Runes and spells

Faladron · Post by **Faladron** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:20 am

So the elves Damien and Djironnima were taken as teachers for the Magic Academy and learned to refresh their knowledge in weeks of time?

That's quite interresting, I thought everyone should have the same chance to learn magic with the introduction of this system, not favoring the old magic characters to keep the moaning and complaints of the rest of the comunity to a minimum, yet exactly that has happened.

I want to point out that there is no excuse for them to be able to learn magics again starting (technically) from scratch as all other mages around far quicker, yet the rest has to fight their way through lessons of sheep and cake eating lizards to have the chance to eventually might take an exam to be able to study runes in some near future. (think about all the time involved)

Yes, consider this a rant and nothing more about the happenings in-game. I just don't get it and I don't think it's fair and to bring old issues up, Jeremy for example (sorry for always picking you, I don't know if you even want my support

), leading a simmilar academy in times with no magic around is no less a mage than those two elves are, yet he's being treated like some first grade student by the academy leadership, ignoring his offer to exchange knowledge like one would treat a magician of simmilar skills and instead dumping him in the same class as all the other novice and intermediate magicians.

I'd pretty much feel stupid and doubt my own knowledge if I'd be in his position (talking about the character now). Yet he has to suck up and live with it, while others get their runes for being "true mages" in the glimpse of an eye or what?

I'd love to hear an explenation, and it better be a good one aswell.

Misjbar · Post by **Misjbar** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:23 am

Agreed. It seems rather biased.

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 11:48 am

Personally, I have never believed that "unfairness" is a negative issue in this game wherein some people are given advantages over the norm. It's not really a competition, so I dont believe every single person needs to start on even ground. Those who are in authority supposedly have a good enough sense to observe certain players who they believe to be useful and responsible enough to be given certain advantages so that they can use them to better the game. In fact, there is already such an official group of "certain players" who are called GMs. So why shouldn't there be selectivity when giving lesser-advantages too? Being "selective" or "biased" for certain players when there is valid reason is not an innate evil, although many people don't seem to realize that.

And in the actual situation as I understand it, isn't this a step towards helping quell the complaint that there aren't enough avenues from which people can choose to learn magic? Just my thoughts.

Faladron · Post by **Faladron** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 12:10 pm

Dyluck wrote:And in the actual situation as I understand it, isn't this a step towards helping quell the complaint that there aren't enough avenues from which people can choose to learn magic? Just my thoughts.

This is not true, as said elves are still teachers of the academy and, as you said, players trusted enough to not go around and share their knowledge with others, backslashing the academy which has tought them.

It's rather controversial to keep a feature taking up so much time and dedication in the hands of a few choosen new characters (the academy at first) backing it up by "We do not want to favor old magician characters over others" and now tearing this credo down by giving out candy to some old mage characters anyway.

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 12:20 pm

Damien and Djironnyma have no magic skills though. They MUST learn from scratch, although they have runes, they have to practice. And that's the hard part. Magic skills rise very slow.

Several reasons. These were the only two characters who were "old" magicians (that means, they have been masters and teachers before) AND had matching attributes allowing them to cast the higher spells later (most of the other old masters had magic attributes around ten or even 8, ignoring the descriptions on the boards when recreating after the wipe !!! Things like : Willpower and Essence 4 (Both necessary for casting, see board topic), but str and dex 16...).
So it was kinda hard to find matching teachers. A few two were there, and got picked by the archmages that way. Most other real old mages (Dyluck or Shi Long for example) are inactive or did not even create characters. And i don't know about their attributes.

Don't forget one thing. The teachers put a lot of time in preparing magic academy lessons. Everyone of us will teach at least one course for novices and one for learned mages. That's a page of written text (in my case) for every lesson. Just have a look at the reports of the theoretical magic lessons hehe... and it will be at least 5 lessons for the novice course.

So... don't even think that we'd have less work than the students. And we will continue that work when the students are finished themselves.

Why do people always complain so much without even thinking a little bit ? Less teachers also mean less students able to learn.

Dyluck · Post by **Dyluck** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 12:45 pm

This is not true, as said elves are still teachers of the academy and, as you said, players trusted enough to not go around and share their knowledge with others, backslashing the academy which has tought them.

It's rather controversial to keep a feature taking up so much time and dedication in the hands of a few choosen new characters (the academy at first) backing it up by "We do not want to favor old magician characters over others" and now tearing this credo down by giving out candy to some old mage characters anyway.

Sorry but I don't see how any of your suggestions refutes my argument. More number of teachers still increases, marginally at the very least, the avenues and speed by which others can learn magic at the school. Furthermore, any other persons trying to learn magic and to be able to teach it someday right now normally has to be "of the academy" for some time anyways.

