Skill suggestions.

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Mah'dee Daye
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Skill suggestions.

Post by Mah'dee Daye »

****Edit: A FULL example of a skill point system is now layed out in a later reply.

First off, thanks for making such a wonderful game and environment. I am new, but I have enjoyed so far the roleplaying. It's very refreshing compared to the whole hack & slash scene.

I have been playing lately and have come up with a couple things I think would help improve the experience for new players and encourage them to stay and help develop the world.

The skill system is a little odd when first starting out. For example, I am an 189 year old elvish minstel type character (that's young for an elf). But when I start the game my only skill in a weapon is concussion types (hardly the idea type for an elf or my character) and I can hardly play the harp.

If I were to play my character based around the skills I have in the beginning I would have to reduce his age to about 20 (which would leave me at home with my family and incapable of roleplaying).

My proposal is this..a skill point system. This would of course be based on the race and also trade selection of the character. At the beginning of the game you would get a set amount of skill points to put into the skills (this would be the only time you would see the numbers so as not to ruin the roleplay when you actually get started).

An example of skills that I could select from during character generation as an elf and a bard would include items such as:

Long Swords
Bows
Harp
Lute
Flute
etc..

There of course would be more, but this gives a general idea.

All this would be done during character generation and the skills are REQUIRED to reflect the history of the character. To ensure proper utilization this could be checked by the GMs before the character is approved.

Using this method would improve the gameplay by allowing the skills a character has to be equivalent to the skills the character has obtained from birth up until actual creation in RL.

This would of course also reduce the temptation to powergame. For example, I have felt it necessary to sit in a room and play my harp over and over and over again (I of course roleplayed actually practicing the harp even though no one was watching). I do this in an attempt to get my skills up to the actual amount of experience I would have naturally at my age as an elf who has chosen to base his life (and earnings) on his proficiency in using both musical instruments and his words.

So, even though I am enjoying myself immensely, my one complaint is that my roleplay is hindered somewhat by my skills not living up to the realistic idea of my character. And feeling the need to increase these skills before I can get into any of the major story lines with the ability to realistically portray my character.

Also, I don't mean having the ability to MAX any of these skills at the beginning. Almost average to average at BEST. As not even the average 189 year old elf is PERFECT at using a long sword. And if you look at RL most people are generally only average at what they actually do best. People who really stand out (Like Albert Einstein or Abraham Lincoln) are people who have above average skils.

Realism is the key here.

And if it's not seen as beneficial to have them select their skills at the beginning before analyzing some of their roleplay, perhaps there could be an application for the aquisition of skills? The person would submit a list of skills he/she feels would be necessary for realistic roleplay and then also a couple examples where the character has actually used them in roleplay. Along with a thorough history of the character. The GM would then decide which skills are actually necessary for realism and at what level these skills should be.

I still find it hard to believe that an elf of 189 years (who was trained by his father to hunt using a bow. An example of my history can be seen here http://mahdee.50megs.com) has no skills in the bow or even the longsword.

Thanks for listening. :D
Last edited by Mah'dee Daye on Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Galahan
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Post by Galahan »

Good idea but the you can rp all that stuff. Everyone starts out with some skill ( used to not) and they have to rp that they are new to the isle but are good in something ( besides fighting) Or they find a trainer or master at a skill.
You can basically rp that you are a great minstrel while in the background you are training. Once you get your skill up to were you are in your rp then you won't have to lie anymore :wink: Well i hope that helped in a way.
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Gro'bul
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Post by Gro'bul »

Heard it many times. Why not instead not create a character with no skills in his background, then not only can you completely develope your char in the game, you don't have this problem either.

My char is a 7000 year old uber-blacksmith-swordsman-archer-magician-druid-carpenter-goldsmith-miner-gemcutter-farmer-herb lorist-parrier-dodger-lumberjack-alchemist-musician-tailor-fluent in all languages elf who also has a army of 10,000 pigs/rabbits/demons/undead.

