Good Guys Vrs. Bad Guys.. The Uphill walk during a Landslide

Pendar · Post by **Pendar** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 8:21 pm

I think the issue of characters being scare of monster spawns is not so simple. Example demons,
If i were to see a lion in the street i would be rather cautious and if the lion had rabbies and was mad i would need to change my pants.
How ever if i had grown up in a African village and my father had hunted lions all his life. I would not find the lion as terrafying instead a danger i was equipped to handle.
Now I have a few characters one would see a demon and run, one would see a demon and watch people die. One would see a demon and try and save innocents and Pendar would slay the demon. Each have there own skills,past knowledge,skill and expierence.
Look back to all the great warrior cultures from samuri to kelt and one see's a pattern death is not to be feared,battle is an honor and cowardice a true failing.
Perhaps many warriors see it in this light?
There are often more to these "heros" than one may believe I think back to John Inrenicus or Arsiteaus two superbly played characters whom I never saw show a moments fear. That certainly did not make them perfect or with out weakness.

We as players need to occasionally climb down off our soap boxes and realise that some players.
.Play this game as an amazeingly intellectual exercise worthy of a phsycology thesis.
.Play this as there own amateur drama stage with all the cliched plot,romance and heroics of a b grade movie.
.Play this as they prefer long swords to light sabres
I am sure there are many more reasons those are three i am familar with and have indulge to different degress in the past.
Yes quest rp is always questionable and indeed some people battle to give there characters a depth that impresses us. How ever many do for me and i chose to take good with bad and just enjoy the expierence.
Brian

Berengar · Post by **Berengar** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:13 pm

Dravish (burning and with his kick-ass bow) enters the shop and demands to see Salathe.
Several other people just stay there and talk to him as if he was some petty thug who can't harm them anyway

*cough* Emilio *cough*

(Dravish's piercing, burning eyes linger on the man in front of him.
"Hello, I m Emilio, who are you? Want a beer?" ... and so on

)

Well, I actually do agree that we have too many fearless (wannabe)heros running around, but on the other hand you never know how the carachter is supposed to be. I m playing mine now for almost 5 years (about 1 and a half year break in between). He is a "kind-of-occasionally-hero" and it might look boring and like bad rp but... he hardly fears anything... apart from children, especially small and crying ones, women and he would definately be scared to death if he had to make a speech

Faladron · Post by **Faladron** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 10:21 pm

The point is, I hardly understand why everyone's a fearless warrior and I'm pretty sure most people themselves don't aswell.
Allthough if they all can backup their brave behaviour like you did, Pendar, I want my characters to get that sort of training aswell (

)because seriously:

I feel strange, somewhat stupid, being the only player who plays chars actually running from danger or showing fear when danger's around.

We could all claim that we don't have fear from nothing, laugh at every try of GM's to spice things up making a "big ugly fiend attacks town" kind of quest, which is "solved" in less than 5 minutes of a deadly team of fearless warriors.

There's so much more to roleplay than "#me draws his weapon and advances towards the huge beast that might kill him in the blink of an eye", and you can't tell me that all the farmers, tailors, peasants and other characters running around who definately didn't have a "try to accept that you might be killed every moment" training in their past, still all behave like brave warriors without any fear whenever something big, red and horned shows up.

Sylathen · Post by **Sylathen** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:10 pm

Syla is scared crapless of Demons ever since he got mauled, But Dravish is a different story, since he hates dravish for Killing Arynne(Who he was avenging the cousin(sister?) of) So he doesn't fear dravish to the point of immoblization, But you have to understand, if he had to attack a demon to save the life of a Knight or Pendar mind you, He Would, but he would still be scared and that would affect his fight.

