Beschwerde GM-Spieler/Complaiment GM-Player (Englisch added)

[falco1029]

I haven't pmd damien i dont think, I usually bug estralis

[Moirear Sian]

Foreword: This is destructive criticism. I'm doing it because you wimps obviously are lacking the advocatus diaboli lately. So here goes.

I was thinking, why must always the players complain about the gm’s? Today I will make it different. This should be as a constructive criticism.

Duh.

Why must the players complain about the GMs? Because they're obviously still making grave and frustrating mistakes, you dolt. Covering it up and countering by applying "constructive criticism" (which it's not, all you're suggesting is that people should just shut up and suck up more to you), and it will not fix anything. You still have a nearly endless list of things to work on. I believe they're still not done. Why the heck did you waste your time with this post anyway? You could have been working on writing an interesting, "non-anti-intellectual" quest; or just as well you could have posted something funny and light-hearted in the off-topic forum to amuse your players. But no, you resort to the #1 mistake most people commit: Placing the blame on others, while in truth, you have nobody to blame but yourselves. And you're trying to tell people in the same thread you have a life next to this?

Furthermore, I've never read or heard any complaints about this Estralis Seboran GM-fellow. Why can't you learn from this person? Why do you just post a merry-go-round of subtle bashing of anybody who ever critisized you or other GMs? So yeah, admitting to weakness is a definitely a weakness too; it's a flaw in the image of Illarion's GMs in my eyes. Improving and learning from mistakes is not.

This thread is an insult. My reply here is a slap back. In your face!

The first point what I don’t like is the misthrust towards the GM’s. Apparently in the eyes of the players, all GM’s ar bad or only want’s to destroy the game. All the GM’s are always unfair to the players and interfere anytimes.

Sure, I live by the principle given in Hagakure, "trust a man who commits mistakes more than a man who doesn't; for the man who commits no mistakes is bound to commit them in the future". But likely, most people don't. You screwed up in certain things, which I will address further below. So?

So talk to the hand.

Most times, GM’s are also human as you. We are more error prone than the server . We have Illarion a RL and in the most cases a job too. It can be the we also can become angry. But we are humans who can make failures and learn from it. Why are the most of you afraid of talking with us? You have the possibilities of PM’s, MSN and E-Mails. If in your eyes something is wrong, say it. Surely I haven’t got time, anytime. Because of that, I like pm’s much more than the other things. If I don’t answer and anyhow you think its important, ask me again. Nobody has ever been banned because he has told us his opinion. And I try to differ from my being as a Human and a GM

Lovely contradiction. Who's the "you" who are afraid to talk to you? The "you"s who have been constantly treated like crap and been talked to in condescending mannerisms over the forums? Get real. And don't even start on the whiny old story about having a life. Everybody does. Wake up.

To the missthrust I also count that everyone sees everytime intrigue. Everytime, a char which is better than someone other or who can different things than someone other, arrives illarion. I hear the same thing. He is GM pushed. That’s unfair… Thrust the GM’s in their decision. Enjoy the Quest which are hence out of it. Enjoy the game. And I am the last on who won’t give rewards for good players in a quest. And to say it again. GM’s are only human as you. We make also failures.

Again, somehow contradicting itself. You're a) showing signs of guilt by hereby stating that things were modified by GMs, while others were not, b) in the same paragraph, punching down anybody who disagrees with this approach and claims exactly the same thing with a "shut up and just play. You're being unfair".

Let me just rack up the facts. I never had a problem with not being favoured in the game. But I heard enough complaints from more than enough players, describing things that amounted to obvious favouritism. When half of anything interesting can't be done by the game-client, people have to come to the GMs to ask like little kids "Can I do this? Can you help me do this?" And this is exactly the point where favouritism begins. You'll say yes here, and no there. Some people RPed their asses off, grabbed screenshots, and had things realized for them in little to no time by GMs, others seemed to have been completely ignored although they put equal amount of effort into it.

I am also convinced that there should be no "adding" of things to the game like summoning powers or other crap via discreet communications with GMs. In my roughly six months of playing Illarion, I never felt any need to request anything from the GMs. If a client, game, rule system limits me, so be it. I'll find ways to play with what I have. Asking for more is like being a spoiled brat who never has enough toys from the parents.

Like in the smoking campaigns, take this piece of advice:
Just say no.

GMs should not be intrusive, ever, other than condoning quests and events. In fact, you shouldn't even have "GM characters", instead, each GM should have a varying amount of NPCs they control with variable account numbers so people start confusing your characters with other player characters. If you start jacking up player characters either positively or negatively, you'll have to do it for everybody, otherwise it's automatically favouritism. If you build a friggin' kingdom and castles in the game for one group of players, you'll have to do it for others too. A sorry excuse like this thread won't make people with more than half a brain stop from thinking for themselves.

So, tough luck.

