On heroes in Illarion.

[Dónal Mason]

From what I've seen, a large portion of characters are good fighters or mages, who fight ogres and other such creatures quite often. Why are there so many of these characters? Why does the game seem to be getting more focused on having a powerful character? I've also noticed that a lot of quests seem to be combat based. Earlier for instance, there were rotworms. Fantastic, more monsters to kill, hooray! It also seems that playing a character who does not function well in combat is not an option anymore. Character who could not fight were told to go to the shop. Huzzah, I get to go to a boring old shop, where there will probably be only my character, and stay there for the duration of the quest! It was either that or walk outside and risk having my character killed.

Why on earth does everyone feel the need to have a strong character?

[Djironnyma]

most times the monsters are only the top of the icemountian.... the monsters are often the end of long and har quests from evil players how played thes quest to attack the monsters..... so you play on the wrong side if you doesnt wand to fight the monsters

[Cliu Beothach]

I'm with Donal...

Ice mountain!?!!

[Fooser]

Wow, I was thinking that exact same thing today. That's what a lot of things base around. People scratch their heads at powergaming, but take a look around, quests promote it, groups promote it, repeating certain types of stories promotes it. Fighting is a large chunk of things, a bit too much, and it actually gets boring going through it over and over again.

[Bloodhearte]

Illarion world OOC: "PGing is bad, mmkay. You shouldn't PG. 'Cause it's bad, and...mmkay."

Illarion world IC: "As one of the 1,984,657 heros in the land, I swear I will slaughter each and every rot worm with my double axe! They're no problem, after all, I eat skeletons for breakfast and demons for dinner! BRING IT ON!!!!"

The Fair Players: "What? Wait, my character isn't a good fighter...can you warriors get over your superiority complex, refrain from sticking me in the shop for a half an hour, and let me use brain power to help somehow?"

The Illarion world OOC: "No. Wait...what shade is your slashing skill?

The Fair Players: "Uh...in the library it says 'Specialist.'"

The Illarion world OOC: "Nope, sorry, you have to be a Grandmaster at LEAST."

I sympathize, really I do.

[Garett Gwenour]

Realistically, where would the town guard send innocents who cannot defend the town when the town is under attack from rot worms? Would they want a weak hobbit in the way? No, they would want them in a safe location that can be defended easily.
It seems to me that you want recognition for playing the weak character.
Congratulations.

[Brendan Mason]

I couldn't agree more with my "brother." Very rarely do we come across a GM organised quest that is cerebral in the slightest.

@Dji:

While I'm sure that there is a huge backstory to some of these quests, the fact that culminate in a monster-fest is hugely depressing.

There is a dramatic build up of tension, character development, nuances and then BAM, deus ex machina plot device, everything resolved with a monster quest.

I re-iterate, it's depressing and annoying for the players that find combat and so forth underwhelming in Illarion. It's not like the NPC monsters will roleplay back to us.

[Bloodhearte]

Realistically, where would the town guard send innocents who cannot defend the town when the town is under attack from rot worms? Would they want a weak hobbit in the way? No, they would want them in a safe location that can be defended easily.
It seems to me that you want recognition for playing the weak character.
Congratulations.

So rather than sending the "weak characters" (although I think a specialist of slashing weapons should be useful) on a travel to collect medicinal herbs or help the wounded, they stick 'em in some building 'til the fun is done.

L.a.m.e.

Edit: Recognition for playing the weaker character? No no, what we want is equal opportunity to have fun even if we don't have powergamed fighting skills (I mean, seriously - I've seen the average townsperson able to beat up mufuggin' ROT WORMS. Do you realize how long it took my assassin character to get to the level of rot worm beating? A year and a half or 2 years at least).

And is that what these "quests" are about? Recognition? Is that why so many good guys kick up their combat skills, so they can be recognized and loved by all the lil' weaklings in town that should say "our savior, you defended inferior us!"

Very stupid. Relying on a fictional medium to increase player ego, honestly...

Again, very L.A.M.E.