Also, I did not say that "trusted players won't share their knowledge". I suggested that they should be "knowledgable and responsible enough to make decisions on how to better the game with their advantages". This could mean sharing what they have to certain others, if there is valid reason to belive that doing so is beneficial to the game.

Favoring players arbitrarily based on the sole attribute of "having an old mage" would probably be ineffective, but favoring players based on that attribute AND certain attributes found in "knowledgable, useful, responsible" players believed to be able to better the game with their augments, would be a good strategy.

If you think about it, you haven't actually lost anything. Even if others weren't given advantages, you would still have to progress at the same speed that you do now. People just tend to get gripped by thoughts about "fairness". I sympathize with how you feel, but sometimes people just have to try and think outside of the box that tends to associate "fairness" automatically with "good". Think of how star players on a sports team usually get more playing time and freedom for creativity for the good of the team.

Drathe · Post by **Drathe** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:37 pm

When I applied my char to the academy I was turned down because my chars attributes were said to be to low for learning magic, yet my chars Willpower and Essence are both 8 or above?

‘We have checked your magical aura (Attributes), and it was not strong enough to be suitable for this school. ~ Master Tyrus’

I got no reply on the boards or via MSN as the player had requested to be contacted in another board thread. I stated that my char only wished to learn very basic things, after all he is no mage or ever aspiring to be a master at it. That quote above was all I got, when I asked what attributes were minimum to qualify for the academy I never got a response. Personally, I like the idea of how magic has been implemented. But from my experience of it, I think it is biased, longwinded and with no clear way to learn. What with rules for this and meeting at this time for that lesson with that person in this time zone.

Its good that the teachers put a lot of effort into the lessons, its good they show the willing and motivation we are lucky to have them, if you one for the chosen few it seems who get the chance to enjoy being let to learn in the first place.

Shandariel el Lysanthrai · Sat Jan 21, 2006 3:44 pm

When I applied my char to the academy I was turned down because my chars attributes were said to be to low for learning magic, yet my chars Willpower and Essence are both 8 or above?

and intelligence?

Arameh · Post by **Arameh** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:19 pm

Any remember my topic called"Magic affect on fighter" than that was about what Faladron is trying to explain, personally i argued around 15 posts are no one read or understood what i meant, so i aint gonna argue here but i completely agree with Faladron.And Damien,if you have "no" magical skill i dont want to see it when you have some because you now could kill my character with no problems im sure.

Damien · Post by **Damien** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 5:22 pm

Unless you get magic resistance, which you will, from monsters. They already work on the testserver.

And as i said before : Think of a fighter with no skill, but high attack attributes. You defend with no skill, and low defense attributes. And without armor. There you have the difference

There may even be things that help protecting from magic later on but hey- i'm telling too much.

Drathe is a char with all mind attributes at or below 10. One can of course delete and recreate characters, but it's always the question if the loss of skills and items equals what you can win !

Arameh · Post by **Arameh** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 6:50 pm

My essence is not that low...but if there are ways to learn magic resistance in the new clients and server then i suppose it will be alright.

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:06 pm

And we are sure you will find a way to powergame that skill very fast

Arameh · Post by **Arameh** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:08 pm

yes i will "train" that skill,if powergaming is training then everyone powergame.

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:10 pm

if you let yourself hit by magic thrown by monsters to increase your magic restistance yes it is powergaming. Read the rules again.

It is powergaming if you do something without roleplay reason and against your characters role just for increasing skills

Carrying out an action repeatedly (that does not fit your role) and for an extended time to raise your skill, is called Power gaming, and is forbidden. A worse case is when the player is doing something else to entertain him or herself meanwhile (e.g. watching tv). Examples are to train with other characters without a roleplay background or always hanging around spawn points.

and i think it won't fit to your chars role to let himself burned by magic just the become stronger against it.

it is the same like letting yourself hit by flys to increase dodge.

Dónal Mason · Post by **Dónal Mason** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:29 pm

How 'bout a character who really, really believes in the saying 'What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger'?

Arameh · Post by **Arameh** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:33 pm

Agree,how can we find a roleplay reason for getting magic resistance,the only 1 i see for my character is not to get blown away again by an archmage.

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:39 pm

I have the feeling that the whole game is for you guys just about "getting not killed and getting skills to kill others better"...are skills and how to train them best all you can think off? is the roleplay behind it and sane roleplay reason unimportant as long as you can get your skills?

Dónal Mason · Post by **Dónal Mason** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 7:57 pm

Oh for smile sake!

Galim, WHY are you so quick to scream powergamer? I seem to remember you as a fighter/mage/smith who complained he couldn't be great at all 3.

Faladron · Post by **Faladron** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:12 pm

If you want to feel no cold no more, you go meditate under a waterfall.