The second point. Criticism and commendation. Have I told you that GM’s are human as you the most times . We want to hear constructive critisim. But an Illarion is soooo bad doesn’t help us. We need exact details, what is wrong, why is that wrong, how can we do it better in your eyes. And please say what you like on the changes. Nothing is more frustrating, after some months of work on illarion, than hearing “the new system is bad, the old was better, bring back the old, all you make is bad, you destroy the whole game”. We motivate us on commendation and are demotivatet through to harsh criticism. I don’t want to say, “don’t criticise us!” How could we do it better if you don’t say anything. You should only understand why we sometimes react as we react (get in rage…). We put much of our freetime in this project. And a simple “Boah that is sooo bad” from you, ist one of the hardest hits in the face you can give us after so much work. Sometimes I have asked myself. Is its worth to do that? It is worth to make all the work to hear such words? Sometimes I wanted to give up to develop the game. But sometimes I see the players playing it, having fun with new features. Players who tries out different new things. This are the moments where I said to myself, yes its worth. Back to work, we have much to do in the future and to make illarion better.

Hey, I'm not going to add to all the ass-kissing that's already been done on this thread. I commend you though that you made an effort of making the thread bi-lingual, so the english-speaking part can have their say as well.

So far, Next time you are frustrated and want to let out your frustration on the bad GM’s who always want to destroy the game. Think twice what you are doing with that. Sometimes words can really hurt. And I can say that I am no angel, sometimes I also in a bad mood, and then I say things which I don’t want to say.

I've thought very carefully about writing this post. If my words hurt, then you GMs are sissies and should give up your jobs to long-time players you trust. It's your "job" to be cool 24/7, to be as little intrusive as possible, and to make the gaming experience as enjoyable as possible for as many people as possible. Do you want to argue again about doing it all for free and having a life next to it? Tough luck again, because a) I doubt I'll be reading any replies to this, and b) I've come to see from other online RPGs that stating otherwise is "BS" or even "TIBS"*.

*TIBS = Typical Illarion Bullshit.

Bottom line: Your complaints toward the players are completely out of place, and they will not hide over the fact that the GMs have done little to nothing to improve these things that were critisized, if people are still complaining about them.

So, yah, congratulations to admitting that you screwed up. Murphy's law says you're condemned to do it again, so next time, work on something useful rather than another useless thread like this, for example, work on yourself. Nobody's perfect, but you can try to get there! I swear.

One more kick in the stomach for someone already on the ground:

Hmm well, I agree, I do not like it when people criticize the gm's. I don't critize them... but many people do, and it's not cool.

Oh PLEASE. That sounds like a cheap campaign against drugs. The problem with this here is, however: drugs are bad and will kill you, criticizing people's work is not and shouldn't result in harm.

I know that I as a person am challenged with critique, but I process it, and even if it takes a while, it gets through. If someone critisizes without being constructive, tough luck. Either ignore or it when you realize it's completely BS, or think carefully and discern if there's more than just BS to it, and try to deduce something constructive from it. Whatever you do, do yourself a favor and don't complain that you were critisized—it will only make you look worse, and not the person who spent the time observing and expressing criticism.

[Garett Gwenour]

I agree with Moriear on one thing, there should be no characters with special abilites. There is no reason for one character to have super strength or another can summon rot worms.
It is funner IMO for people to play like everyone else, being mortal. No one is invincible and anyone can beat anyone else no matter how long the people have been in Illarion.

[Pendar]

Moirear sian,
Unfortunately I do not have as much energy as you for replys. Nor is this a critique your critique post. It is a well thought out post, I think that to a degree the amount of venom you employ detracts from your points. As of course harsh, or offencive critisism is always easier to shrug off.

A few points,
1. there should be gm controled players who can hand any one in the town there ass. Why as with out a enemy that is unbelievably powerful there is no urgency or fear. All good fiction works this way the hereos did not just walk into mordor and hand sauron his ring up his nose on a sword.
2.The idea of having plot specific "normal" player characters furthering a plot concept is a great one. As a certain player of damian connely illastrated as a supposedly wicked character. When the island is against you, you are a goner the bad guys need some one to get ther back. How ever this task would be time consumeing and were as i would welcome Gm controled players taking a role as "normal players" do they have time?.
3. I dont know the ooc history of vashikar but I look at the players who are very involved in it. Not only is it a huge boon to the world of illarion and rp but the people who are the leaders or figure heads of vashikar are really good roleplayers who add a lot to my expierence. The game would be poorer with out it and the right players have risen to the job as it were. How ever it was organised.
4.I would argue that players must complain about the GM's because they have not got there way. There is a very similar post about having more cerebal in game quests going on this forum. Perhaps that is a more appropriate way to express some of the sentiments this thread has encountered.Illarion should never be based on the GM's actions infact one is free to log on once a gms quest is over or mostly ignore it. I think we are agreed there.
5.as to the issue of special powers, well yes no what ever. If they that govern see fit to make something extraodinary happen. So be it, much like life there are always people who can do things I cant. I dont much feel a need for a special ability either, but you know what this is gaming community. Not a realised world for my pleasure or any ones in particular. As such if some one gets there hopes realised and some dont. that is life, less gripe more RP i say.

