"Restart" Choice: Not As Simple As First Glance?

[Dyluck]

Since there seems to be mostly analysis on the "Contintuation" instance, I thought maybe we should take a closer look at the "Restart" instance, although I was reluctant to start yet another thread. Although I'm for Continuation, there are some issues with Restart that I'm wondering about.

For all the people who want to start all over from scratch, there's one thing I don't understand, especially for those who say that continuation will leave bigger plotholes than restart, which seems to me like the exact opposite.

Just how exactly do you plan on determining and reacting to the society and structures of the new map to which, as indicated by GM, you will not be the first settlers of? Or will you plan on just simply ignoring the first settlers and going for land grab? In either case, it seems to me like there will be problems the likes of:

Person A: Here ye! I hereby claim this library as my own!

Person B: What? Lord Boobleear has owned this place for years!

Person C: Are you crazy? Sir Lagalot has lived here for decades!

Person D: Nonsense! The Neo-Liberal Guild has defeat the previous owners and took this place!

Person E: Nono! <insert guild/person> owns this place!

How are you going to talk about your surrounding environment when you have no idea what people, culture, laws, beliefs, are present in this new settlement which you are to now function in?

Or is a GM or some other people going to simply going to determine all this background information of the new society for you? If so, then aren't you just bringing your new characters into a pre-made society like you would be without everyone starting from scratch?

I think that perhaps many of us may have sorely underestimated the difficulty of growing Illarion into an environment that can support the needs of roleplayers the likes of which this community supposedly is. I think starting over with this community base may be more difficult than when the game started from the very beginning.

The world inside the game didn't become what it is now by being roleplayed from the beginning all the way into it, which you would all need to do now. This game started out as some project for a couple of university students who's numbers were probably less than 10. That's a lot easier to make decisions than 100 or whatever you have now. Then the game grew through a stage before it had any strict roleplaying rules and slowly evolved it's way into a game with community dynamics and a background society which could support a logically functioning rolepalying majority.

What I'm trying to say, is that the game survived its early not-so-roleplay-compatible-society years because it was being sustained by a populace that did not feed on roleplay alone or have high roleplaying needs. If you restart, I think that the new world might not be able to meet your high roleplaying needs as there may be more not-so-roleplay-compatible-society problems than you might have have considered, so I'm just wondering if you're really ready to deal with them and whether it'll be worth the hassle.

[Ezor Edwickton]

I think it would simple. The building that do exist at the beginning can either be publicly owned, or owned by an npc, depending on what the building is. No one will really own anything personally. Laws, culture and beliefs will all eventually develop over time naturally, just like any real community. There will be no real history, untill time passes on and history is made.

[Dyluck]

Although I'm not that much against it at the present time, that sounds to me like the first settlement is still being ignored to a high degree, even though I may have overrated the importance of its details. However, it still seems to me that at some point in time, there will be discrepencies in the the background information of the new world and society, which would be problematic for a community accustomed to roleplaying in functional background dynamics in my opinion.

And in retrospect, perhaps this topic was not as deserving of its own thread as I first thought, so I would not be offended if it were deemed better moved to an existing "wipe" thread to lessen confusion of the many already existing threads.

[Gwynnether]

I doubt that will happen this way, Ezor. But please do tell the Grey Rose that their castle will be owned by a NPC, hehe.


And I guess this here:

http://217.160.140.46/community/forums/ ... hp?t=13683

would unnecessary too then.


Jen

[Moirear Sian]

From what I understand, it's not really in discussion anyway about doing anything else than letting people continue "doing their thing" (from the side of the GMs/staff). I for my part have so far assumed the opposition in these ongoing debates because as much as I've appreciated the setting and its characters and all that entails, it can also be too "railroaded" sometimes because of this year-long background to it (of which, I hope you understand, some others may feel excluded from and willing to try out something new with the same very people), and I was very curious as to why a good majority simply refuses to bury the past, in spite of a minority that simply says little more than: "You can sit in a room with four people, and a single die, one sheet of paper and a single pencil, and the lack of any other props will not stop you from roleplaying together"—or worded differently: "you can begin new tales from zero, this will not change your ability nor enjoyment of roleplaying itself".

Nothing lasts forever. The earlier one can accept that, the easier it is to let go...

I don't think that anybody would be "losing their stories"—which has been repeated many times, you will not be—just think of how it lives on in your hearts, or works of art like Dyluck's Olskool RPG of Illarion. I say this from the point of view of someone who has been an avid RPer and GM for RPGs (Pen&Paper, mostly) for many years, and will probably be one for still more years to come. To me, roleplaying is just about hooking up with some people over a slew of collectively developed fiction, and simply put just having some fun, and a good time together.

