Is it hard to play secretive loner characters?

davethebrave371 · Post by **davethebrave371** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:28 pm

I want to know if this game is more community based, or if a single loner character could go off and make his or her way? The character I want to play is an Orc, and he is definately a little more than just anti-social. However, if it is especially hard for beginning players to make it on their own, would it be more advantageous for me to chance the RP concept a little? I haven't received an eMail back yet about my application, but when I do, I want to be 100% prepared to RP in Illarion with Danghdhog.

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 5:47 pm

It is not impossible but difficult.
This games intention is to make the community (or a larger number of characters) work together to reach thier personal aims.

Especialy Orc-Player could have fun in clans or tribes.

Brendan Mason · Post by **Brendan Mason** » Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:29 pm

dave wrote:to chance the RP concept

The RP concept is what the game is based about. You must RP, not just skill train the whole time, not that I'm implying that's your intention.

Elishan Rosewood · Post by **Elishan Rosewood** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:03 pm

Brendan Mason wrote:
dave wrote:to chance the RP concept
The RP concept is what the game is based about. You must RP, not just skill train the whole time, not that I'm implying that's your intention.

I believe he meant change the RP of his personal character so it wont be so hard for him.

davethebrave371 · Post by **davethebrave371** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 5:01 pm

Elishan Rosewood wrote:
Brendan Mason wrote:
dave wrote:to chance the RP concept
The RP concept is what the game is based about. You must RP, not just skill train the whole time, not that I'm implying that's your intention.

I believe he meant change the RP of his personal character so it wont be so hard for him.

Yeah, I was thinking along the lines of changing the personality from secretive loner to secretive and charismatic. So, openly a very charismatic and talkative person, but still keeping the real him from everyone else.

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 5:05 pm

A charismatic orc? Sounds very contradicting to me.
(Unless you mean charismatic towards other orcs.)

davethebrave371 · Post by **davethebrave371** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 5:22 pm

Keikan Hiru wrote:A charismatic orc? Sounds very contradicting to me.
(Unless you mean charismatic towards other orcs.)

Well, I was thinking charismatic in a particularily devious way. I wanted to be a mentally advanced Orc, but of relatively average physical ability. More of a leader than a fighter (though not adverse to fighting). I'm still toying with some things in my head, but I'll have it down by the time I get to playing, as I'm told that can be quite some time.

Keikan Hiru · Post by **Keikan Hiru** » Tue Mar 30, 2004 6:46 pm

Mentaly advanced orc? Now you are contradicting yourself.

Read: http://www.moonsilver.de/english/races/orks.htm

For more informations of Illarion-orcs.

davethebrave371 · Post by **davethebrave371** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 2:52 am

Keikan Hiru wrote:Mentaly advanced orc? Now you are contradicting yourself.

Read: http://www.moonsilver.de/english/races/orks.htm

For more informations of Illarion-orcs.

I'm aware. I read every page on the site before deciding on a character concept. Are you saying that a rare Elf could not be stupid? If everything is so uniform, how can unique character concepts spring forth? I would attest that if an Orc can be stupid, he or she could just as easily be intelligent, albeit rare. Rarity does not mean impossibility, and impressive intelligence in an Orc would be slightly above average for a Human, would it not? Just because he's mentally advanced for an Orc doesn't mean he's a genius. It just means he's not as primitive as his bretheren.

Arkadia Misella · Post by **Arkadia Misella** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 3:05 am

Well, if I were an Orc and your Orc came along...All you would get out of me is
"Hmmpfpffff....stoopid flowery orc...wan be long ear an hooman...we smash fower head gud!"

Gurik Elvenstar · Post by **Gurik Elvenstar** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 3:42 am

wow ark youd make a good orc :p

Arkadia Misella · Post by **Arkadia Misella** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:40 am

I tried to get an Orc...never was activated though...sent it in right before an account freeze...who knows though..maybe one day I will get one

Cobolt Goregrinder · Post by **Cobolt Goregrinder** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 3:17 pm

davethebrave371 wrote:
Keikan Hiru wrote:Mentaly advanced orc? Now you are contradicting yourself.

Read: http://www.moonsilver.de/english/races/orks.htm

For more informations of Illarion-orcs.
Are you saying that a rare Elf could not be stupid?