[Wiergraf]

Actually, I might add that I think otherwise. When I first arrived in Illarion in 2002, people were training a lot, working a lot (more than now), and when I left in about 2003/04, there were so many people stronger than I was, I was probably mediocre. Then, when I returned 2 weeks ago, im one of the strongest on the island. Either all the old, strong people left and the new players didnt make characters to be good warriors, or people arent striving to become very strong. I rarely ever see anyone train, and actually, I havent seen anyone train with eachother since I have been back.

[Brendan Mason]

I don't think Dónal raises issue with training, powergaming, etc. I do, however, believe he raises issue with anti-intellectual quests.

[Djironnyma]

@brendan: but this evil chars wand ig that it end with a attacking from monsters at the town, ths is her aim and if thay her quest good they gettable her aim....
so i think the problem isnt ooc, it is ig, if the town are in defensive it must life with such attacks, the evil side never sleep .....

[Adano Eles]

What if the evil side would ooc think up some quests which don't end with a huge monster slaughtering ic?

The reason why I loved the drought ending quest was exactly this. It was a quest of thinking instead of slaughtering.

It's not an argument to say "because the chars ic want so" because the chars ic only want what you want them to want.

[Pendar]

Once again I am going to open my mouth and put my foot in it no doubt.
It has however been my very limited expierence that it all depends on luck of the draw, Ingame events are not always combat based although many do involve combat there has been rather a variety.
Just to back up my opinion the ones i have been involved in,
1. demon appears some fighting, after which a quest to find a artifact was handed out which was a sort of riddle as i recall. Nearly everyone got involved in that."in my case hiding in terror as a skeleton hunted 3 of us in green briar but it was good solid rp fun"
2.John was held hostage in the tavern, a fair amount of work that any one could have joined in to get into the tavern. Followed by a hide and seek variation catching a halfling.
3. Vashikar castle falling down, spiders needed fighting but after that it was a mad rush to try and find rubies and work out the golem.
4. troll attack was of course very fighting based, no two ways about that.
5. todays events I missed half off how ever the part i was present to seemed to have to do a lot with kaja and the town guard. So it maybe was a little player specific.

I am not saying that things are perfect I am only sharing my perspetive that the gms are propably trying to find a balance. This is propably a situation best remedied by getting proactve. I would imagine most of the gms host games pretty unselfishly and for our fun more than theres. So maybe if you have a great idea for an ingame event or quest pm a GM with it.
I will say that even if one removed all fighting from ingame events people would still train,powergame what ever there fighting just as much. As many peoples character images are of powerful people/heros fantasy has always been populated by such images i would be suprised to ever find illarion lacking heroes.
In closeing I think the point is valid and we need to get ontop of this and come up with some good ideas for less combat based quests.
Pendar

[Naybet Grint]

The first major plot I was involved in my character was basically unable to do anything productive to help because he is too weak. He did what he could, but had to face up to the fact that he was not a 'hero' and wasn't going to be. He felt sidelined and useless. But as a player I was having loads of fun playing through that. In so many games everyone is a 'hero' so it was a new experience for me. If your character resents being protected by the guards, with their stupid shiny swords, and their stupid macho attitude, then play that resentment out. Be rude to them, charge them a little more, do whatever it is your character will do when he feels belittled. If it drives you too far round the twist, then maybe the next plot will be an intellectual one devised by your character to show the guards they don't know everything after all.

[Cylyan Fleam]

Despite the fact that my character isn't very strong, I had a great time participating in the troll quest! The atmosphere, and the whole vibe surrounding it was fun, and I enjoyed attempting to heal people while trying to avoid the hoardes of oncoming trolls. Although it was mostly fighting based, there was still room for people who wanted to contribute by healing, giving out potions, selling items to people who have lost them, etc. So, I think that even these 'fighting based' quests can still be good for characters who aren't particularly good at fighting.

The last quest I was involved in was brilliant too, and all I did was try and hide from a single demon skeleton in Greenbriar. In the end, it took all three of us to kill it - So the sense of team-work was fantastic.