I am convinced that not even a wipe could "wipe out" something like that if a community is willing to prevail together in spite of technical hocus-pocus and finding a painstaking new beginning together. Call me naive if you like, but I do think this community would have the stuff that it takes to start over from scratch.

[Dyluck]

Although not exactly the topic, I agree to the point of "you can begin new tales from zero, this will not change your ability nor enjoyment of roleplaying itself". However, I think the different reasons (or supposed reasons) for why we enjoy this game is what seperates the views of this community. As I have said in another thread, for me, the enjoyment of playing this game, nay: being in this community, is more than simply "roleplaying" itself. For me, the joy comes from also knowing that what I do may become a part of history for Illarion, and creating the potential for myself and future player generations to continue to build upon that history which I have taken part in creating. I feel pride in being a part of this and for my own accomplishments as well.

I believe that this is true for many others too, only some may not realize it because popular culture around here has almost brainwashed everyone into using the word "roleplaying" as if it were synonymous with all that is good and sacred, and that enjoying this game for any other reasons than the single act called "roleplaying", is sacreligous. Well this may be a game that prides and sells itself as game of roleplaying, but I don't think that means the single act or moment of "roleplaying" is all that matters to this game or its players. There's more to why people enjoy being in this game and this community, and I believe that the participation and witnessing of a continued legacy that we have taken part in, which will be continued to be built upon story after story, is why many people continue to enjoy being a part of this community as long as they do.

Just as visuals are part of the reason we come here rather than just a pen/paper game for roleplaying, I believe that what I've said is just as important of a reason why many of us are here, even though they may not have realized it themselves.

[Moirear Sian]

I hate to break it to you like this, but I definitely do not come here for the visuals, no offense to you nor the people responsible for the graphics (engine). (To quote someone who could have been a potential player and took a look at the graphics: "Did they draw this game in MS paint?"—It hurts, but face it, the comment sounds honest to me.)

What I don't agree with is the general attitude to maintain a (pardon my opinion please, it's biased by reading most of it only from the Chronicles which are only a very rough recollection of perhaps many enjoyable hourse you've spent playing the game) background that is in a literary sense, rather weak in my book. It starts off horribly in the oldest days with tales revolving around recurring names like "Darkwalker" and "Fluffy the Sheep", which I find downright shameful for a game that boasts such serious roleplaying as it does now these days (and definitely does not justify all the snobs roaming about on the forums telling others how they are better roleplayers than others).

I keep returning occasionally to Illarion not for feeling special (you'll have to admit that what you wrote sounds a little nerdy, no?) but for the occasionally awesome fun I've had in interaction with other players in the game, character-to-character—just to name one of many examples: in-game politics. I don't know many MMORPGs where the RP has such an entertaining flavor with in-game politics—and I am fully aware that burying the preceding history would mean burying this special part of the roleplaying I enjoy so much about Illarion, and am virtually shoveling dirt onto with my words. I mean no disrespect, but I assume someone has to mime the Advocatus Diaboli today.

However, I don't see why this game could go through such development again, and, one day, perhaps distant from now or not, return to the level it is now in such matters. I'm sure there are tons of old players that would love to come to relive the wonderful experience you've made in helping build this community (in and as well as out of the actual game), as well as many new players who could make the experience of having to make such an experience as well by going with the "ground zero scenario", as I've began to enjoy calling it.

So I ask you older players, is that asking so much of you to step down once and make way for a new future, a new story, and perhaps new, and, who knows—even greater potential?

Stepping ahead a bit, I'd just like to state my thoughts of how I see Illarion right now: it was like a little stepchild you and many others have taken care of—it has grown alot, and now it's time to let the child go and live on its own like an adult. Hell, it's way past the time that it could have made its driver's license.

[martin]

"Did they draw this game in MS paint?"—It hurts, but face it, the comment sounds honest to me.)

In fact, the graphics are (the most part of them) bad.
That has several reasons, but the most important of them is:
we never had a good graphical artist. (And hey, it's me who is saying that -- most graphics were made by me ).
So, we give our best to converge to at least accaptable graphics, but it will be a long way.

Martin

[Mimblethorp]

I happen to think the RP challenge here would be fascinating starting from scratch. I mean, let's take the facts that IRL would be self-evident here.