Thalodos Artemetus · Post by **Thalodos Artemetus** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:12 pm

I personally think demons are too weak. I mean if i was to play a demon, bish-bash-bosh everyone would be dead with not a chance.

edit: @pendar: not enough

Pendar · Post by **Pendar** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:15 pm

Hopefully in time the client will offer more variety when you die. If dieing meant you had to quest back to the game world or would be gone for 10-15 minutes I think more people would be scared of things that could kill them.
It is also about skills Pendar has been involved in the slaying of numerous demons now. In the early days of the game I use to run like hell

. I recall hiding with some people in greenbriar on my third night in game.
Generally speaking the fearless people who stand out are not fleshed out characters who I find it hard to relate to as "characters" real 3d characters.
I try and give my characters enough depth and animation that they are some what real or at least draw one to be emmersed in them. This I propably have limited sucess with.
Berengar is again a great example, the character fears nothing in battle but spend some time rping with him and there is a great depth. He comes over as real, a master swords man who has actually sacrificed a lot for that skill.
It is not really about a singular issue or "fear" it is about a well fleshed out character who is not perfect will be endearing where as a character who losely holds character and seems oblviouse to emotion will also appear a strange facade.
Thats just me though
Brian

@thalos demons are pretty strong last one we fought made many clouds lol

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:17 pm

The "demons" have to do their part to get fear. A lich walking in town talking, or just threatenning isn't half as scary as one which fires at anything that moves...

Every now and then Dravish has to let loose a massacre or something, and kill a few people when he gets angry.

Pendar · Post by **Pendar** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:21 pm

Then people will moan dravish is a PKER and it so unfair we cant beat him. I have seen this before its to weak we moan its to strong we moan.
Dravish killed pendar in 2 hits pendar is scared as hell of dravish. Alas running away is not an option when he comes into town

@below comment.
Wouldnt know i fear if im not on pendar i run like hell lool

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Mon Sep 26, 2005 11:22 pm

Just one thing.. last time Dravish pushed me, and i hit him back; and he retaliated, bringing my health down to a very low level [almost dead].

I RPED falling with a huge scratch mark, and then set on a rock to try and revive.

Amount of People who ran > 0
Amount of People who screamed in terror > 0
Oh and Everyone was so calm when Dravish crossed into town and out the other side...

Kamik Windslasher ~ · Post by **Kamik Windslasher ~** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 1:59 am

What a waste of time...
This kind of thread always appears and leads to nothing.

And I insist. Don't create a character thinking: "Aah, this one will be a villain, he will like this and hate that..."
Simply create a character, his story and background, and play his role. If his actions will lead him into villany, well, you're playing your character the way you thought him to be.
If you create a character with the "villain" concept already in mind, threads like this one is the result.

One thing that I always notice in these villain concepted characters is that they tend to want to be the fear of a nation in one day. Heroes don't appear in one day, and so will not villains.

And I do think we have some good "villains" IG, yes. It's just that they are too timid to show themselves, that's all.

Cliu Beothach · Post by **Cliu Beothach** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:04 am

Kamik Windslasher ~ wrote:What a waste of time...
This kind of thread always appears and leads to nothing.

And I insist. Don't create a character thinking: "Aah, this one will be a villain, he will like this and hate that..."
Simply create a character, his story and background, and play his role. If his actions will lead him into villany, well, you're playing your character the way you thought him to be.
If you create a character with the "villain" concept already in mind, threads like this one is the result.

One thing that I always notice in these villain concepted characters is that they tend to want to be the fear of a nation in one day. Heroes don't appear in one day, and so will not villains.

And I do think we have some good "villains" IG, yes. It's just that they are too timid to show themselves, that's all.

"Mapping out" your character's future does not promote bad roleplay or failure. It can work both ways.

Ziel Oden · Post by **Ziel Oden** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 2:07 am

Yes Kamik. Do not think everyone Roleplays the same. I never ever think up a role when my characters are made - just age basicly. And I always get wierd ass Ideas for mine. For instance, one of my characters is insane in a wierd way. He convinced himself into being something he isnt.. That is all im saying for now.

