Characters with texture

[Cliu Beothach]

[quote]#me steps inside, scanning the room.
#me walks over to the chest and opens it.
#me takes some bottles out and closes it again.
#me turns and walks outside again. /quote]

You can't interact with that?

The player gave you the information that he has bottles. A thief may want to try and steals these now. If bottles interest you, you can surely act from there.

[Zach Bora]

bottles of what? If I was a thief I'd steal wine but not water

[Dyluck]

My problem is, and I'll tell you, the players that doesn't play anymore, that haven't played for years, and that have no idea of what's happening IG and still insist on giving old fashioned opinions based on a time that will never come back.
But I guess you can, yet. Your point of views are good and you know how to write a decent post, different from many, what may be a pity that you're not IG anymore as I hear many saying. But your point of view, Dyluck, has no base since you don't know what's going on lately.

Is that what this is really all about? Well if you don't like to hear arguments from a guy who's not playing the game anymore, I'm not surprised. But if you'll notice, my argument and my point isn't of the "we should do this" because "this is what is happening in game" type. You may assume that all your fellow roleplayers want and derive enjoyment from the exact same thing as you, namely a highly elaborated #me. However, the dessenting posters (who are playing this game, for your preference) and the general trend of roleplayers' less elaborated #me's ingame (as provided by you) have already shown this not to be entirely true and that they don't all infact want exactly what you want. It's easy for everyone to take the experiences they enjoy and do, and conveniently call it "roleplaying", but it's been a long known reality that people enjoy this game with differently weighted aspects of what they consider to be "roleplaying". You may think long and elaborated #me's are very important, and I clearly acknowledge that a lot of people share that sentiment, but clearly there are also many who don't, especially to the degree that you do. So I don't need to be "playing" currently, in order to name what I feel is significant for my enjoyment, or state my beliefs about how Illarion culture developed, do I?

Anyhow, getting to your guard and person talking situation: Just because you extend a hand shake, doesn't mean the other person necesarily must accept it, right? And how do you know that the other person even knows what your "sigil" means to begin with? Perhaps he wants to learn more before he decides whether he wants to shake your hand? In any case, that person asked you a question, based on the information you provided. So what's wrong wtih furthering the conversation and find chances to work information that you want to share into it bit by bit. Do you really find his question to be an unreasonable reaction? Why do you assume that another player necessarily has to give you the #me reaction that you expect or that he will think like you? You may be very interested in sharing your appearance, but that doesn't mean the other player even has an appearance of significance and may just want to further roleplay by conversation. Do you really think he will even remember your appearance 5 minutes later? Or the appearance of some 200 or more other characters? Could one not work single pieces of information about appearances into other parts of the conversation or interaction that might be more memorable to him, rather than clustering it all into a giant lump in an introduction which he may not even care about at first? Sure you could, but you don't have to, nor should you expect the same from the other person.

The thing here, and those found in all your examples, is that you want to see certain details or elaboration from another character which brings that action or description to life in your view. But the problem is, the other player may not even be trying to express anything that colorful to that extend or significant by that action that you are hoping for. He may not even want to be very noticable in any way and simply made a small #me to show he's doing something at all. He may not want to interact with you about that particular action. Interaction may be key to roleplaying but that doesn't mean every single action someone does necessarily has the objective of giving someone else a hole to jump into. Perhaps this is only one small action in a bigger chain of actions he wants to progress, and that the elaborated details of this specific action is not that important to him so much as the resulting idea he wants to get across in the overall scheme of things.

Every player views this game at a different "pace" and at a different "zoom" of the game world that they're focused on. Everyone holds a different value for what they feel is most significant in the vast ocean of jumbled ideas and habits that Illarionites have summarized into a single convenient word they call "roleplaying". You may put a lot of weight on the minor details and the descriptiveness of how your character reacts to the smallest of things but at the same time there are those more concerned with how a character reacts and fits into the complex relationships that make up the world on more of a macro-level. It's somewhat like the idea that some people focus on an "interesting character in ITSELF" which probably has more complex characteristics and detailed individual interactions, while some people focus on a "meaningful character on the WHOLE" which more contributes to a significant piece to the collective and develops plots and relationships. A character can come to life just as well from the former as from the latter. I only tell you this as point so you can consider that there is a high level of subjectivity in the assumptions (what makes this "roleplaying" game enjoyable) behind the point of quarrel here and accept that there are alternate views of those assumptions to your own. The point was not to prove which view is "right".