[Brendan Mason]

But don't you find these fighting specific quests a tad...patronising?
As I've said, there's a build up of tension for months and months, with sub-plots gradually developing, but to have it end in monster-mashing mayhem, doesn't that just seem like the easy way out?

Instead of submitting to the player's demands, why not exhert some of your control and perhaps present an alternative that doesn't involve fighting.

Combat related quests are the easy way out. They're (admittedly fun) once in a while, but over the past few weeks we seem to have been going through a glut of them.

I have a little suggestion: provide the combat based quests, but while the quest is running, have one running parallel to it, for those players who like to do something a little more cerebral.

And please, don't let your response be:

"Bah, it's not our fault you don't like combat, just don't log on while a quests is happening."

[Darlok]

You could think of your own brain-challenging quest, plan it and then ask Estralis to host it with you.
You dont need much for this, I guess.
A couple of NPC's , some riddles, maybe a bit of collecting items here and there, and maybe a little reward in the end.

Thats the simplest solution in my eyes.

[Estralis Seborian]

Well, some words from me:

Every quest I start (some of the named quests were "mine") has serveral options to be solved. And often, one needs more then one "skill" to solve them.

Many players (characters?!) prefer to fight a horde of monsters instead of luring them into a trap or bribing them, but these options are also valid.

To solve a quest in a P&P game, you usually need different characters, a fighter to deal with the monsters, a priest to dispell a curse and a thief to find the hidden trap that would have killed the whole party. However, thieves and priests are usually rather unemployed in our current game like it is. Thus, in quests, I rarely encounter them.

By the way: If you encounter an "unusual event" you can be sure there is a GM around. So, try to make as much fun out of the situation as possible. This includes to listen to questchars instead of attacking them on sight *sighs*.

[Aristeaus]

Brendan, you forget that alot of people involved in these quests are new players and that they have not sat through the amount of hack and slash quests you have IMO they have become a lot more scarce.

Bloodhearte, rotworms were once very very strong creatures which could slay anything in thier paths, with the new fighting system they are nothing compared to what they once were, you would realise this if you were IG

And in general, these Monster Quests as you call them leave the option for the weaker player to get involved and use his mind. From experience when ever there is a quest of this type in action there is allways a GM present. And the GM's have the intelligence to adapt and listen to what other players are doing, not specifically the hack and slashers, and if the GM's decide that this persons actions are plausable they shall go along with this player. Ive seen it happen in the past in various circumstances.

[falco1029]

Some people do make events and such where killing to solve isn't possible. It's rare, but it does happen.

[Nikago Fyrstyn]

Well maybe as one named guy (yes i hold john in the tavern) it isn't very easy to plan such things and maybe "a bad net" would help planning quests and so on, but the thing that changes from p&p to illa is..the chars are kind "uncontrolled" they find there own ways and not like this "you get in the woods, you see xyz before you.Now what you do?" like it would be in p&p.
Maybe this may be a advantage, but also can be an disadvantage, like you never knew what happens, you just can imagen when you see something, its time to reac, but in p&p you got time to think about it andso on.Ok to cut it combat quest aren't the best, i personally just like an attack as something that grabs attention and the mainplot can archieve the goal, may it be to grab someone, hold him hostage and so on, I would prefer to see more "think and talk" quests from the bad side, maybe when i got time and anyone want it i could think about one....somehow my char will break out of that bottle...just kidding .
~Nika~

[falco1029]

I myself am working on one where if any violence is tried it's automatically met with death

[Josefine da Vince]

I have to say that Donal is right.

I once tried to play a non-fighting character in a combat quest and it sucked because no one was paying attention. It's just that most characters or players are too reduced in their view that they only see the way of fighting. I could be mistaken, but it's my impression.
But since there will be always someone new to this game (in the last few weeks some more) it will never be the way that a quest is not taking place because no one participates in them.

Yesterday I looked in the online list and what I saw was that there were mostly characters only I never heard off. That could be because I'm just too inactive or because they are new. But when I logged on a few minutes after the quest started I saw a bunch of characters around the mill stone (mostly 76****) and when I walked by the gate I saw the "known" characters which are good in fighting.