So much contraversy occurs in the game because people are playing competatively. They want to win so no one should summon this, GMs shouldnt tweak his that. I say screw it, I have been to the cross on may occasions by being pked, run over by a gms quest etc. I may never be a name that rings out in illarions history. Then again very few people are.
One does not play this game to win, by that token it shouldnt really matter if some one gets a power or oppurtunity i didnt.
Always the biggest debasers are players who has ceased to play which is unfortunate as people who wont renter a game and do there part to make it a great space. Have a hell of nerve calling from the side lines.
In closing Moirear Sian I have enjoyed many of your posts, I trust when and if you read this you will be able to pick out what was infact a direct response to your post and what was more a general take on peoples attitudes.
Pendar

[Misjbar]

I partly agree, and partly disagree with you Sian.

Firstly, I think you are being a bit too harsh. You are basicly saying that all GMs do (apart from Estralis) is bad, or full of mistakes or missing insight. Maybe not all the time, but a lot. I think this is a little exaggerated. Yes, there have been some mistakes, like everyone makes them. I can actually think of a few that actually involve my characters. But that does not matter.
I believe that GMs do make mistakes, sometimes very grave ones, but they have, in my opinion, tried their best to fix/avoid them. As you stated, destructive critisism, but atleast do not exaggerate it .

Secondly, about the whole char special power thingie. I believe in some cases this is justified. It gives a sense of true fear in your characters if there is an evil power up North. Elseway the game would become lame. You would have no one to fear, because you can just "beat" one of the evil guys. But that is just my opinion.

Thirdly, this not being based on your post Sian, the fact that it seem PGing is encouraged through quests. Misjbar for instance can become elvish again, but he must suddenly sacrifice some ingots to some god. I mean, how much do you people (GM in question) think I spent time ingame? I never had more then 2 ingots, and it was quickly spent again, because of the many crossgoings (I have had approximately 57 crossgoings in my Illarion career. Go figure, I have not played that often for about 5 months.). If, for instance, make it more a quest. Maybe perform a search for that god, maybe solve a difficult riddle (one that truly might take a week). That would be fun, intellectual, good for the brain, and would truly give a great new feeling to a game that has been fun (what I mean by this scentence is: I had fun IG, untill I found out about how it worked in Illarion. When my characters still had that special feel(btw, this is because of myself v_v). Anyhow, this was more an addition to the whole intellectual quest things. (<==constructive critisism n_n)

Fourthly, it is not really the GMs fault Illarion loses his old touch. Games evolve, people change, and, oh well, I change n_n. Don't ever expect the game to be the same, and don't blame a GM if it doesn't stay the same.

Just my point of view. I'm tired, just got back from my paperround. If you find any illogical things, just ignore them =3.

~Misjbar~ AKA Erik

[Cassandra Fjurin]

Furthermore, I've never read or heard any complaints about this Estralis Seboran GM-fellow. Why can't you learn from this person?

Oh ok then i will learn from this person and stop programming illarion and do only the funny things for the players. Different GM's do different things. He makes quest, he makes really good quests and do a great job with this. His work is that what the most players see as funny. Why to blame the person who makes funny things for me? My job is it to implement features (the most times) and sometimes this features aren't good for all. Sometimes we have some decisions to make which aren't good for the players. And in this case mostly the programmers or the bad bad GM's are the persons who get the blame. The weakest goes to the wall. Do you really think I'am happy about the charwipe which will come sooner or later? Oh yes i am dancing happily if I think of it. #me praises the charwipe. At last something more to anger the players. My job is done here.

You see my post as an insult. Thats not my problem. It never was ment so. It was only to explain our point of view. Your post seems to say. "Hey what do you want? It should be a honour for you to work on illarion, You have no right to complain."
No sometimes its not. Sometimes its more then frustration.

Sometime we have moments like this:

You have to destroy months of work from other persons who are like friends of you and you know this will hit them hard, but there are no technical possibilities to implement the things like they want.
Do you think i feel happy after such an action?
After that you have to think if there is another posibility to implement the new features of the others without destroying all the work in it.
You have to do other things. Programm and test. After that you have to read a 2 sides post why illarion and the gm's are so bad.
After that its late and you want to go to bed. But someone asked for quest support. Ok why not helping a bit out. But the quest tookes more time than planed but the players seems to have fun with it.
After that you have to read in the forum that the whole quest was crap. Oh really? Players in bad mood. Again i have done my job.

No it isn't a honour, sometimes its funny sometimes its hard. Sometimes you have to build up a wall around you. And who knows me knows that this is not easy for me.