If something like magic would exsist and you'd want to feel it no more...

what would you do?

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:13 pm

Wrong, i never complained I couldn't be good at all three. please don't write lies.

To be honest just my smith skill was really good. the mage skills were below medium and the fight skills a bit above normal. and that after three years of playing.

You seem to like it to tell again lies about my former char. you take every chance to write something against me because you don't like me, hmm? pityfull.

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:13 pm

Arameh_ wrote:Agree,how can we find a roleplay reason for getting magic resistance,the only 1 i see for my character is not to get blown away again by an archmage.

the same reason for learning parry....

Go attack the Mage NPCs and leave them for last, so they beat you to shreds before.

Arameh · Post by **Arameh** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:13 pm

Im not sure 100% what faladron meant but i think he agree with us...

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:15 pm

Arameh, than go and powergame your magic resistance. But never forget what happened by the flies. It may happen again. And the next time even worse.

Dónal Mason · Post by **Dónal Mason** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:17 pm

Really, Galim?

I seemed to hear you complaining because you had set your magic stats to a pitiful level, and that Galim would be poor at magic. You were told that if you wanted to be a fighter, a mage and a smith, you would have to balance your stats VERY carefully. You complained. Sounds to me like you wanted to be a master of all, hm?

Fooser · Post by **Fooser** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:19 pm

Donal is just a powergamer, dont listen

omg banz0rr3d

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:19 pm

That is not true, donal. Again your are lying. I start to feel personal attacked by you. Stop it. Please show a proof for what you wrote, or just stop your lies.

I made my char from the beginning as a char with medium attributes. I knew that I won't be able to do everything. to be honest it was even an accident that i got magic. good old days were you learned runes while looking into a shelf of the libary

. after i once had the magic i made the best out of it. i could do enough to play the role of a priest. i never complained that my attributes are too low. of course I am talking of the pre-wipe illarion.

Arameh · Post by **Arameh** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:21 pm

Galim,what the heck you are talking about with your flies?If something happened tell me,cause the only things i see happening with flies are newbs coming with 10 on them in the city.And i think the powergaming rules are a bit harsh, i know no warrior characters that didnt go on a npc spawn point to train personally.

Jeremy Gems Willowbrook · Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:27 pm

These types of threads begin to depress me.
Thanks for the support Fal, it is appreciated though ultimately futile. This is the system which has been chosen and I doubt it will be changed. Personally I didnt expect to be included in the reintroduction of magic, though I had hoped my efforts might have yielded some recognition. But I consider myself to be relatively new still as a player in this game and therefore not high in the ranks of Illarion society. Therefore it was no surprise to be 'passed over'. Besides Jeremy, stat wise, is no high class mage. Pre-wipe he was designed as a thief, but fell into magic later. (If you dont believe this read 'gems in trollsbane' in the rpg board - if its still there!), Post wipe, despite the fact he was now best known as a mage, I tried to stay true to the original character concept and recreated the stats with only moderate tinkering. I guess I should have just thrown the original out and gone for the all out mage. Maybe then he would have been treated differently now. But I doubt it.
Anyway. Bottom line is Jeremy is now nothing special in anything but RP terms.
I also dont see the RP value in most of the lessons and due to RL pressures find it hard to get to most of them anyway. Learning from the notes is fine as a way to catch up with the lessons, but where is the RP in that?
#me sits in the library reading.
RP in the lessons is hard too. Most of the time all it does is disrupt the lessons. Yes your character can ask questions and take notes. But with several other players doing the same it soon becomes far too cluttered to keep up with the lesson. Everyone posting #me's to add their bit of rp just slows things down. So at the end the only real RP being done is by the teacher. By far the best way to get RP for teaching is through 1 to 1, or 1 to 2. Master and apprentice. Cant help but RP it then. Of course for that you need a lot more teachers. Anything the staff/gms/devs can come up with to improve on or speed up the system will no doubt be appreciated.
Things will get better in 6 to 12 months when players start being able to teach. If any of us last that long.
Anyway, in the meantime this is the system we are given. Like it or not. So can we STFU and just get on with it before I get so depressed I quit.

Damian PO Jeremy

Dónal Mason · Post by **Dónal Mason** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:27 pm

Yeah. I'm not. I'm talking POST wipe.

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Sat Jan 21, 2006 8:32 pm

about post wipe: The problem were not wrong set medium attributes. After the wipe Galims attributes were created for a future priest. For future priestmagic. They weren't that much medium anymore. I missed one attribute which would have been in the "plannings" of PRIESTMAGIC important. But those plans were made after I created my char after the wipe. so i asked if i could change the attributes since I haven't knew when creating my char that that attribute will play the mainrole in the planned system.

As you see it is something completly different that you said...so stop the lies now and search you something other to do than complaining and attacking me here.