That sound silly? Of course it does. Simple fact of the matter is this is a game, and *poof* you got a awesome char is nonsensical. If you diligently play your char, practice his craft for like 1 hour a day, you can have fun and will have great harp skills in no time. However being a great swordsman/archer/harp player/crafter/ect will take you much much much longer.

As for the packets, theres not really much variety, but it will hardly influence your future much.
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Mah'dee Daye
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Post by Mah'dee Daye »

I completely understand that, and it is what I am doing. But it would be better for new characters to get into the game if they didn't HAVE to do that and therefore be tempted to powergame just to get there skills up to realistic minimums. Plus, we start this game to get away from the normal grinding that gets really repetitive and boring in most RPGs. It would be nice not to have to start the game with a grinding process.

Also, it's hard to convince a pig of your increased ability on the bow. :P

And I didn't RP that I am new to the island or even Trollsbane. My character has been there for several years actually. It would be silly for a travelling minstrel like my character to NEVER have visited Trollsbane. I just play as though I havn't done anything in town that was so large as to leave an impression on the townsfolk. In a large city like Trollsbane it is fairly reasonable to assume a man can hang around the city for several years without getting becoming well known or even obtaining any type of reputation among the people there.

And thanks, that did help me to gather my thoughts on the matter a little.
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Mah'dee Daye
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Post by Mah'dee Daye »

Gro'bul wrote:Heard it many times. Why not instead not create a character with no skills in his background, then not only can you completely develope your char in the game, you don't have this problem either.

My char is a 7000 year old uber-blacksmith-swordsman-archer-magician-druid-carpenter-goldsmith-miner-gemcutter-farmer-herb lorist-parrier-dodger-lumberjack-alchemist-musician-tailor-fluent in all languages elf who also has a army of 10,000 pigs/rabbits/demons/undead.

That sound silly? Of course it does. Simple fact of the matter is this is a game, and *poof* you got a awesome char is nonsensical. If you diligently play your char, practice his craft for like 1 hour a day, you can have fun and will have great harp skills in no time. However being a great swordsman/archer/harp player/crafter/ect will take you much much much longer.

As for the packets, theres not really much variety, but it will hardly influence your future much.
Perhaps you did not read my post. All character designs would have be based on approval by GM and would have to match the characters history. No one gets perfect in EVERYTHING and I am sure there are not many (if any) 7000 year old people in Illarion, even among the elves. So a character like you just mentioned would not at any point get approved

Also, if you would have read my post, you would have noticed I mentioned the skills not being able to pass AVERAGE in the beginning. As it is unrealistic for everyone to be perfect at something. In real life most people only have average skills even in what they do best.

Therefore, I did not say anyone should have AWESOME skills at anything when they first start. AVERAGE at max was my statement. This would eliminate all together what you are afraid of.

Also, if we all started with no skills and had to level them then we would ALL have to start as 12 year old characters that havn't learned anything yet.

Either way, I was just politely pointing out the fact that it lacks realism to give an elf a minor skill in concussion weapons and nothing in a long sword or short bow (my skill set was based on the bard so I could get the harp and such).
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Gro'bul
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Post by Gro'bul »

Mah'dee Daye wrote:
Perhaps you did not read my post. All character designs would have be based on approval by GM and would have to match the characters history. No one gets perfect in EVERYTHING and I am sure there are not many (if any) 7000 year old people in Illarion, even among the elves. So a character like you just mentioned would not at any point get approved
I skimmed it. This would be way too inefficient for GM's to doll out characters, because of human intervention its not fair also. I was using extremes I suppose.