An elf has the mental compacity to be smart. If he flunked school, it's because he chose not to use that compacity to learn.

Orc do not have the same mental compacity that elves do. They shouldn't even be compared.

davethebrave371 · Post by **davethebrave371** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 5:08 pm

Arkadia Misella wrote:Well, if I were an Orc and your Orc came along...All you would get out of me is
"Hmmpfpffff....stoopid flowery orc...wan be long ear an hooman...we smash fower head gud!"

And that's your character's perogative! I plan on making a Cleric of Moshran, and one who focuses a little more on the bloody sacrifice side. I think hiding that side in front of non-Moshran worshippers, Elf or Human, Lizardman or Orc, is something that I'll be focusing on. An intelligent Orc doesn't mean a kind, sensitive, flowery Orc. It just means cunning. Willfull. Devious.

From the site:
"...Moshran priests often hide their identities, because they will be attacked by the most righteous people. Evil necromancers call Moshran the "Bone Lord", because he grants them knowledge and power - for a horrible price. Unlike the followers of Cherga, they are not satisfied with immortality - they want power in eternity. Moshran teaches the most worthy and powerful evil ones dark, runeless and unholy rituals...amongst his helpers are always intrigues and plans to overthrow the ones in a higher position..."

That sounds pretty intelligent to me. They don't have to be. They can just be the vicious, bloody war-priests. But I plan on being far more subtle than that.

And remember, even if the Orc doesn't respect or fear Moshran, he at least respects or fears power. And a Cleric of Moshran would no doubt have some powers that the brutish minds of the average Orc wouldn't be able to properly comprehend.

davethebrave371 · Post by **davethebrave371** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 5:15 pm

Cobolt Goregrinder wrote:
davethebrave371 wrote:
Keikan Hiru wrote:Mentaly advanced orc? Now you are contradicting yourself.

Read: http://www.moonsilver.de/english/races/orks.htm

For more informations of Illarion-orcs.
Are you saying that a rare Elf could not be stupid?

An elf has the mental compacity to be smart. If he flunked school, it's because he chose not to use that compacity to learn.

Orc do not have the same mental compacity that elves do. They shouldn't even be compared.

So, even though you could have an Orc with an Essence, Intelligence, Perception and Willpower of say...14 each for example, they still wouldn't be smart? Even with such high mental stats? And say you had an Elf with those stats in the 2-4 region? You're saying they're more intelligent than an Orc with all the 14s? I understand they are only stats, but you devise a character, and then plot out the stats based on your character concept. If my character concept were impossible, you wouldn't be able to raise mental stats on an Orc past 6 or 7. That is not the case, ergo, you can have an intelligent Orc and an unintelligent Elf. It happens. Genetics, luck of the draw, environment, your parents, whatever. Whether nature or nurture, there is always that chance in humans (as represented by stats in this game), and it seems there is a similar chance for Elves and Orcs (with different maximums and minimums, showing racial diversity).

Cobolt Goregrinder · Post by **Cobolt Goregrinder** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 5:56 pm

Those stats are for how well the develop to magic, not how well they learned their ABC's.

Orcs aren't intelligent creatures. They're basically neanderthals.

So yes. I'm saying there can't..Wait, no. I'm saying there shouldn't ever be a smart Orc unless we're talking about Orcish Gods or deities. ((Seeing as I don't own this game I can't they there will not be smart Orcs. But that is contradictory to the Orc name unless we're speaking about Gruumsh or Illiven.))

Magic CAN be learned by an Orc, but it only means they have learned MAGIC, not how to be manipulative.

Gruumsh \m/

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:44 pm

Orc Shamans, orcs that perhaps had somthing to happen to them in their youth that stopped them from being able to fight, so they turned to learn magic instead, it depends on the orc.
www.moonsilver.de it suggests that the orcs in this game are quite smart, but tend to use brute force to reach their means.

Orcs in this game can be what ever the makers wanted them to be, you can't just be biased on other peoples interpretations of orcs, in some books elves are pixie type things that are vilolent, that isn't Illarion elves, so why should orcs be biased towards big strong brutes?

Cobolt Goregrinder · Post by **Cobolt Goregrinder** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:48 pm

Moathia wrote:Orc Shamans, orcs that perhaps had somthing to happen to them in their youth that stopped them from being able to fight, so they turned to learn magic instead, it depends on the orc.
www.moonsilver.de it suggests that the orcs in this game are quite smart, but tend to use brute force to reach their means.