Maybe I'm just too long around, but if I'm honest I can't stand those quest. The last one I participated in was the one with the orcs but that was fun because the orcs were player characters. That made it different from fighting a NPC.

A well maybe I should help you to get out of your bottle Nika

[Nikago Fyrstyn]

Maybe just rub it .
No well yes thats right we got a large bunch of new players in last Time, well i jus tknow a few from them, but Got no problem with that , new Chars means mostely or sometimes new Points of view or more roleplayfun.

Its funny that it seems the younger see the older strong and the older the younger, eg. my Mainchar is just a weakling can't stand something for too long, but its funny when he believes in something like defending females and stuff, he picks up a fight, even when the female one can fight better, and tries to get the situation that nothing harms the females. But he sucks so much on fighting that he jus tlooses everytime, but well nothing to the Topic , just out of my point of view, my lil patch of knowledg, it seems it differs some really young Chars can kick demon ass and somne, like mine char, can't even stand some sceleton attack oh and playing the lil'afreid townspeople must be so boring, couse like already mentioned to many monsterquests and too less "normal" persons.

[falco1029]

On the last fighty quest (yes, FIGHTY), I knew I couldn't fight well. But for rp reasons my character went to loot and see people get killed (and he laughed when they were). SO there usually is a way for nonfighters to participate.

[The Returner]

Realistically, where would the town guard send innocents who cannot defend the town when the town is under attack from rot worms? Would they want a weak hobbit in the way? No, they would want them in a safe location that can be defended easily.
It seems to me that you want recognition for playing the weak character.
Congratulations.

I read this far, then stopped, so If I missed anything important, meh

Realistically, where would the town guard send innocents who cannot defend the town when the town is under attack from rot worms?

exactly what Town Guard? The one thats never around when their needed?

Would they want a weak hobbit in the way? No, they would want them in a safe location that can be defended easily.

Possibly, but see my statement below.

It seems to me that you want recognition for playing the weak character.
Congratulations.

There was once a time where I could play as a character with nearly no skills at all, and still own a guild....a guild which nearly made lyrenzia about two years before lyrenzia.

So, about weak characters, first of all, alot of these "Heroe's" think that they are good in everything, this is not the case. If you live and die by the sword, your brain certainly isen't going to be as sharp as a business based tailor's or intellectual or philosophist. Which means, its good to have someone on your side who can heal, make potions, or has a tendency to figure out complicated puzzles.

Again:

It seems to me that you want recognition for playing the weak character.
Congratulations.

Tell me whats wrong with that.Really.

[Reverence]

Moskher was a weak character

But ill be damned if he did not have more power than most of the sword weilding maniacs hurtling through town with thier lawnmowers

[Moskher Heszche]

Awwwwww.

[John Irenicus]

exactly what Town Guard? The one thats never around when their needed?

*winks* Ahh I like it that in every ooc discussion that is started *we* are the bad guys. Just starts to annoy lately.

We have to sleep. We have to eat. And we have a real life.

But back to topic.

Donal is right in my mind, quests are mostly made for fighting. Others said that most of the players want to fight in quests, that is right too.
Of course the gm's can't do everything, so the players have to "care" for weaker characters in fighting situations.
From the point of view of a guard the weak people should go to a place which is safe, and I think that was a common tactic in medival times. I also see that it is boring, if I would play a weak character, I wouldn't like it too.
The thing is that the strong characters are very busy too in quests, so it is not easy to "care" for weaker ones, send them to collect healing herbs or something.
Mind that too please.

To the point that they are always more high skill chars in Illarion, I belive that is some kind of vicious circle.
e.g skills are important for guards of Trolls Bane, we have high skilled orcs against us. (and always an unsure relationship to Varshikar, which has high skill chars too) Every bigger force on the island needs new good fighters or mages, because they would just easyly beaten by another force if they stopped recruiting.

[Maeve]

Donal is right in my mind, quests are mostly made for fighting.

That's not true.


But I wonder why no one cares about the dead sheeps that are STILL laying there.
The quest should have been to find out how to remove them... not to fight the rotworms...