And before you ask again why i have time to post such a useless crap, I am on holidays and work a bit on Illarion during this days.

Why i do this? Because Illarion have some important aspects of my life and i think i have as an GM the same right of you to complain about different things i don't like.

[Darlok]

If you build a friggin' kingdom and castles in the game for one group of players, you'll have to do it for others too.

Silverbrand, Greenbair, Shi Long Abby, Eldan Ebby, Grey Rose Castle, Seahorse Inn, Silverstar Shop, Tialdins Tavern, Bloodskull Cave, ect.

You just overlooked these, right ?

Seems to me you are complaining to an artist about his choise of colors ,and that he never used your favourite tone of yellow, without ever seeing the whole picture of him.

There is no reason for one character to have super strength or another can summon rot worms.

Dont be afraid to name me, since my Character was the only one (as far as I know) that had this ability. (Note the past tense please.)
Reasons for such superpowers can be easily found in quests, and I was asked if I wanted to play this role.
Yes, you read right, I did not go to the GMs: "Hey friends, buddys, companions! I have such a kewl idea! Give Darlok Super-Powers!"
No, they came to me one day asking if I would agree to this quest and if I would offer my character as one of the main figures in it.
Guess what the first thing was that I heard after accepting?
Not what they expect me to do in this quest, or where I have to go and what to say, it was:
"If we ever catch you cheating with this, you can kiss all of your characters goodbye."

How would you feel when you know that somebody is always there watching every of your steps ?


All in all, they do a great job.
Like everyone can do better from time to time, but at least they are trying.
And honestly, would you go through all of this crap they are constantly doing for us in thier freetime?
Illarion is a hobby-project, nothing more, nothing less.
If it would be thier job, we could expect it from them, since we would pay them, but as long as they are giving us the best way to kill our freetime we should at least threat them with the respect they deserve for it.
Of course this does not include that we walk around blindly and praise every of thier decision, but this excludes to insult them for thier devotion to this little gem we like to play.

[Irania]

You GM's intimidate me.

[Cassandra Fjurin]

I've thought very carefully about writing this post. If my words hurt, then you GMs are sissies and should give up your jobs to long-time players you trust

Ok we need a long time player with following skills.

-good C++ knowledge
-good to very good in OOP programming (Polymorphic classes, abstract classes, overloading and so on.)
- it would be good if the person is bilingual. Some of the code is (if he is commented) commented in german.
-enough time to work in more then 10.000 lines of sourcecode which are distributed in more than 40 files
- SQL knowledge (Basic Query's)
- STL knowledge
- he must be so thrustfully that he doesn't missuse the power he is given
- he should be able to work in the team.
- some basic Linux knowledge wouldn't be bad.
- he should be aware that some minor task are really boring and costs much of time (especially debugging, i have spend last time 6 hours to find the bug of the magic system [Runes sometimes are not learned if they should] and this was really a sisyphean task )
- the person should have really fun in programming in C++

All people who think they are good enough in that and thrustfully enough can announce. It's not because i want to give up my job in illarion, but i think it wouldn't be bad to have another good programmer with enough time to spend in this project.

[Brendan Mason]

Sounds like I'm the guy for the job. If I had any of those skills. Or that much time.

Look, Cassandra, we don't need you to post the list of tasks you undertake every day. We respect them and in fact, enoy the rewards that come from them.

However, some people feel that one of your many tasks has been somewhat neglected. Your ability to play fair. Perhaps you should have listed that.

[Darlok]

Your ability to play fair.

The question remains: What is "fair" ?

I actualy planed to elaborate this (at first planed as retorical) question in my own posts, but changed my mind and deleted the rest of this post and wait till someone answers.

(Sometimes I can be so horribly cheap.)

[Brendan Mason]

Fair is stepping back and removing yourself from your emotions and then making your decision.

Fair is considering how other players, players with different outlooks on the game might react to your decision.

Fair is maybe using the SVST board to ask if a certain controversial decision is fair.

Fair is fair!

I'm not accusing Cassandra of being unfair. I'm just suggesting that she may have been, selectively fair.

(Sometimes I can be so horribly vague .)

[Darlok]

Wouldn't it be fair of the players to step back from thier personal opinion and respect the decission of a GM who mostly has a better overview of the whole situation ?

Wouldn't it be fair of the players to consider that the GMs, may have different outlooks on the game when you react to thier decission ?
(e.g.: Plot-guiding)

I leave this SVST argument, since I dont know if you use it "fair" yourself.
Raising yourself a discussion when you feel the need of it, and not waiting for a GM to show up and formulate the questions you wanted to ask.

Is Fair really the same as Fair ?

Fair for one is to threat everyone equal.
Fair for the other is to threat everyone according how he involves himself into it, or if he just floats with the stream.

I am not accusing you to be unfair, just too vague with your answers.

[Fooser]

Yay for secretive BSing.