1. If all players are new to the continent (no history yet, right) then the previous inhabitants of the continent were all decimated (could take the Lich war idea from the other thread and the sacrifice is our lives instead of just souls).

2. There HAD to be previous occupants or else there would be no buildings

3. The gods don't simply cease to exist just because the inhabitants do, in fact, there may be more do to the extremely heroic sacrifices made in the final battle.

4. As any archeologist will tell you, ancient civilizations leave behind remnants of their culture: records, art, daily items, etc... That could be discovered (a way to use appropriate OOC knowledge of the previous society). In this way, if the player community so deems, the laws could be brought back in their same form.

5. If GMs are indeed going to allow land to be purchased then we may start forward a little with it being claimed but there is still a whole lot of other things to be determined.

A sort of post-appocolyptic era of the game could actually be alot of fun for a season. Then true leaders could arise and who knows? Just because someone purchased land before the war and deeded it to the new comers doesn't mean they can keep ahold of it. After all the Skulls have tried taking over TrollsBane and succeeded for a while.

While I don't claim to KNOW what is best for everyone. I just claim that it isn't such an impossible situation and could well be enjoyed.

Of course, I'm a big supporter of Chaos so maybe you'd have to be crazy to listen to me.

Mimblethorpe

[Bloodhearte]

We are talking about a game...right? The drama associated with this thread is a little over the top IMO.

It's easy. Just start from scratch, with everything. No evidence of the past to be left. Big deal.

[Moirear Sian]

Yyyeah! Cheers for Bloodhearte!

Dagnabbit... and I was almost about to begin feeling a bit awkward.

[Galim]

I wont give up the past my character had on this isle. I wont simply let him forget everything he experienced on the isle.

Do you like you want. play the same character with lost memorys of all he experienced, but don't await me to do the same

[Ezor Edwickton]

2. There HAD to be previous occupants or else there would be no buildings

Whatever few npc's start off could have been sent as workers to start a settlement for anyone else who comes to settle.

4. As any archeologist will tell you, ancient civilizations leave behind remnants of their culture: records, art, daily items, etc... That could be discovered (a way to use appropriate OOC knowledge of the previous society). In this way, if the player community so deems, the laws could be brought back in their same form.

It is an island so it is possible that we are the first to ever tred the ground there. But have ancient ruins of a post civilization is a good idea.

I doubt that will happen this way, Ezor. But please do tell the Grey Rose that their castle will be owned by a NPC, hehe.

I think this was said sarcastically, right? But being that there would be no Grey Rose, if we started clean, the couldn't have a problem with it. And if guilds don't like that they have been eradicated, they can just as easily start up again, with the same players (meaning rl people) they had before. Or just start a new one.

[Galim]

Thats a dumb idea. How do you explain existing towns and castles? how do you explain silverbrand? Oh, everyone came to isle and found whole empty towns and all, just ready to move in?

this way soon the players who prefer training instead of roleplaying will claim soon everything to be theirs, because they can defend their claims with weaponpower and because there are no roleplaybackgrounds who could say something else.

yes, would be fun . sounds like a nice punishment for the players who do rp and dont like it to stand for hours infront of monsters <_<

[Kaledon Mordaine]

You think very little of the other players, don't you? Aside from that, however, how would having roleplay backgrounds stop someone who just wants to use force to take over? With a Char Wipe, they could still do that. If a person wants to do something like that, I doubt a background is going to stop them. It just seems like, to me, that your argument doesn't make much sense.

Oh, and about the towns, what would be so bad about the towns being empty? The natives may have died, or something like that. It would even open up possibilities, since whatever drove them out or whatever might come back.

[Moirear Sian]

Do you like you want. play the same character with lost memorys of all he experienced, but don't await me to do the same

That's the one thing I hope nobody does if other people are just continuing their characters after the wipe. I'm not worried at all: fresh start, new character, new luck.

[Ezor Edwickton]

Aside from that, however, how would having roleplay backgrounds stop someone who just wants to use force to take over? With a Char Wipe, they could still do that. If a person wants to do something like that, I doubt a background is going to stop them.

What stops them now? One person is not going to have enough strenght over the many to take over something. So what if a group decides they are going to then, you'll probably ask. Well this is a real possiblity, and is very realistic to what could really happen in a situation like this. But i still feel that the majority will always win.

[Kaledon Mordaine]

Not sure if you get what I was saying. I was disagreeing with what Galim was saying, about how Powerplayers would take over, and rule over everything simply because the history changed. I didn't mean to imply that they would Succeed. I was just pointing out that anyone who wanted to would do that either way.

