was fun to cross verbal swords with POStephen.
no, you are not right, if you conclude, that half a dozen, or a little more, players who advocate his return, are a majority.
no, you are not right, when you think, the staff should now back up and allow this player in again.
for the last statement i think i owe an explanation:
right or wrong, this decision has been taken. it has been taken by mayority vote of the whole staff.
if it will not be upheld, than all of the players, in future cases of temp. or perm. bans will dig up this case, to argue a change of their sanctions.
that would make illarion ungovernable. = unplayable.
i would not want that - period-
korm
ps: thinking some more about making/having friends around these parts...
could that be part of the problems at hand?
somebody else did mention it not long ago.
groups of ooc virtual friends, that prefer to RP "in group"? versus a lot of individual players, that not gang up?
just thinking...
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Samantha Meryadeles
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- Contact:
He says something very true herefor the last statement i think i owe an explanation:
right or wrong, this decision has been taken. it has been taken by mayority vote of the whole staff.
if it will not be upheld, than all of the players, in future cases of temp. or perm. bans will dig up this case, to argue a change of their sanctions.
that would make illarion ungovernable. = unplayable.
i would not want that - period-
If we allow that a bunch of players, friends and partners of him ingame, can make a desicion by the whole, WHOLE, staff void and unbann a banned player, than in future the staff will get blackmailed more often every time someone who has some friends or who got a big group of peoples ingame, makes a rulebreak and gets a punishment.
Means those like Stephen can allow them rulebreaks, once the staff wants to punish him, he just gatheres friends and those who need his char ig, they start yelling at the gms, and unbanned is the rulebreaker.
Welcome to illarion, where you can break any rule aslong as you can gather peoples to bail you out.
No, really, i dont want to see something like that happen. The staffs desicion is made, and it should be unchangable through player hands. Just because a few doesnt like it the staff shouldn't start making desicions void. or they would lose any real power to punish rulebreakers.
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Samantha Meryadeles
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No, not most players. Just a few. Don't twist the truth. And the staff works toward a working game. first comes the game, than the players. You still seem to forget that this game is in a test phase. it is still under development, and we are first testers, than players. In such a situation the game and its working comes first, the wish of a few players second.
And that are just a few, and not most. you should stop believing that illarion is just you guys. we have far more players than 6-10.
We have often over 40 chars ingame, means at least over 40 players. i dont see 40 guys speaking for him, not even 20 and more
And that are just a few, and not most. you should stop believing that illarion is just you guys. we have far more players than 6-10.
We have often over 40 chars ingame, means at least over 40 players. i dont see 40 guys speaking for him, not even 20 and more
Last edited by Samantha Meryadeles on Mon Jan 01, 2007 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Samantha Meryadeles
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Why do you think that someone who writes nothing here agrees with you who want stephen to be ingame again? it is the other way. they simply don't care for him and the whole thing.
Liles, please post a list of all players who want Stephen to be unbanned again. Players, not chars!
And "you guys" are those trying to get Stephen back again. 80 % of them need stephen as a player ingame because his chars are part of their roleplay or roleplaygrpup or simply pay for their stuff <_<
Liles, please post a list of all players who want Stephen to be unbanned again. Players, not chars!
And "you guys" are those trying to get Stephen back again. 80 % of them need stephen as a player ingame because his chars are part of their roleplay or roleplaygrpup or simply pay for their stuff <_<
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Samantha Meryadeles
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I am not. A dev who has power over a GM char and the GM abilitys is to he concidered a gm, and his chars have to be kept secret just like the chars of any "gamemaster". if you cant agree on that fact and the fact that tghe staff sees it like that, than you maybe search yourself an other game where the staff allows the players to interpret the rules and say what shall be or not. have fun trying to find such a game.
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Samantha Meryadeles
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Try to understand. His chars still has to be kept secret like the chars of any "Gamemaster". He has a gm-char, he has gm-powers, he can do gm-stuff if necessary, his other chars are to be kept secret. the whole staff decided about that, and the staff decided the chars of a dev have to be kept secret aswell. accept it.