Mah'dee Daye wrote:Also, if you would have read my post, you would have noticed I mentioned the skills not being able to pass AVERAGE in the beginning. As it is unrealistic for everyone to be perfect at something. In real life most people only have average skills even in what they do best.
Average, what is average? What defines average for blacksmithing? This measurement is too imprecise to formulate a system, and is purely subjective. Average skill could be maxed skill with average attributes, that would be average wouldn't it?
Mah'dee Daye wrote: Therefore, I did not say anyone should have AWESOME skills at anything when they first start. AVERAGE at max was my statement. This would eliminate all together what you are afraid of.
With 1 at every attribute, you would be the a terrible craftsman, even with maxed skill.
Mah'dee Daye wrote: Also, if we all started with no skills and had to level them then we would ALL have to start as 12 year old characters that havn't learned anything yet.
Elfs become adults at 100, you could easily be 30 as a human and not know crafting skills. You could have studied animals, but abandoned your studies to start a life of herb lore and alchemy, your 200, but elfs live forever so you got lots of time.
Mah'dee Daye wrote: Either way, I was just politely pointing out the fact that it lacks realism to give an elf a minor skill in concussion weapons and nothing in a long sword or short bow (my skill set was based on the bard so I could get the harp and such).
What "Realism"? There are no elfs in real life. Who is to say elfs don't lay around most of their life getting high on sibanac anyway? So use the 150 coins you got to buy a sword.

Anyways, I agree we need more starting options, but really they effect your outcome barely at all. Use starting money and acquainteces with extra junk to get going. Right now its a fair start IMO, before you got 40 coins and a hammer and shovel, now you get to pick from 3 classes with more than barely any money and tools. I guess I'm being such a hardass cause I"m angry. GRRRR
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Post by Misjbar »

Elfs become adults at 100
*cough*180*cough*
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Gro'bul
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Post by Gro'bul »

Misjbar wrote:
Elfs become adults at 100
*cough*180*cough*
100 is the minimum age, my mistake, Misjbar is quite right.
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Mah'dee Daye
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Post by Mah'dee Daye »

With decent intelligence most people can tell the difference between someone who is average, someone who is poor, and someone who is excellent in an area.

Average in game would be the ability to use the skill to get at least a somewhat successful result. For example, when I play my harp I often get the words that I play with a crash. Playing a harp with a crash is obviously horrible and below average. I'm not sure what the average statements are IG but it would be something like this. "Mah'dee Daye plays a slow tune on his harp" and something excellent would be more like, "Mah'dee Daye plays a wonderfully inspiring set on his harp"

The stats of a character would be taken into account when being judged by a GM. Logically someone with 1 Strength would be denied if he wanted increased stats in lumberjacking or 2 handed axe skills.

There are common learned skills among people groups. Especially racial in fantasy settings. For example, it is well known that MOST elves when growing up learn at least somewhat in a bow or long sword. This is like a normal citizen in my country at least learns basic mathematics. People who don't know how to add or subtract are very rare.
Elfs become adults at 100, you could easily be 30 as a human and not know crafting skills. You could have studied animals, but abandoned your studies to start a life of herb lore and alchemy, your 200, but elfs live forever so you got lots of time.
If my character had a less than normal upbringing in the elvish community as you have suggested then I would select the appropriate skills.

Also, just because an elf is not concidered an adult in the community until he is 180 years old that does not mean that an elf of 100 had less of a chance to learn things than a human who lived 100 years. The idea of maturity for elves is based on the fact that some can live over a 1000 years old.
What "Realism"? There are no elfs in real life. Who is to say elfs don't lay around most of their life getting high on sibanac anyway?
Things can be "realistic" while still using situations that are impossible in our normal world. It's all based on logic. For example.. a human baby beating up an army of 1,000,000 orcs is unrealistic, but an elf using a bow to hunt an elk is realistic.. once of course the idea of what an elf is defined. In order to help you understand please replace the word "realistic" with "believeable."

Also, the designers of the game and the general idea of elves in fantasy dictates the nature of elves. That is what says they don't sit around all day getting high. Although there is probally one or two that do. The general idea of culture and what not is defined in the races section of the website.

Hope that helps.