Orcs in this game can be what ever the makers wanted them to be, you can't just be biased on other peoples interpretations of orcs, in some books elves are pixie type things that are vilolent, that isn't Illarion elves, so why should orcs be biased towards big strong brutes?

Did you even take the time to read my entire post?

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:54 pm

Of course I did, and I stated that people shouldn't be biased towards orcs, just because some people portrayed them as stupid doesn't mean everyone should see them like that, of course orcs can be manipulative, why shouldn't they? Before I joined the game I read moonsilver so I could learn how all the races acts, the names of the gods and the history of the game world. The orcs were created by the god of fire, for Moshran, the god of blood and bones to make him feel better after he was horrbily scarred and became evil, he could have easily taught them his ways, and used them to go to war with the other gods.

Cobolt Goregrinder · Post by **Cobolt Goregrinder** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 6:57 pm

Moathia wrote:Of course I did, and I stated that people shouldn't be biased towards orcs, just because some people portrayed them as stupid doesn't mean everyone should see them like that, of course orcs can be manipulative, why shouldn't they? Before I joined the game I read moonsilver so I could learn how all the races acts, the names of the gods and the history of the game world. The orcs were created by the god of fire, for Moshran, the god of blood and bones to make him feel better after he was horrbily scarred and became evil, he could have easily taught them his ways, and used them to go to war with the other gods.

((Seeing as I don't own this game I can't they there will not be smart Orcs. But that is contradictory to the Orc name unless we're speaking about Gruumsh or Illiven.))

You obviously didn't read my entire post.

www.orcs.ca/

WONDERFUL Orcish website that pertains to Orcs except in this game.

Gruumsh \m/

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 7:02 pm

No I did, and I was informing you about orcs in this game.

http://www.moonsilver.de/english/races/orks.htm

Cobolt Goregrinder · Post by **Cobolt Goregrinder** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 7:10 pm

Over the centuries, they have developed a rudimentary writing, consisting of different signs and scratch marks.

This suggests that they're still not THAT intelligent. They barely know how to read and write.

Normally, orcs are not bloodthirsty, but when they fight with other races, their primary war tactics is to cause fear in their enemies.

This in no way is intelligent manipulation.

Orcs don't like to make things complicated. In their mind, it is the best thing if a man says directly what he means, and does not make too many words. That's why they sometimes have problems with elves, who always take their time, and prefer a more metaphoric speech.

Yeah. This doesn't insinuate lots of intelligence either.

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 7:25 pm

the main shaman is the smartest one, and often, he is the real leader of the tribe by manipulating and impressing the chief

Didn't you say somthing about manipulation?

Normally, orcs are not bloodthirsty, but when they fight with other races, their primary war tactics is to cause fear in their enemies. Captives who are too badly wounded to survive, are sometimes brutally killed after the battle, with the surviving captives witnessing it. Then, some of these captives, who show strength and a brave heart, will be given the possibility to escape, to spread the news and that way cause fear in the enemie's hearts

Possibly the smartest battle tactic, as Sun Tsu states "Seek victory before battle" scare the enemy into submission, and manipulate the opponents fear and use it against them.

If a human insults an orc, the orc would normally not immediately grab his sword, he would reply with a short, suiting answer, making a sport of making the other one look stupid. But since the orcish humor appears a little rough compared to a human's, it needs much training for a human to really provoke an orc ( if he does not start to insult the orc's tribe or race ). In the most cases, it's the human who attacks first.

Something that makes sport of making the other look stupid seems pretty clever to me.

Cobolt Goregrinder · Post by **Cobolt Goregrinder** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 7:40 pm

Moathia wrote:
the main shaman is the smartest one, and often, he is the real leader of the tribe by manipulating and impressing the chief
Didn't you say somthing about manipulation?

Normally, orcs are not bloodthirsty, but when they fight with other races, their primary war tactics is to cause fear in their enemies. Captives who are too badly wounded to survive, are sometimes brutally killed after the battle, with the surviving captives witnessing it. Then, some of these captives, who show strength and a brave heart, will be given the possibility to escape, to spread the news and that way cause fear in the enemie's hearts
Possibly the smartest battle tactic, as Sun Tsu states "Seek victory before battle" scare the enemy into submission, and manipulate the opponents fear and use it against them.