Gabon Corad · Post by **Gabon Corad** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:04 am

the only thing i have to say is HOW THE HELL DID EVERYONE FIND THE SHADOW HORDE!!! they all Rp that they talked to an orc when the only orcs that go into town at Ko and Alk who killed and were banned, when i posted i put in ooc notes that none should post or know because it was Rped the orc cave not many humans elves lizards dwarves or haflings i am sure would go there because ITS THE FREEKIN ORC CAVE. its goes, i think, with the topic of heros because it had not been told anywhere or to anyone accept the orcs who joined. Gabon has already told the public that he is inded the chief, and i really would of minded as much if my name wasnt mintentioned as the chief, example: "i have been hearing rumors of the orcs uniting" but as soon as my name was mintioned then my whole cover was blown and i might as well start killing because everyone know i lead Ko in battle and such. This is all a few things i had to get off my chest but in some ways more than other i do believe there are to many heros in the game and there does need to be more active crimes because for people like me who have football 5 days a week and school on top of that its hard to keep up with IG actions and the only form of communication is these boards.

all i am asking for is more action thats not Gm controlled maby Gm helped but not controled where the good side my not alway win or outnumber the villians.

BTW if any of you have been deeply struck by my post feel free to make an orc that can join my clan, always looking for new blood

Gabon

Sylathen · Post by **Sylathen** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 3:49 am

I was told by about 15-20 people Gabon

i don't remember who. but you forget how much information Syla pulls in, this again is something people don't know

Pocal · Post by **Pocal** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 4:36 am

I can say, I didn;t do it, cuz my orc has yet to find TB.

Jacob · Post by **Jacob** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:26 am

Something you must learn po Gabon, the illarion community does not keep secrets nor does it play fair. I have no doubt in my mind that your guild would have been better off by making a seperate forum for it, where not everyone in the illarion community can read through it.

Kamik Windslasher ~ · Post by **Kamik Windslasher ~** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:21 am

Cliu Beothach wrote:
Kamik Windslasher ~ wrote:What a waste of time...
This kind of thread always appears and leads to nothing.

And I insist. Don't create a character thinking: "Aah, this one will be a villain, he will like this and hate that..."
Simply create a character, his story and background, and play his role. If his actions will lead him into villany, well, you're playing your character the way you thought him to be.
If you create a character with the "villain" concept already in mind, threads like this one is the result.

One thing that I always notice in these villain concepted characters is that they tend to want to be the fear of a nation in one day. Heroes don't appear in one day, and so will not villains.

And I do think we have some good "villains" IG, yes. It's just that they are too timid to show themselves, that's all.
"Mapping out" your character's future does not promote bad roleplay or failure. It can work both ways.

Well, I never said that.
But most will agree that "mapping out" a future for your character in a world where MANY characters interact is kind of selfish. Simply because every interaction will change this future, somehow. And if you insist on it, it's kind of discarding the rp of others and so... why not play a single player game, then?
I'd say: follow the flow. Thinking how a character will be means nothing if he doesn't have a story to shape him that way. That is what I think. I am not implying a rule or stating everyone should do this way. But I have to add that it always worked for me. Very well, actually.

Kamik Windslasher ~ · Post by **Kamik Windslasher ~** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:35 am

Ziel Oden wrote:Yes Kamik. Do not think everyone Roleplays the same. I never ever think up a role when my characters are made - just age basicly. And I always get wierd ass Ideas for mine. For instance, one of my characters is insane in a wierd way. He convinced himself into being something he isnt.. That is all im saying for now.

I don't think that. Be sure of this.

And yes... you only think of the age of your character? Heh. Perhaps, this explains everything, mate.
I will tell you what, Ziel: every character you make is quite good at the start, and then, suddenly, you seem to feel an angst for attention and change him drastically (a character with a background would never change this fast), usually you turn them crazy, and then he dies and no one else remembers him after that.
But for villany... Ko, for example, became quite popular after that golem thing. I bet every concerned citizen of Troll's Bane would be speaking of that huge walking stone. How do you suppose that, people who can fight, would allow Ko's safety when he is a menace? In real life, I'd try as I could to keep a dangerous person away from dear people to me. And in a world where swords and magic are used, how do you think this would be done?
Anyway... I am not the one here complaining about villains vs. heroes.