Also, glad we can agree that there can be improvement in character generation. And I can understand why you would be upset if you just skimmed my original post. I am sure there are alot of people that have said thing like..

"giv me skillz thatt i dont deserve so i can roin the game for everyone!!!1"

*laughs*
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Gro'bul
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Post by Gro'bul »

Mah'dee Daye wrote:The stats of a character would be taken into account when being judged by a GM. Logically someone with 1 Strength would be denied if he wanted increased stats in lumberjacking or 2 handed axe skills.
This is just quixotic. Gm checking char attributes, backstory, ect is too inefficient and fairness is questionable. Basic packets for each skill (lumberjacking skill+axe/saw/leather gloves/pants/shirt/shoes) seems the only fair way.

Even better explanation, your character has pursued a career in which there are no skills for, Writing/sailing/trading/ect., and is now settled into a more traditional craft or taken up a hobby in music.
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Mah'dee Daye
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Post by Mah'dee Daye »

*Looks up quixotic..*

*makes the 'oooh' sound with his mouth* I like it!

And that is actually a pretty good idea. I can't use it now though because it is written in my background that I learned music from my mother growing up.

For now I will just sit around going:

"#me practices his harp playing again."

and then hitting right click, use, right click, use, right click, use until I turn blue (literally)
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Post by Cervius Triri »

I have a question thats kind of off topic, but still on the topic of Skills.
Weapon damage is calculated by strength am I correct?
So someone who has the higher strength does more damage with swords, right?
I'm just going to assume I'm right there, but with peircing weapons I think there should be a change. I think dexterity should calculate damage with peircing weapons. Honestly, if you stab someone you stabbed them, regardless of how hard you stabbed them. Its where you stab them that counts I'd imagine. If I could get some reassurance form someone who has stabbed someone that'd be great! :P I think it makes more sense for Dexterity to calculate damage for peircing weapons.
And if this is already the system, well I suppose I'll just shut up then!
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Mah'dee Daye
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Post by Mah'dee Daye »

Well, I still think that strength would have to be a factor as having more *umph* behind the jab certainly would help. Also, alot of piercing weapons (like larger swords) are heavy and awkward to use without some muscle.

Dexterity, from what I understand, is used for missile weapons like bows and also for crafting skills.

I doubt that is something that will be changed much. But I am sure your suggestions are highly appreciated.
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Post by Poots »

I haven't read the last for posts or so, but overall, I dislike this idea. you'll have to work your character up just like everyone else.
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Mah'dee Daye
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Post by Mah'dee Daye »

Thank you for your opinion. And I trust that you diligently pursued the matter as far as discerning my motivations and the actual guidelines for the idea before forming it. As I, of course, would show you the same respect.

That being said, I respect your opinion and will reevalute my own motivations to see if perhaps it is as you said. Maybe I am trying to get around the work that everyone else has to do?
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Post by Poots »

my version of this idea:

you get 3 or 5 points, to spend on a list of skills, 1 point only for each skill. and these points make you skills really crappy, but you have them. and I mean like a dark blue. not like only one point but still a dark blue.



I realize your intentions, but I think it could be easily abused.
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NirAntae
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Post by NirAntae »

Alright, correct me if I'm wrong...

but it sounds like your basic objection is 'I didn't get it, so it shouldn't be that way for new people'.

What? How does that make sense?

I have tried to get no less than 10 other people to join Illa since I first started playing. Every last one of them got frustrated anywhere from an hour to two days in, despite having me to guide them around and show them the basics, because of HOW impossible this game is as a newbie.

We want to ATTRACT new people, not scare them away.

I see NO problem with making it a bit easier for a newcomer to jump right into the game. I have never played another game where you didn't get at *least* one skill at a moderate level... in terms of this game, perhaps a turquoise color; about 1/3 of what is possible.

To once again use UO as an example, I believe you are given 100 total points to distribute between up to three skills of your choice, with none allowed to be over 50.

