The Jail

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 5:31 am

The jail we have in illarion right now is something that definitely could use some major changes. In its current state it is horribly unrealistic, detrimental to roleplay, and much abused.

Let us take a look at our jail:
1. There are no guards to guard the jail.
2. There is no possibility of escape from the jail.
3. All actions except walking are turned off in the jail.
4. Criminals are not taken their under guard, but instead are "magically transported" with the use of a technical function.
5. It is used as the one and only punishment for all criminals.

The above is only a small number of problems with the jail we have now.

Let us now take a look at what a medieval jail would be like:
1. Guards were stationed everywhere.
2. Jail breaks happened all the time.
3. Brawling and all manners of behavior you would expect in a jail happened as a matter of course.
4. Criminals were paraded through the streets under guard to be taunted on their way to jail.
5. Jail was expensive and time consuming thus it was rarely used except for political/special prisoners. Capital punishment was the common punishment for thieves and murderers which made up the majority of the criminals.

As you can see vast unrealistic differences exist between the jail we have now and what a medieval jail was like. I propose the following changes:
1. The jail is made with an entrance/exit that would have to be guarded when their are prisoners in the jail. If there is such an extreme desire for a certain criminal to be jailed then effort and roleplay should be required.
2. The technical function which allows certain players to easily log in and "magically transport" criminals into the jail should be taken away since it is abused too much and takes away a lot of possible good roleplay.
3. The jail should not have OOC/technical restrictions since it is supposed to be a punishment for IC crimes. It should be changed to just a building without the technical limitations that make it so that the only action that can be done is walking.

The jail was originally created to be a punishment for IC crimes and to add to the realism of illarion. What it has evolved into is a gross "institution" with little roleplay and realism that is abused.

I am not against a realistic medieval jail that enhances roleplay.
I am against a "jail" that belongs in 21st century science fiction.

-Elaralith

Anlan Erson · Post by **Anlan Erson** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:15 am

She is right. I mean come on people No Jail Breaks? I mean come on if there is a jail there would be jail breaks and so many more things that would better rp. But just being transported there ya right. I mean if you had to walk the prisoner to the jail there would be so many different things that could happen. Ambushes and the like. In my mind that would be a whole lot funner than just WOW your in Jail

Gigasha · Post by **Gigasha** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 7:34 am

shouldn't this be in the proposals forum?

Anyway, I do agree...somewhat. There would have to be locks to be picked which in turn, necessitates a thieving skill, of which we have none. You could try hacking the dorr down, but in Illarion, you know it's no "normal" door....etc.etc.etc.....
Gig's player

Zahra Fiarai · Post by **Zahra Fiarai** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 7:41 am

Normally when someone is jailed, most of their belongings are taken away, but right now there is no way to get items off of another player. Just another point to consider.

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 7:43 am

Only problem is, when capital punishment is issued, the person is killed and never comes back.....that poses a small problem in Illarion. Second, killing someone will make them loose skill, sitting in a jail doesn't do this. Lock picking, breakable doors, ect. would be abused undoubtedly. Guards are "there" just not literally there, not to mention the skeletons provide a type of guard. Literal guards would only target the people in jail? Maybe you should how you might think these things work in detail. Like if you kill guards you get "popularity" or some such making them attack you if you get too close to them or something or if you are killed by a guard you are automatically transported to jail (which I think is the best option).

Fedaykin · Post by **Fedaykin** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 7:51 am

I couldn't Agree with Elaralith because of the following reasons:

1. The jail is made with an entrance/exit that would have to be guarded when their are prisoners in the jail. If there is such an extreme desire for a certain criminal to be jailed then effort and roleplay should be required.

Do you want to play a guardist who could do nothing than standing stupid around? And NPC guards couldn't improve the RP.

2. The technical function which allows certain players to easily log in and "magically transport" criminals into the jail should be taken away since it is abused too much and takes away a lot of possible good roleplay.

There is no technically way to tie someone up. You couldn't take him away his weapons and armor.
If the other dont want to play the imprisonment the only way ist to teleport him. You know our superheroes who feel no pain and fight to death when 10 guards around them and his hands are tied up.

3. The jail should not have OOC/technical restrictions since it is supposed to be a punishment for IC crimes. It should be changed to just a building without the technical limitations that make it so that the only action that can be done is walking.

Same problem, you couldn't take away the armor and weapons of other persons. And nobody has his weapons and armor in a prison.