Anarchist · Post by **Anarchist** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:43 am

Ok I actually learned alot from this thread and got some great ideas.
I love playing villians and i'll be the first to admite at times I dont do it so well and then I also have my moments where I do great which I think is the reason there is such a split decision on Cyrus. Anyhow I'd just like to point a few things out from my experiance and comment on some things said. So here goes.
First up some points
1. As kamik said (i think sorry if i got it wrong) Villains arn't made overnight People need to put time and effort into it to make it work.
2. A big mistake I made and prehaps others is trying too hard to be known which for a villain isn't that good a thing
3. You need to know when to quit. Again i made this mistake and learned from it (most of the time). Villain's have feelings to and fear is one of them so when you are out numbered, Run! and dont keep coming back again and again just to stir things up it dosn't work.
4. Things don't always go the way you want as a villain but play with it, go with the flow dont do something erradic to play a villain you need to be flexable.
5. Take Brians advice (PO pendar for those of you who live in a whole =P) have multiple charecters because you will be banned from town
6. Try things that don't result in clouds. Some of my most memorable fights and conflicts were completly Rp'd you dont always have to make someone a cloud to get the things you want But if you do this be prepared to give and take if you do do this. most villains arn't superhuman and cant dodge everything that comes there way same goes for hero's or anyone else in this situation (hehe also not one of my strong points at times but hey we all make mistakes =D )

Also in reply to the comment about Villains needing a background. The problem with that is you assume they dont when truth is many do I belive. Take Anither for instance (another of my not so well played villans) He had an amazingly complex background that would take atleast an hour to fully discuss but only a few people actually knew anything of it. Backgrounds arn't something that are genrally discussed with many other charecters the same goes with motives.
So I hope to see some great villains and i think people should be afraid to try it. and yes the occasional really bad Villan pops up (rp wise) but people are to quick to flame peopl over it rather than help them learn from there mistakes so maybe if we as a community take a slightly more laid back approach to villain ooc we might see a few more pop up.

Also anyone interested in creating a large orc clan that will situate itself outside of trollsbane and be evil oriantated but not so that they want to massicare anything that moves and isn't green. I'd like large number because we will be banned if we go through with it so we need ppl to rp with outside TB.
Thats all from me.[/quote]

Llama · Post by **Llama** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:24 pm

Gabon Corad wrote:the only thing i have to say is HOW THE HELL DID EVERYONE FIND THE SHADOW HORDE!!!

My fault... i have logs... here they are:

Selisidour: and when you do something bad, you sshould ssay you are sorry

Someone (2115832420): tell that my chiefy

Selisidour looks at the orc.

Selisidour: who would be?

Someone (151662999) frowns and mutters something to the rat on his shoulder.

Someone (2115832420): Gabon

Selisidour: Gabon a chiefy?

Selisidour: I thought he wass a Knight

Someone (2115832420) looks to the rat.

Selisidour: ...of Kallahorn

Someone (2115832420): Yummys

Someone (2115832420): Gabon Corad?

Selisidour: that iss alsso impolite... you don't eat other people'ss pets

Someone (2115832420): Knight?

Selisidour: yess Corad

Selisidour: he was the 5th Knight if i remember correctly

Someone (2115832420) grunts and laughs.

Selisidour: ..now he iss cheify.. and acheivment

Step one

Step 2:

Selisidour: alkuurg, are you part of that orc group.. whats its name again.. the one gabon isss leader of?

Someone (49528597) pushes out of his chair.

Someone (1600101135): Shadowhorde

Selisidour turns back to his sewing.

See all valid RPed

Kamik Windslasher ~ · Post by **Kamik Windslasher ~** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:28 pm

See? You learn fast, mate.

Ziel Oden · Post by **Ziel Oden** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:30 pm

@Hadrian - Pwned.

Just to clear things up - Ko has been the silent orc

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 6:45 pm

Thats the problem with orcs and a secret organization, orcs are idiots and easy to trick

Cain Freemont · Post by **Cain Freemont** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 8:49 pm

Kamik Windslasher ~ wrote:
Cliu Beothach wrote:
Kamik Windslasher ~ wrote:What a waste of time...
This kind of thread always appears and leads to nothing.