[Nerevar Schattenaxt]

Yay for TIBS

As a GM you should act mature and fair, and not childish.
Cassandra definitely is neither acting fair nor mature.

Also i would like to add that it's obvious some players get favoured because they are in relationship with GMs.

As martin always wanted to give examples when giving criticism, i will do it this time:
The best example is player of Cassandra and player of Maeve who are a couple. Some of Maeves skills were maxed. GM's said, because of "good rp". Everyone who was on the RL meeting knows how charming the player of Maeve was toward the GMs. The whole truth, or a simple try to hush a RL favour? Is this any fair?

Is this really fair, huh?

[Moirear Sian]

Wouldn't it be fair of the players to step back from thier personal opinion and respect the decission of a GM who mostly has a better overview of the whole situation ?

Nevermind, I was thinking of commenting, but I'd break the rules. Ah, what the hell. I'll just break these rules, I don't care about being banned here.

Darlok, as we all know and jest about, used to have some GM-powers during a certain amount of time. Darlok, who jacked up things to his whims and "for the better of dramatic storytelling!" Then eventually, got kicked for it.

Now, the funny thing is that I never witnessed it. But alone the talk about it, and regardless of whether this is true or not--the fact ALONE that a GM was kicked, proves to me that a GM does not necessarily have a better overview of a whole situation.

In short, stfu Darlok.

Bye everybody! *waves*

[Damien]

Cassandra is definitely NOT acting childish. I can fully understand what she means. She is native german speaker, so her english may sound a little strange from time to time - like mine too - but he is definitely NOT acting childish.

If you do a plot, you must always think of many ways the players will try to solve or approach them. Only one or two ways may work, but you will have to plan "what will i do if..." alike.
Even if you thought of seven possible player reactions, there will be players using other ways. Sometimes, some players act so plainly dumb that you want to run your head against the next wall hehehe... Example : when i use a stone golem to slay anything BIG with one or two hits, there WILL be a player nearby attacking the golem. This happens in at least 50% when an unknown, strong thing comes along.

Sometimes, when you work out a carefully made plot line, and you're absolutely sure the players cannot ignore several things, someone comes up and totally wrecks it.

THEN, things can go wrong. Things that may cause the one or other player to poof around as a cloud (see golem example), and sometimes, the player is so convinced that his way of solving (messing) the situation was correct, that he starts complaining, arguing (or attacking it again and again until you ban him for ten minutes).
This can be a little frustrating. De-motivating, too. I myself have stopped making organized quests for a long while because there's always someone complaining, and i simply do not have the time to do big things at the moment (except for working on priest magic system stuff, which now consists of about 16 pages of written text and four pages of detailled excel sheets).


Moirear Sian is always trying to provoke a bit to cause people think more. He says what he thinks. This is a good idea, but the provoking can be just enerving sometimes.
Speaking of acting childish, especially you, Nerevar, should look at your own nose.

And yes, i'll bring LARP weapons to the next RL meeting.

Maeves Skills are, as far as i know, NOT maxxed. The staff has decided against doing such a thing to any player. There are NO exceptions. Not even good RP.
Since the worm attack, the tool for maxxing skills is out of order. We cannot look at or maximize them.

[Dónal Mason]

*cough HER MAGIC RESISTANCE cough*

[Damien]

Half of magic resistance is caused by attributes. The MR only does 50% of it, as far as i know.
Some attributes can be changed for plot stuff, but they will always be reduced to normal when the plot is over, even if it lasts for some time.

I cannot look at the skills and attributes now, but the staff has decided NEVER to change skills of any Non-GM- and Non-NPC-Char. And this will not be done.

[Pendar]

Edit I wrote much of this offline, posted it and now there are many replys stateing many of my thoughts and discounting some. Regardless the ideas are sound enough and state my feelings so I am leaveing it up, other wise unedited.

you know I am sitting here reading this and wanting to pull my hair out.
The complete and utter child likeness of some messages in this post is amazing.
I use the word childlike as it is only in a 5 year olds mentally that the world operates on a system of complete equality. If judy gets 5 sweets I want 5 sweets.
I support whole heartidly brendans right to ask questions and garrets right to state his opinion. I even respected sians right to be down right abrasive in critism.
These last two posts take the cake, Seems to me we have a continiouse flood of people who dont play the game any more who have a lot to say. Occasionally interesting things more often though irrelevant things.

Nerevar, really honestly if maeve getting her stats jacked up bothers you so much go play tibia runescape or any number of commercial games were the amount og players on at anytime is such that quests can only be obtained from npcs and are linear. Were people are not working behind the scenes to make it a unique role play expierence. As i understand it mary is going to play a a major part in up coming plots in illarion. Of course that may well be a guess. How ever if you were in game you would see that mary and her power is relevant to the game world. You know what I am going to stick my kneck out I believe it is the gm's right to power up characters that they expect to fufill specific roles in the grand scheme. I would be shocked to her mary was not powered up for that reason. Thus far she has allready given rise to some great rp and been a focal point in a lot of happeing in games.If cassandra believed maeve could do the job right, then it make sense to have the part played by a close friend/partner. Simply for the expendence of communication ?
Sorry you were not powered up hard lines,,,,as stated above want a toffee to?