We don't have to save the world every day or plot a plan to ambush a politician, we don't have to do big things every day to contribute to this "big picture" of a character you've mentioned Dyluck. We can play regular characters with regular stories aswell if we want to.

You misunderstand the meaning of "big picture". What I mean by that, is the product of a summation of things, rather than their individual pieces; to look not just at the value of the individual event or interaction, but rather the overall development of your characters or their relationships that the sum of these events have come to, or will, create. Although, "big things" probably wouldn't hurt either.

And you don't "have" to do anything. I'm fairly certain I didn't say you had to.

[The Returner]

My problem is, and I'll tell you, the players that doesn't play anymore, that haven't played for years, and that have no idea of what's happening IG and still insist on giving old fashioned opinions based on a time that will never come back.
But I guess you can, yet. Your point of views are good and you know how to write a decent post, different from many, what may be a pity that you're not IG anymore as I hear many saying. But your point of view, Dyluck, has no base since you don't know what's going on lately.

Thats like saying somebody whose new has a better base of oppinion just because they play.

This is STILL Illarion. This isent some game thats literally divided by time. Yes there is a degree of seperation, but the only big change in this community is the account system in my oppinion. I could as easily say your oppinions are baseless because you don't know whats HAPPENED in game as opposed to whats HAPPENING. Not to mention, even if some older players have said they don't play the game anymore, whats to stop them from covertly signing in just to see whats going on from time to time? may not be as blind as you think.

[Pocal]

bottles of what? If I was a thief I'd steal wine but not water

you could then try

#me examines the bottles to see what they contain.


When I'm encumbered, I usually say I'm draggin a heavy bag, and generally do it to see if anyone will try and rob me, and I think that I would go along with it, dependent on the RP though...

You can interact though, with almost any #me i think.

[Faladron]

#me steps inside, scanning the room.
#me walks over to the chest and opens it.
#me takes some bottles out and closes it again.
#me turns and walks outside again.

You can't interact with that?

The player gave you the information that he has bottles. A thief may want to try and steals these now. If bottles interest you, you can surely act from there.

What fun is it if you see someone go into the shop like:

#me steps inside, scanning the room.
#me walks over to the chest and opens it.
#me takes some bottles out and closes it again.
#me turns and walks outside again.

There's no point where someone else could join in there, or atleast it's very hard.. however if he would get himself into trouble a little like:

Are you guys picking on me..

And my point is still valid as several people just walk in the shop, stand next to chest our client obviously unable to show any of their actions and then they leave immediately in a matter of seconds giving you no time to react.

[Quinasa]

So... I'm confused. Are you complaining about characters or the client?

[Faladron]

Read the first post again and you'll see.

I'm complaining about characters unable to help to create roleplay feeling by laziness, and no use of #me what'sover.

I complain about characters.

[Aristeaus]

I allways thought it was a choice to #me

[Cliu Beothach]

#me steps inside, scanning the room.
#me walks over to the chest and opens it.
#me takes some bottles out and closes it again.
#me turns and walks outside again.

You can't interact with that?

The player gave you the information that he has bottles. A thief may want to try and steals these now. If bottles interest you, you can surely act from there.

What fun is it if you see someone go into the shop like:

#me steps inside, scanning the room.
#me walks over to the chest and opens it.
#me takes some bottles out and closes it again.
#me turns and walks outside again.

There's no point where someone else could join in there, or atleast it's very hard.. however if he would get himself into trouble a little like:

Are you guys picking on me..

And my point is still valid as several people just walk in the shop, stand next to chest our client obviously unable to show any of their actions and then they leave immediately in a matter of seconds giving you no time to react.

Or maybe I just feel that it isn't that hard to interact with that #me.