And I insist. Don't create a character thinking: "Aah, this one will be a villain, he will like this and hate that..."
Simply create a character, his story and background, and play his role. If his actions will lead him into villany, well, you're playing your character the way you thought him to be.
If you create a character with the "villain" concept already in mind, threads like this one is the result.

One thing that I always notice in these villain concepted characters is that they tend to want to be the fear of a nation in one day. Heroes don't appear in one day, and so will not villains.

And I do think we have some good "villains" IG, yes. It's just that they are too timid to show themselves, that's all.
"Mapping out" your character's future does not promote bad roleplay or failure. It can work both ways.

Well, I never said that.
But most will agree that "mapping out" a future for your character in a world where MANY characters interact is kind of selfish. Simply because every interaction will change this future, somehow. And if you insist on it, it's kind of discarding the rp of others and so... why not play a single player game, then?
I'd say: follow the flow. Thinking how a character will be means nothing if he doesn't have a story to shape him that way. That is what I think. I am not implying a rule or stating everyone should do this way. But I have to add that it always worked for me. Very well, actually.

This topic is about good guys and bad guys, right? So let's turn your argument into something about that:

I think its a little puritanical of you to say that mapping out your character is selfish. In the current course of this game, the way the roleplays are going, our characters (if they are truly blank slates) will all end up heroes fighting the GMs. This is very apparent due to the severe amount of heroes and complete lack of villains. If someone were to make a villain, they would need to determine at least a minor future to work towards, otherwise their characters would end up lost in the sea of heroes. Characters need something to work towards, otherwise you end up with too massive a gray area (which is a good thing, except we have too much 'light grey' and not enough 'dark grey').

Ziel Oden · Post by **Ziel Oden** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:19 pm

PO Alkuurg and I have been devolping our characters to the point where they are villians, yet well liked in some ways. Alkuurg is nice to certain people, and Ko is a idiot easily tricking into doing people's dirty work.

And the fact is, villians cant say: "They hate everyone" becuase then they have EVERYONE to fight. Therefor, a struggle to even last a week with that character. Ko and Alkuurg are starting to get very devolped. With very presiece dislikes and Enemys.

It is good to start out as a "good" person, gain strength, and then make him corrupted into hating a certain selection of people, and bent on destroying them if it cost them everything. THAT is a real life villian.

Cain Freemont · Post by **Cain Freemont** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:26 pm

I have to disagree with that last part, Ziel. While this is a viable solution, the way you worded it sounds like a very out-of-character change. That isn't something one should do when a character is already involved in a community. Rather, it should be done as little as possible (as it can't always be avoided). I made a character that I intend to be a villain a couple days ago, but I can guarantee you that not everyone can tell. There are few "tells" that indicate that he will become a villain of any sort, and I'm sure the only person who would have any idea of this so far is Pendar.

Ziel Oden · Post by **Ziel Oden** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:40 pm

Hmm. Your right - I did word it wrong.

I'm just saying, people comming around saying everyone sux0r boots the first day of creation is proboly the shittiest approach to making a 'bad-guy'.

Thalodos Artemetus · Post by **Thalodos Artemetus** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 10:45 pm

Another trouble i spotted is that the good guys aren't exactly 'good' at all. Not because this is intentional but..well i don't know why.

Here is a classic line of events that occur in the game frequently.

Bad guywalks up to 'respected citizen' and stabs him three times

Respected citizen:argh..!

Siriani prestess:Time to die!

Loving elfess swings and takes off 'bad guy's' head without batting an eyelid.

Nine year old child, who loves to love: ha ha nice one' loving elfess.'

Nine year old child who loves to love proceeds to decapitate 'bad guys' limbs.

Cute fluffy kitten: Oooh looks like fun, let me join.

Cute fluffy kitten draws her dagger and proceeds to help 'Nine year old child who loves to love' decapitate 'bad guy'.

Kindly preist: oh don't leave me out of the action..!

..you get the picture..

Galim · Post by **Galim** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:05 pm

You are overdrawing it <_<

Thalodos Artemetus · Post by **Thalodos Artemetus** » Tue Sep 27, 2005 11:07 pm

Getting across the point Gal.