Sian, I dont know your posts intially on these boards were great some where you seem to have become disenchanted and dare i say imbittered with this game and community. Do yourself a favour dont get banned just delete the damn forum from favorites. As i have stated i am disinclined to listen to those who criticise and dont have active characters. As it is shouting from the side lines. We arent playing cause this game is not good enough for us, but you all really need to listen up. Cause although we dont care enough about this game to play. We know how it should be done.
~insert this line any place a non player is sharing critique in any but the most constructive ways~

To those of you who comfort yourself by saying i am just kissing ass and a newb. I say simply that how ever the hell you justify it. weather it is a GM, developer or martin. When ever you complain about a member of staff some one actively putting effort into this project.
Just rember you are how ever you try and deny it playing in there sandpit, and will be until you put years into creating your own mmorp.
Pendar

P.s Sian it did strike me that for all i know you may have a character although i seem to recall you dont. Little matter take the point your critique has ceased to be enlightening and if getting banned would be such a no issue, follow the aformentioned advice anyway.

[Darlok]

Sian, I would love to comment your posts the way I really feel about them.
But unlike you, I really plan to stay longer on these boards and be allowed to use my Darlok-Board-Account a bit longer.

But let me give you some advises:

Like you gave up on Illarion, Illarion gave up on you.
Do it like Kasume and just delete anything that is related to Illarion and turn your back to it finaly.
You are doing yourself and us a big favour.

We do not need a messiahs here, who tries to die the martyr death to open our eyes how bad everybody is who is deeper involved with Illarion and how everybody abuses the other players like "The Sims"-figures.

A GM was removed from his positon ? Oh what a big deal.
Happens everyday.
You even said you dont know why, but of couse you belive it was something very very bad.

I actualy enjoyed watching how GM Dolkin was removed in Tibia, but am I now saying that GM Execssus is as well corrupt as he was ?
(Its my hobby to read thier boards )
They are human, bright one, as Cassandra said and thus they are doomed to make mistakes.
When I look back in my own life there are so many points I would love to change, saying the right thing in the right situation, doing the right thing at the right time.
But in the end I always acted as the situation was back then, and what I thought was best.
Nobody, especialy not you, can do it better.
Even you have to admitt you are not foolproof and never will be, but you expect others to be.

So finaly get lost, .... Sian.
And be careful, this dog even bites when barking.

A fire extinguisher is needed most here, I am sorry Cassandra.

[Nerevar Schattenaxt]

TIBS

I love the way you people scare players.

Oh, and Pendar, I don't quite get it.

[Pendar]

I tend to go off on my own little path when i get my teeth stuck in,
If you could clarify what was unclear I would be happy to explain it.
Despite my abrasive post it is my hope to be clear and put forward a valid concept that should be thought provokeing or at least make sense.
So yeah well free to ask if you are interested. I also appreciate that many people on these boards are working in there second language something I apreciate and admire. So if I am at any point being to complicated, just ask me to try again. As your english is always going to be better than my german and I really appreciate people making the effort to corraspon despite a language gap.
Pendar

[Moirear Sian]

Sian, I would love to comment your posts the way I really feel about them.

Why don't you do it, you wimp?

Really, that's what used to irritate me most about Illarion's community. So let me just go back one last time to sounding like an ol' geezer: "Back in my time, son, most people were afraid to just say things straight! An' I'mma terribly afraid ta say it, but yer young'ns seem ta be doin' the exact same thing!"

#me wags a finger at Darlok with a scolding expression on his face

By the way, didn't you read what Pendar wrote? People with no active character have no say on the forum (where things are supposed to be discussed, btw, Pendar). Last time I was playing, you were not, Darlok, and you were already bitching and moaning on the forums like a little sissy. Go back home! I love how enraged you people get by a simple stfu. I say that to buddies all the time, and they have no problem with it, they can laugh about it.

So buddy, just take Pendar's and now my own advice and stfu.

Otherwise, talk to the hand.

This one was a great laugh, too. You should frame it in gold and hang it up on your wall as a nice souvenir:

A GM was removed from his positon ? Oh what a big deal.
Happens everyday.
You even said you dont know why, but of couse you belive it was something very very bad.

Yeah, someone in control and administration breaks the rules, all is well. Happens everyday. Yeah, sure, if it happens in a government irl, there's little we can do against it if we all have my attitude. I don't like messing with the cops, because I've been told by several people I look like a terrorist (even though I'm a really nice asshole irl! I swear!).