[Sidney Varguea]

@ Dyluck:

See? Here are the differences. Why does Faladron understood what I meant by the guard-thing and you didn't?
Because he still plays.
People like those doesn't interact at all. I didn't say I expected a #me. But you didn't follow my example, again, because you aren't playing the game anymore. It happens all the time. People going to your character, asking your name out of nowhere, asking if you're a guard, asking if you're a knight... people yelling "selling weapons and armors!"
And the appearance of 200 characters?! All I can say begins and ends with a "L" with a "O" between them. LOL.
And so you can know: such players play no role, no scheme on things. They are only interested in filling their #i list, trainning like hell and "#me smiles" to everyone. Try playing the game one day, a single day, say, a sunday and you'll notice and understand what I am trying to tell you.

What you didn't understand is that the roleplayers I mentioned doesn't RP at all. Their "non-elaborated" #mes are, as much, like a "gate" to continue to play Illarion - by other means, you get to see a lot of characters IG not only with the same tile set but also the same personality. There is little difference between this type of player and a NPC. They don't choose, like you're thinking and like other players, to use small and quick #mes; they simply choose nothing, because they have no idea of what they are doing, sometimes I get the impression they copy what they see in others non-elaborated characters #mes. They are only: #me smiles, #me nods, #me grins, #me shrugs... as if they had a limited list of #mes they coul do. I got your point and I can say I can have much fun with players that follow your method, since it happens very oftenly, however, it's not to these players I am refering to. Hmmm, how can I put it... Well, the players I am refering to can be described like newies that know the game commands. Yes, that's it. Do you agree with this?
And before you ask me how I know they are not rping their own way - I know because I am playing the game. And believe me, they can be annoying.
But answering your question: Yes, you do. For you to know what is significant for your enjoyment and state your beliefs you should be playing the game. How can you know that, since you left, the whole game changed? Let's suppose it did and that none of the Illarion you knew is left. This being said and imagined, how could you know what is significant for your enjoyment? And actually, that's exactly what I think that have happened. Your arguments are rather good, but as I said before, they mean nothing if you don't know what's going on, they have no base. This also being said, you can always state your beliefs about how illarion culture developed, but you can't expect that, without seeing with your own eyes what's happening, that they'll be correct.

As Faladron said, we don't have to save/ destroy the world everyday. You seem to have forgotten that our characters are, also, people. And as for people, they do live what you call a mere "detail". What makes you think a simple conversation held around a campfire with well done #mes aren't part of the "big picture"? To me, the "big picture" is the game entirely when you know your character and how he interacts with his surroundings and other characters. I prefer a single well played conversation around a campfire than thousands of terrible played quests ( that means: numerous characters all speaking at the same time, running from an edge of the world to another, going and coming back from the cross again and again and again as if nothing ever happened and actually no #mes. Is that what you meant by "a character as a whole"? Because if it was, I can see clearly why you and me cant agree).



@ Returner:

Getting IG a day a month doesn't get you to see the whole thing, does it?
And it's not the same as saying someone new know better than an old. It's, actually, the same as saying that you can't know better than someone who is playing actively.

[Dyluck]

@ Dyluck:

See? Here are the differences. Why does Faladron understood what I meant by the guard-thing and you didn't?
Because he still plays.
People like those doesn't interact at all. I didn't say I expected a #me. But you didn't follow my example, again, because you aren't playing the game anymore. It happens all the time. People going to your character, asking your name out of nowhere, asking if you're a guard, asking if you're a knight... people yelling "selling weapons and armors!"
And the appearance of 200 characters?! All I can say begins and ends with a "L" with a "O" between them. LOL.
And so you can know: such players play no role, no scheme on things. They are only interested in filling their #i list, trainning like hell and "#me smiles" to everyone. Try playing the game one day, a single day, say, a sunday and you'll notice and understand what I am trying to tell you.