[/quote]

Anlan Erson · Post by **Anlan Erson** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 8:08 am

I actually like the idea of NPC guards. Maybe you could program them with a few phrases. So If someone tries to escape they yell something. Also they would have to be strong so few could really escape. Just an idea

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 8:23 am

Fedaykin wrote:Do you want to play a guardist who could do nothing than standing stupid around?

Playing a guard that guards prisoners is not "stupid". It is an opportunity for some good roleplay to occur. Think about it.
Guard taunting prisoner, prisoner trying to get past guard, prisoner trying to convince guard to help them escape. These are just some examples of possible rolepaly activities that would make the game much more interesting.

Fedaykin wrote:There is no technically way to tie someone up. You couldn't take him away his weapons and armor.
If the other dont want to play the imprisonment the only way ist to teleport him. You know our superheroes who feel no pain and fight to death when 10 guards around them and his hands are tied up.

Naturally, my proposals were for the future...when something like knocking someone unconscious is possible. Knocking people unconscious will come soon I believe and for now it is always a possibility for good roleplayers to roleplay this. Nevertheless the "magical teleporting" is poor roleplay and should not continue. The "superheroes" you talk about are bad roleplayers and either don't belong in illarion or need to learn.

Fedaykin wrote:And nobody has his weapons and armor in a prison.

Are you sure about this? Have you never heard of sneaky people slipping weapons past the guards? That is how jail breaks happen afterall. It is realistic for some prisoners to have weapons and armor in prison because no guard search can be perfect and prisoners will always be finding ways to get things past the guards.

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 8:23 am

You realise that that sort of thing is not suppoted by the current client yes? And you do realise it would take months of programming to do that yes? We have to go by whats suppoted by the client.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 8:27 am

Moathia wrote:You realise that that sort of thing is not suppoted by the current client yes? And you do realise it would take months of programming to do that yes? We have to go by whats suppoted by the client.

You realize that such a thing as roleplay exists yes? And you do realize this game is made up of roleplay yes? We have to go by good roleplaying not just on "what is supported by the client".

Adano Eles · Post by **Adano Eles** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 8:28 am

It's plain impossible to guard the prison 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
There will always be times when the prison is unguarded and the prisoners can walk away freely. Hence there has to be some technical restriction to keep people from just walking away when noone is there to watch over them.

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 8:30 am

@Adano It is realistic for times when prisoners are not watched. It is also realistic that this is the time prisoners choose to escape and have jail breaks.

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 8:30 am

Yes, I do Elaralith, but the role play is restricted to with in what the client supports, the client does not support disarming people and tieing them up to go to jail, so it can't happen, if someone paralises you, they move you a square then you start casting again, good or bad roleplay can't help this, a mass muderer can't just walk into town, and not get caught and throw in jail, and why can't the gaurds find you when you sleep?

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 8:31 am

@Moathia Read my response to Fedaykin.

Adano Eles · Post by **Adano Eles** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 8:32 am

It's not realistic that there are no guards for several hours, and with the time system introduced even maybe Illarion days. And with all prisoners gone every morning because there was no guard over the night the prison loses its point.
Remember that there are also those players who would not use these possibilities for RP issues, but just to get an advantage for their char.

Moathia · Post by **Moathia** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 8:36 am

That was some good editing Elaralith, but there i see know reason why the guards can't throw you in jail when your character falls asleep, you log out in town, and the only reason for that is falling asleep, (more forced client role play) and then someone reports you, the guards come and take you to jail, I see no flaw in that rp.

Mishrack · Post by **Mishrack** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 8:45 am

2. Jail breaks happened all the time.

Might I just add that if we're talking medieval times, prisoners would usually be chained to a wall behind a solid wooden door and have no window. How could you possibly escape from that?

Arkadia Misella · Post by **Arkadia Misella** » Wed Nov 05, 2003 8:58 am

Mishrack is right....so what I say is everytime someone goes to jail you throw them in there and take away their walking privelages and say they are chained to the wall, and then no human guards would be needed becuase the prisoners could roleplay that there are guards outside that they cannot see and that are not allowed to speak to prisoners. Wallaaa....problem solved.

Hermie · Post by **Hermie** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 2:54 am

On the small note of being 'teleported' to the castle, see it as you were knocked unconscious and you awake in jail perhaps? Therefore if someone willingly accepts to go to jail they could be escorted there and then put into the jail.

As for escaping from jail, even if people are chained to the wall there is still a chance of escape as long as there is someone to rescue them. I can understand chains being a problem to an average mortal, but I am sure there are more intricate ways of breaking bonds, afterall, Illarion is a world of Fantasy.