But if it's a game, sorry bub, but rules are rules! If you can't uphold rules in a simple game while you're in an arbitrary position, what's the point in having them? That's like suddenly taking all the money from the bank in a game of Monopoly and saying you introduced a new rule, and are "robbing the bank". Well guess what? You go straight to jail for robbery, and you don't get your $200 when you pass over the start field, moron, because the baby that cries the loudest gets the most attention, and the fist that hits the hardest determines the rules!

Also, that's what complaining is for, you ninnie. To show there's room for improvement. As Pendar seemed to have initially understood, my strong offensiveness has to do with provocation, and also so people can shrug it off to a certain extent. But I will not
• do you the favor of making of list of improvements to be done. The criticism has been done by other players, long ago, and has ever since been neglected.
• just "piss off" like that moron Moathia told Kasume too.
• take your BS.
• cause mass suicide or heart attacks among the GMs (who don't deserve death, rather worse fates, like GMing for Illarion for the rest of their lives, mwahahaha).

Last but not least, Darlok, you have failed to discuss the core essence of what I brought in, so you should not complain about how I chose to debate. The core essence, summarized for simpletons like yourself is:

• In my experience with Illarion, the GMs seem to have lacked the ability to apprehend and adapt to the criticism, failed to backtrack and go over things that entire groups of people openly pointed out as mistakes. They live in the constant delusion that every change, every action, everything they do is perfectly correct, and fail to comprehend that there are times when you have to step back a bit and observe (and yes, actually, this goes mostly to martin, rather than any of the GMs), as well as times when you have to return to an old point, and revamp things completely.

Edit: I digress. The core essence was: You don't even have to say something when somebody is feeling guilty. I didn't need to flame Pendar to get him/her pissed. I didn't need to flame you Darlok, to get you pissed at me, either. Heck, I didn't even address Cassandra personally in a whole single line, and you people come shooting out with most interesting statements like machine guns! Not to mention that Cassandra started this post. What I'm saying is... nevermind.

Is the "Tell-Tale Heart" by Edgar Allen Poe a term for you?
Plot synopsis: A man murders another, and chops him up into little pieces. He hides everything under wooden boards in his chamber within his home. But the murderer goes crazy, he believes to always be hearing the heart still thumping under the boards. One day the police come to inspect his appartment, and the thumping of the heart he believes to hear drives him fully mad; drives him to tear up the wooden boards and show the heart of the man he murdered and shriek into the policemen's faces that he, in fact, murdered the man.
In short: This thread = a sign of the sentiment known as guilt. And I don't mean the "Oh no, I spilled some coffee," but the "Oh crap, I swear, I really didn't mean to kill your dog with that bundle of lit dynamite I tossed in its general direction" sort of guilt.

And if it does ease you, I'll be pretty much gone for a long while again from these forums, just after submitting this post. That is, until someone reminds me of Illarion again and tells me how crappy they find it, and I do them a favor and look into the forum again. And then see something that's so utterly stupid that it makes my skin crawl and compels me to write provocative posts (in order for people to not just clam up and "go with the flow", but rather say what they really think--refer to Brendan's posts, which have a beautifully subtle hint of criticism inherent, which is equally shot down and ignored as my in-your-face-approach).

And Pendar? Jackasses like you make me not want to return to the game, ever again. What are you trying to do, profile yourself in this forum and establish your role in an online community by dissing someone who has attacked you in no single way? Watch out, you might end up like my pal Darlokie, stuck up with regularly reading old forums of games they don't play anymore (Tibia? C'mon, Darlok. I didn't even need to slap the label "Loser" on your forehead, you did it yourself. I mean, I feel like a loser for occasionally looking back into Illarion and not doing "everybody" that favour you speak of, but... Tibia?!). Pendar, seriously, ask yourself, can I be bitter about a game I check back into every now and then?

Right, I didn't think so.
(And in case I need to spell it out: Checking back in every now and then = Giving it a new chance every now and then.)

Pendar and Biggimus D. both, you are seriously cracking me up.

Oh, and you're on fire. Someone better call the firemen now. Ta ta.

PS: Damien! You said something nice about me! Thanks, man. It's been a while since I've read any positive words about myself on this forum. My ego feels skyscraper-high now. Now I can go die in peace, and you can all go have fun with Illarion.

Peace everybody, I'm out.

[Aristeaus]

But if it's a game, sorry bub, but rules are rules! If you can't uphold rules in a simple game while you're in an arbitrary position, what's the point in having them? That's like suddenly taking all the money from the bank in a game of Monopoly and saying you introduced a new rule, and are "robbing the bank". Well guess what? You go straight to jail for robbery, and you don't get your $200 when you pass over the start field, moron, because the baby that cries the loudest gets the most attention, and the fist that hits the hardest determines the rules!

It only costs $50 to leave jail, yes i like this rule.

[Moathia]

I love you too Moirear.