In some games you get 'package skills', with one or two moderate skills and a few more very basic ones depending on the class you take.

And so on.
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Mah'dee Daye
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Post by Mah'dee Daye »

That is it in a nutshell.

Although I am still new, I would love to see an influx of newbies coming in to help enhance the roleplaying experience.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the game so far. However, I was expressing the one thing that made me frustrated enough to want to give up as a new person.

Of course my frustration was added to a bit by the fact that skills were not increasing for alot of people (including myself) for a good part of my start here. Although, it seems to be working good now.

I appreciate your understanding.
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Post by Jalen Noel »

Did you say it's working good now? I still can't get anything.
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Mah'dee Daye
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Post by Mah'dee Daye »

Oh. I'm not sure. It worked for me and my harp playing.

*shrugs*
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Post by Garen »

i like the idea mah'dee, but..
lets just say they do let it hapen(the gms) what would the people whoalready started do? they dont get anything do they? yeah, the big guy it wouldnt matter to, but howabout people that started a week or so befor it hapens.

:roll:

i ahve a fealing im rambling.. ((im not triping off of caffine this time!!..just no sleep :wink: ))
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Mah'dee Daye
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Post by Mah'dee Daye »

I realize giving a general idea makes people confused. I'll write up an exact example of a skill point system based on currently implemented skills (at least the ones listed online) when I again have too much caffeine.
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Post by Aristeaus »

I actually like the idea.

And the arguement of ' What will people who have already started do ' Is not a factor, this game is still in testing, we would have passed that stage. If you think this is unfair i will say this to the newer players.

The server you play on is not the original server, there was one before and on this server many players had characters they had had for years whom were all wiped, and they had to start from scratch. Its all part of the process of development.
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Post by Keikan Hiru »

I could only quickly browse through this topic, so my comments may be a bit off.

First of all, its a nice idea.

On the other hand, I do not see the great benefits that would justify the amount of work that would be needed to create this system, in comparison to our current system.

Currently you can pick "packages" of skills and items during character creation.
So basicly we are already offering your idea, althougt in a restricted version.
If you think we are missing vital packages, or you think some of the these settings are unfair compared to others you could propose better ones.
I'd rather see our current system improved instead of abandoned.
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Post by Aristeaus »

I agree Keikan but i think the general idea was to have a certain amount of skill points which could be distributed through certain ' Basic Skills ' during character creation.

Give the new players a chance to get started as it were.

Edit :

Which could work well with the current system in the area that the package skills could be the only skills which the skill points could be distributed.
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Post by Mah'dee Daye »

So here is a FULL example of the skill point system and how it would work.

At the beginning you would have 30 full percentage points to utilize. Based on selections for race and what class you want to be based on (a loose choice without full commitment just to give you a beginning selection of skills) you will have a selection of skills in which to utilize these percentage points.

You would also have skills that automatically come with your selection (IE: elves knowing Elven)

You can do any of the following with your points:

Take 1 skills at 30%
Take 2 skills at 15%
Take 3 skills at 10%
Take 4 skills at 7.5%
Take 5 skills at 6%

You would not be able to take anymore than 5 skills at the beginning. If this seems like too much you could increase the cost of skills as you increase the number of skills you choose. This would actually add a bit of realism and would look like so:

1 skill at 30%
2 skills at 15%
3 skills at 10%
4 skills at 5%
5 skills at 3%

Now here are examples of skill availabilty based on beginning race and class selections (remember I am new):

Elves:
Automatic:
Elven Language
Common Language

Elven-Bard
Selectable:
library research
glass blowing
tailoring
baking
fishing
lumberjacking
carpentery
magic resistance
distance fighting
slashing weapons (I believe this is the one for one handed swords)
lute playing
harp playing
flute playing

Elven-Fighter
Selectable:
glass blowing
tailoring
baking
fishing
lumberjacking
carpentery
magic resistance
parry
distance fighting
concussion weapons
puncture weapons
slashing weapons