Edit: Second paragraph added
Edit 2: <--These little edit things added

Anlan Erson · Post by **Anlan Erson** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 3:00 am

Yes but what if somebody fought back? Im guessing that they would still be teleported even though they are still swinging a sword. And come on would that really happen?

Fedaykin · Post by **Fedaykin** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 7:14 am

Anlan Erson wrote:Yes but what if somebody fought back? Im guessing that they would still be teleported even though they are still swinging a sword. And come on would that really happen?

Would you swing a sword if 3 or 4 heavy armored guards around you, and you know that you would die if you attack them?

the most Chars in Illa don't feel pain, and the death is something normal to them. Would that really happen?

Elaralith · Post by **Elaralith** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 9:50 am

@Adano NPC guards could come into play here as was mentioned. NPC guards that can be killed... But again if there is such an extreme desire for a certain character to be imprisoned then there should be a lot of effort and roleplay from the players that play the characters that really want that particular character to be imprisoned.

@Mishrack How could you indeed? There are such things as rusty chains, rotten wood, tunneling, outside help. No jail ever created has been "inescapable" as is the case with the jail we have now in illarion.

@Fedaykin Has there ever been many "heavily armed guards" as you say surrounding a criminal so that they can be teleported? No, this has never happened. All that has ever happened in imprisonings is a player who has the ability to imprison logs in with his/her character and uses a technical function that immediately "magically transports" the subject to a prison that is devoid of roleplay. Would this really happen? No, not in a realistic fantasy medieval setting, but yes it is happening unfortunately.

Adano Eles · Post by **Adano Eles** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 10:36 am

The current prison isn't unescapeable. At least two people did already escape. Of course you can't escape witout help from the game staff, but if you could then I fear escapes would become way to common.

You have a point that criminals shouldn't just be teleported into prison, and it is not always like that. Aragon for example even waited for Vobe to walk into town before catching him instead of just teleporting him from his hideout in Northerot. But as we - currently - have no better way to deal with such poor roleplayers who would just find a way not to be caught even by an army of guards the possibility should remain.

Mishrack · Post by **Mishrack** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 12:49 pm

@Elararith - I was emphesizing the point that jail breaks were not as common as your post would lead to think. Sure, there were some that escaped but they were by far an extreme minority.

Rusty chains - yes, but not if the guards really dont want you to escape.

Rotten wood - ditto. and for both points, you'd usually have to fight and find your way through maze like corridors with armed guards.

Tunneling - quite hard without proper tools.

Outside help - by far the most common reason for escape. but you'd need some VERY good friends.

Caranthir the great · Post by **Caranthir the great** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 1:17 pm

Escapes, yes.. but these should ALWAYS (read: Always) be done with the help and blessing of the gamemasters. Otherwise they would be simply too common.
Alas, your Idea of 'Must' guarding of prisoners by other players sounds as dumb as it is. Gate, anyone? Perhaps someone could pick the gate(s) open, but that becomes a bit more tricky if you are chained to the wall from your limbs and neck, in a pitch black room crawling with rats and other nasty things.

As Grobul already stated, there is no way of permanently getting rid of murderers and similiarities, not to mention cutting their limbs off. That would be medieval AND realistic, but due to some well understandable reasons out of our list of options. So for now, you'll just have to comply with your nice little jail.

Anlan Erson · Post by **Anlan Erson** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 1:53 pm

@Fedaykin If I planned on my character being a crazed hobbit warrior I probable would attack but since I dont no. But some would rather fight and have the chance to die then just be taken away.

Anlan Erson · Post by **Anlan Erson** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 2:03 pm

To both Mishrack and Caranthir. Givving the ability to escape without the GM's is a good idea. But your similiar arguements are flawed. Give the ability to escape but dont make it
1. Easy to even find out how to escape.
2. East to escape even if you know how.

Make it hard I mean extremely hard to get out. But give the chance none the less to be able to do it without a GM

Gro'bul · Post by **Gro'bul** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 7:47 pm

If you have a good enough reason with enough help from other players a gm would probobly help you. I don't see the necessity of not needing a gm.

Faramier · Post by **Faramier** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 8:35 pm

You know the easy solution is to be good and not get jailed, then you dont need to worry about it.

Caranthir the great · Post by **Caranthir the great** » Thu Nov 06, 2003 8:43 pm

I concur.
As the saying goes:
'Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.'

The jailtime isn't supposed to be 'fun', if you ask me.
It's supposed to be jail, even though there could be somekind of work to do (Smashing stones?) available.