What you didn't understand is that the roleplayers I mentioned doesn't RP at all. Their "non-elaborated" #mes are, as much, like a "gate" to continue to play Illarion - by other means, you get to see a lot of characters IG not only with the same tile set but also the same personality. There is little difference between this type of player and a NPC. They don't choose, like you're thinking and like other players, to use small and quick #mes; they simply choose nothing, because they have no idea of what they are doing, sometimes I get the impression they copy what they see in others non-elaborated characters #mes. They are only: #me smiles, #me nods, #me grins, #me shrugs... as if they had a limited list of #mes they coul do. I got your point and I can say I can have much fun with players that follow your method, since it happens very oftenly, however, it's not to these players I am refering to. Hmmm, how can I put it... Well, the players I am refering to can be described like newies that know the game commands. Yes, that's it. Do you agree with this?
And before you ask me how I know they are not rping their own way - I know because I am playing the game. And believe me, they can be annoying.
But answering your question: Yes, you do. For you to know what is significant for your enjoyment and state your beliefs you should be playing the game. How can you know that, since you left, the whole game changed? Let's suppose it did and that none of the Illarion you knew is left. This being said and imagined, how could you know what is significant for your enjoyment? And actually, that's exactly what I think that have happened. Your arguments are rather good, but as I said before, they mean nothing if you don't know what's going on, they have no base. This also being said, you can always state your beliefs about how illarion culture developed, but you can't expect that, without seeing with your own eyes what's happening, that they'll be correct.

Notice the part that I've bolded and therin lies the discrepancy of the "base" of your argument and mine. As you have just noted right there, we are talking about two types of people. You have to understand that I'm not arguing with you about what I think of the roleplay or contributions of particular types of people you've actually encountered or even the general population.

What you said was: Sample A has bad roleplaying due to lack of variable X, with X being elaborated #me's.

What I'm saying is: Variable X isn't the sole component or necessarily the most heavily weighted aspect of roleplaying in this game.

What I didn't conclude is that Sample A must be good roleplayers. As you have acknowledged, you've "often had fun" with those who lack X, so then X likely isn't the determining factor for Sample A being bad roleplayers. Rather, sample A probably has a miriad of flaws like lack of y and z and related flaws which compounds with X to make them seem like bad roleplayers. All I'm making a conclusion about is the weight of variable X to any evaluation of roleplay, not about whether the actual sample A are good roleplayers, since they are affected by more than just X.

Of course, the discussion in previous examples were under the premise that only the effect of X was being analyzed, all other things constant.

As Faladron said, we don't have to save/ destroy the world everyday. You seem to have forgotten that our characters are, also, people. And as for people, they do live what you call a mere "detail". What makes you think a simple conversation held around a campfire with well done #mes aren't part of the "big picture"? To me, the "big picture" is the game entirely when you know your character and how he interacts with his surroundings and other characters. I prefer a single well played conversation around a campfire than thousands of terrible played quests ( that means: numerous characters all speaking at the same time, running from an edge of the world to another, going and coming back from the cross again and again and again as if nothing ever happened and actually no #mes. Is that what you meant by "a character as a whole"? Because if it was, I can see clearly why you and me cant agree).

I'm pretty sure I already said that "big picture" doesn't necessarily mean saving/destroying the world or big quests. I also didn't say a "simple conversation held around a campfire with well done #mes AREN'T part of the big picture". You need to stop taking simplified opposites of what I say and assuming that they produce mutually exclusive propositions.

For a character as a whole, you might think of say Legolas or Gimli from LOTR. You may not know many indepth things about them and they're not very interesting on their own, and cliche if you will. Yet they are able to make a very meaningful contribution to the experience as a whole, just because they fit and compliment the other characters/themes. Like, a picture of a blob of green and brown might seem useless on its own until you realize it's a piece of a puzzle that depicts a beautiful forest. Mona Lisa's face on its own might be more beautiful than a blob of green and brown, but if you used that instead the overall picture probably wouldn't look as good as a whole.

[Zhauvalea]

It occurs to me that sometimes a strong dialogue can make up for a weak #me.

[Dyluck]

Also, I want to say that I've perhaps overcomplicated my explanation, regretably. The main point that just needs to be taken from me is that a lot of people get the true enjoyment from this game from things other than the #me's. It's just kind of like the idea of the division of story/tactical/communication/etc aspects in that roleplaying game essay somewhere that was discussed around here some time ago.