[Domitrio]

@Galim: Forgive me.. but didn't you say earlier that you would rather play a new character than a confuzzled Galim? Galim won't be himself if he can't raise a hammer or chant his spells, as I've heard it put. Skills don't make the person, agreed, you can RP through all of it. But... I dont' see why some people, who number probably more than the "Ground Zero" advocates, can't just go with the Clean Slate.... I mean... the server is being wiped, why not your CharList?

[Moirear Sian]

Not sure if you get what I was saying. I was disagreeing with what Galim was saying, about how Powerplayers would take over, and rule over everything simply because the history changed. I didn't mean to imply that they would Succeed. I was just pointing out that anyone who wanted to would do that either way.

I agree, and would like to add that a skill rating does not equalize for integrity in social circles and the numbers of allies a character might have—at least not necessarily. Bottom line, mass will most likely prevail over class in the given case, at least in the early beginnings after the wipe. That's just my guess for now.

[Domitrio]

Anyone who could form a good militia within the first few weeks could very well take over Troll's Bane. And since there seems to be little intervention I think this first month or so will be very chaotic. Ceigan is going to have a field day!

[Bloodhearte]

Thats a dumb idea. How do you explain existing towns and castles? how do you explain silverbrand? Oh, everyone came to isle and found whole empty towns and all, just ready to move in?

this way soon the players who prefer training instead of roleplaying will claim soon everything to be theirs, because they can defend their claims with weaponpower and because there are no roleplaybackgrounds who could say something else.

yes, would be fun . sounds like a nice punishment for the players who do rp and dont like it to stand for hours infront of monsters <_<

It isn't a stupid idea. As I mentioned in some other thread, not every occurence is deserving of a reasonable explanation. I also mentioned in the very same post there was, in actual history, an American colony discovered with infrastructure...but notbody figured out what happened to the original inhabitants. They disappeared mysteriously.

And if anything, it punishes the powergamers (whatever those are), not the tried and true RP'ers. They lose all of their hours upon hours of skill building or "standing around monsters" as you so eloquently put it.

Seriously people. It's a game. Let your characters go, and let us start something fresh, new, and hip...like the transition from Coke to Pepsi.

[Moathia]

Unlike Coke however, Pepsi blows. Also I don't want to let go of Moathia, I don't like it when I just have to drop a storyline in the middle and leave it unfinished.

[Domitrio]

Kudo's to BloodHearte! Though pepsi does... blow. I think this is just what it sounded like. a RESET to day one. If you can't lose the personality of your character, make another with similar traits... I love Domi, but I don't want to continue his storyline if there are going to be horrible plot holes, like.. the Skulls not existing, considering at one point he was a member (Yeah.. a human.. member of the Skulls) That actually lead in some small way to him getting close to Michelia, which also is a big part of his history... It just wouldn't work.

I say, onward to bigger and better things.

[Moirear Sian]

Unlike Coke however, Pepsi blows. Also I don't want to let go of Moathia, I don't like it when I just have to drop a storyline in the middle and leave it unfinished.

Can't blame other people for playing static characters.

[Bloodhearte]

I love Pepsi. Diet Coke ruined it for the Cokers.

Why not just drop your characters? I have as much to lose as you fellas, I have several characters, some with rare items and a few with pretty high skills. But hey, F 'em, let's start over.

Don't become slaves to your fictional pieces of work...if you were creative enough to create these prized characters in the first place, surely you're creative enough to make new characters and equip them with cooler or at least different story lines?

[Moathia]

I'd openly accept a skill and item wipe. I don't care about them, I can get it back over the next two years. But it's the great storylines I'm currently playing with a number of my character that I don't want to lose.

[Bloodhearte]

Then don't lose them if they're that good...if you're really attached to the story, just rename those involved and maybe alter it a bit for creativity's sake.

[Moathia]

That wouldn't work because it's connected with things from the chars past on the island. I can't just go to every player involved and say, lets all make new character who are all identicle to our other chars, and have the exact same past as our current characters and on an identicle island, but we suddenly left to come to this one with no abilities.

[Bloodhearte]

No no, I was advocating against using identical stories. That's why I said shift 'em around a bit. But really, are the stories really worth keeping and continuing at all rather than making new ones?

I can't remember the last time I looked in the RPG boards. It's filled with stories of characters that I really don't care for, and personal struggles, and all that stuff. I mean, it's cluttered. Surely, there are many other players who think that the stories aren't worth it?