To behonest I posted that because unlike most other people who leave, Kasume was always an ass hole, and he always spammed to forum with useless crap. Then when I said he was never going to come to these forums again, I thought great, and I was happy, then he posted again, and normally I don't care when people leave then post, but honestly Kasume deserved that, and it's politer than what I would have liked to say to him.

Also Moirear, why do you still come here to complain, even though you "hate this game, hate the players, and found a better game" you must have better things to do with your life, than sits and complain about a game you don't play anymore. Seriously thats really sad.

[Adano Eles]

Threads like these are all I need for my daily dose of screwed human psychology...

I just want to give some helpful hints here. Not everyone understands sarcasm, especially if they are already heated up so maybe it's better to just leave it. And Moirear, bashing someone into your point head on is a good way to crack the board on his head but it can as well just lead to a terrible headache and him becoming very pissed.

This way we will never get any serious discussion about what is wrong with Illarion.

[Pendar]

I wrote

P.s Sian it did strike me that for all i know you may have a character although i seem to recall you dont. Little matter take the point your critique has ceased to be enlightening and if getting banned would be such a no issue, follow the aformentioned advice anyway

It is an interesting way to interpret my posting I believe my words were I am disinclined to listen to harsh critique by people who are not playing the game currently,something I stand by 100%.How ever I do not see Darlock indulgeing deconstructive criticism with out offering solutions. As such I see no reason to point that out him. Should he give me some I will.

And Pendar? Jackasses like you make me not want to return to the game, ever again. What are you trying to do, profile yourself in this forum and establish your role in an online community by dissing someone who has attacked you in no single way?

It is unfortunate that you have placed enough energy into this thread that you feel a personal attack has happend. I stated that looking back of over the forums is something I have done at length and your posts no longer hold the same value they did. It was you who decided getting banned was something you were going to persue. I merely pointed out that it seemed a waste of time. Your critique has ceased to be enlightening the moment you adopted the attitude that you would indulge a personal snipe and get yourself banned. As I understood matters.
If I have attacked you point out the instance and I will retract it with pleasure. I dont know you, it would be most unfair of me.I will how ever apologise for the fact that my presence alone is enough to ruin your expierence of the forum and game.
As to ending up being some one who reads the forums of games I dont play any more, well I think that one is pretty well covered by your presence it is obviously an endearing triat people who are not angry at a members of staff or the state of a game partake in.
As to wanting to carve a name for myself as you put it, I dont really feel a need to reply that.

Lastly you speak of clamming up, well as you will be watching the forums watch my reaction when I find something I dont like in game. Much the way I have reacted to this post speaking my mind.

Be honest sian you are behaving like some one who has picked there nose and is now amazed at the huge booger on there finger.
You came in here picking and I have taken you up for being nasty.
I dont know there is more to say,
Pendar

[Rackere Diplomatre]

Also Moirear, why do you still come here to complain, even though you "hate this game, hate the players, and found a better game" you must have better things to do with your life, than sits and complain about a game you don't play anymore. Seriously thats really sad.

I also left the game but where is the problem? There is a nice community, even though they feel hated by some people who really want the best for them.
I also found another (maybe better) game but where is the problem? Is it forbidden to use more than one online forum, to visit more than one website?
I would also tell some things to be changed but why? There are enough people speaking out of my heart.

Use your brain. If Moirear hated this game he wouldn't visit the forums to make things better. I wouldn't either. I wouldn't read that Thread, well, I tried to avoid this thread for a long time after I read Cass' first post. I knew what would be going on. Many people knew that.

I don't think Moirear is going to destroy everything. I don't think he complains just to annoy you. I don't think he really wants to insult you, I almost know he would never do that though he maybe wants you to feel fooled or insulted until you think about it. He's a nice guy. Did I say he wants the best for Illarion?

Well, start using your brain and start understanding sarcasm - not that that post was meant sarcastically

And since I know everybody ignores me I don't really expect answers

[Nikago Fyrstyn]

Rack i tell you..use your OWN brain it just seems he likes to call other peoples here stupid and they should shut up and stuff, that is just like a lil' Kid would do it.

But this reminds me of a Story of a reaven and a fox let me tell you something.
A reaven and a fox meet at a wall, the reaven , on the wall, got some delicious grapes and the fox asked "where you got them reaven?" while the reaven eat them he said "they are soo sweet nothing for you" and the fox responded "Well you aren't a friendly one" the reaven giggeld and told him where he found it " when you can reach them you will get delicious grapes", so the fox walked where the grapes grown and he jumped up, but, how bad, he didn't reached them, he tried again and again, but never reached them.
After some time he turned away and the reaven came "You don't got them ? you don't like grapes" with these words the reaven eat some more grapes and the fox looked, full of angry, at him and finally replied, while he turned to go, "Bahh these are not sweet they are surely bitter and terrible".

So ..just something you can cool down..ohh and when its sooo funny ..stfu Sian.