If a human insults an orc, the orc would normally not immediately grab his sword, he would reply with a short, suiting answer, making a sport of making the other one look stupid. But since the orcish humor appears a little rough compared to a human's, it needs much training for a human to really provoke an orc ( if he does not start to insult the orc's tribe or race ). In the most cases, it's the human who attacks first.
Something that makes sport of making the other look stupid seems pretty clever to me.

The main shaman is NOT the entire Orc tribe.

.. Every race knows that fighting head on is the best battle tactic. "The best defense is a good offense" Orcs don't know or don't think of any other tactics.

Those with humility keep quiet to make the other seem moronic. This is probably the one trait that has suprised me that Illarion has added to Orcs.

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 8:18 pm

Your right it's not the whole orc tribe and I never said it was, I was just countering this

"Magic CAN be learned by an Orc, but it only means they have learned MAGIC, not how to be manipulative"

Fighting head on is the dumbest battle tactic available as prooved by the English longbow men in the french wars, the french knights would charge at the longbow men, who were standing on higher ground, at the top of a hill, and got massacared because they attacked head on. The rate was 10 knights- 1 longbow man.

The orcs are terrifying their enemies, because the brutally kill their wounded prisoners, that means the enemy wont want to fight, because they could become the next group of prisoners for the slaughter, it is a brilliant battle plan, that means you have to fight fewer enemies, as all but the toughest armies will flee at the rumor of your comming.

Cobolt Goregrinder · Post by **Cobolt Goregrinder** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 8:24 pm

Moathia wrote:Your right it's not the whole orc tribe and I never said it was, I was just countering this

"Magic CAN be learned by an Orc, but it only means they have learned MAGIC, not how to be manipulative"

Fighting head on is the dumbest battle tactic available as prooved by the English longbow men in the french wars, the french knights would charge at the longbow men, who were standing on higher ground, at the top of a hill, and got massacared because they attacked head on. The rate was 10 knights- 1 longbow man.

The orcs are terrifying their enemies, because the brutally kill their wounded prisoners, that means the enemy wont want to fight, because they could become the next group of prisoners for the slaughter, it is a brilliant battle plan, that means you have to fight fewer enemies, as all but the toughest armies will flee at the rumor of your comming.

Right. any one Orc could learn magic. Doesn't make them smart. Just means the main shaman is.

Tell that to Cao Cao when he sent 40% of his forces head on to kill the enemy, only to send the rest around. Either way it proves the Orcs are stupid right there.

Last time I checked, we were desputing how smart Orcs were, not how tactical.

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 8:29 pm

To be able to think like that shows intelligence.

Cao Cao sent 40% of his force as a distraction, he used the classic pincer movement, have a force distract your enemy, while surronding them with the rest, and kill them all, thats not the same as charging your entire forces against an enemy holding higher ground, which is attacking head on.

Cobolt Goregrinder · Post by **Cobolt Goregrinder** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 8:37 pm

Orcs don't pincer. They go straight foreward.

Anyway, Orcs are stupid. that sight doesn't show anything that shows relevant intelligence comparable to the humans of their era except that they don't rush to anger.

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 8:49 pm

Did you even bother to read my post properly, I said Cao Cao made a pincer movement in your example. I said orcs scare their enemies into retreat so they don't have to fight them. That shows intelligence.

Moskher Heszche · Post by **Moskher Heszche** » Wed Mar 31, 2004 9:56 pm

What she's getting at is that orcs are simple creatures with complex thought. They aren't book-learned. They live in rough environments and, as a result, learn things the hard way. They aren't sophisticated by any means, but just as capable as all other races.

They can create tools, but you can be sure that those tools wouldn't have the design or a dwarven axe or the beauty of an elven sword.

When it mentions their simple language, it doesn't say anything about their ability to read and write. Rather, that says that they have their own language, although it is simple. A creature has to be pretty smart to come up with that. Even an ape can make very simple tools, but no other creature but man that we've discovered have their own language.

Orcs may, on average, be not that bright in when compared to men, but not any more than, say, a borderline retarded man. They're capable of understanding, of creating tools, of doing certain kinds of work, but you wouldn't expect them to write sonnets.