Elven-Thief
Selectable:
thievery
library research
glass blowing
tailoring
baking
fishing
lumberjacking
carpentery
magic resistance
dodge
distance fighting
puncture weapons (daggers I assume)

Elven-Druid
Selectable:
herbery
library research
glass blowing
tailoring
baking
fishing
lumberjacking
carpentery
magic resistance
concussion weapons

Elven-Mage
Selectable:
library research
glass blowing
tailoring
baking
fishing
lumberjacking
carpentery
magic resistance
concussion weapons

Elven-Warlock
library research
glass blowing
tailoring
baking
fishing
lumberjacking
carpentery
magic resistance
concussion weapons
puncture weapons
slashing weapons

Elven-Craftsman
Selectable:
smithing
goldsmithing
mining
gem cutting
peasantry
glass blowing
tailoring
baking
fishing
lumberjacking
carpentery
magic resistance
distance fighting
slashing weapons

Elven-Peasant
(I have no clue what this class is supposed to do. Harvest grain? :P)
Selectable:
peasantry
library research
glass blowing
tailoring
baking
fishing
lumberjacking
carpentery
magic resistance
distance fighting
slashing weapons

I was really going to go through all the races with these classes and such, but then I realized that my caffeine was wearing off. Most other races would be similar except weapon choices would be different based on racial characteristics. Magic Resistance should only be available to elves, fairys, and any of the mage classes for other races. Few other things would differ.

It doesn't seem like it would be too hard to implement (of course I am not a programmer). Maybe a deep reconstruction of the skill packages would be more reasonable using racial/class set ups. For example packages for Elven-Bards would look like this:

Elven-Bard Pack
elven language (good)
common language (good)
A choice of one of the instrument skills (a tad bit below average)
distance fighting (below average)
And a choice of one of the crafting packages. (below average)

Another example would be for an Orc-Fighter:

Orc-Fighter Pack
orc language (good)
common language (good)
choice of 1 weapon skill (a tad bit below average)
choice of another weapon skill (below average)
Parry (below average)
choice of crafting skill (minimal)

I hope this helps elaborate on what I mean.
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krazytoe
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Post by krazytoe »

I am still fairly new, i didn't get to pick a skill pack or anything. My character however happens to be doing very well. on the other hand, i did make her a history of being pampered and not really having to learn anythinguntil she got to Gobaith.
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Post by Nitram »

You point, Mah'dee is good in my eyes, and was allready planned. A mode to select the start skills and items completly freely.

But this is pretty difficult to put onto a website. And you proposal is not really easier :)

The current packs are static, because it was the most easiest thing. Maybe they need a little change there and there. But all in all this system will be the only usable for the next time.

Nitram
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Kevin Lightdot
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Post by Kevin Lightdot »

I dont like the idea of being able to choose to upgrade one skill to alot.
Since you would have even more pure god knows what chars.
Being able to choose your skills and items at start is a great idea. But more in the way of having to choose 5 skills, not being able to take one skill and pwn in it when starting off.

We've got plenty of barbarian attribute chars acting like honorous knights and that stuff. I personaly wouldn't like to see those kind chars starting off with a high skill already, since they would pwn even more eveb more and act like honorous, intelligent people while they have an intelligence of 6 or lower.

But some things will always be a problem: Those who want to pwn and don't care if they don't act like their attributes, the people who are more like persona players than roleplayers.
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Llama
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Post by Llama »

Hmm, i have an idea for how it could work techincally

New player gets 5 items [special coins or something]

He then walks to the NPCs present on the (newly arranged) newbie island. The NPC offers to 'teach' him the skills (in OOC) in return for these items.

WHen you give the item to the NPC, he increases your skill by X%. You finish off all the items and then proceed to leave.

However, make the items instant rot to prevent abuse (*starts 5 new chars, dumps tickets on floor, picks them up to overpower*)

Erm.. something like that?
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