Betrachtungen zum Rüstungsschmieden und zum Schmieden

Everything about Illarion that fits nowhere else. / Alles über Illarion was inhaltlich in kein anderes Board passt.

Moderator: Gamemasters

User avatar
GolfLima
Posts: 1472
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:06 pm
Location: hier und dort

Betrachtungen zum Rüstungsschmieden und zum Schmieden

Post by GolfLima »

Rüstungsschmieden (lvl 100):
116 Items
30 Items mit Merinium (ab lvl 80) =25,9%
ab lvl 80 nur noch Merinium Items
10 Items mit reinen Elementen (alle lvl 100) =8,6%
5 Erde, 2 Wasser, 1 Luft, 1 Feuer, 1 Geist

Schmieden (lvl 97):
67 Items
24 Items mit Merinium (ab lvl 60) = 35,8% - ...%
ab lvl 70 nur noch Merinim Items
8 Items mit reinen Elementen (ab lvl 90) = 11,9% - ...%
0 Erde, 2 Wasser, 3 Luft, 3 Feuer, 0 Geist
möglicherweise noch mehr weitere Waffen mit Elementen (lvl100)

i) beim Vergleich beider Handwerke fällt auf, das man beim Schmieden deutlich eher mit Merinium arbeiten kann & sogar muß, was wiederum bedeutet das man deutlich mehr Zeit, Ressourcen und Geld investieren muß um Schmieden zu meistern
ii) beim Schmieden gibt es ab lvl 90 nur noch Items welche reine Elemente benötigen, beim Rüstungsschmieden benötigen nur lvl 100 Items diese Art seltenen Rohstoff
iii) weiterhin wird beim Rüstungsschmieden vorwiegend reine Erde benötigt, welche m.E. im Spiel relativ häufig vorkommt (auf jeden Fall im Verhältnis zu den anderen reinen Elementen) und auch recht einfach zu erhalten ist
iv) damit ist das Erlangen der „Vollkommenheit“ (lvl 100) der Fähigkeit Rüstungssschmieden deutlich einfacher und mit geringerem Aufwand zu erreichen als im Bereich Schmieden
v) es gibt mindestens 8 Waffen (Schmieden) ohne reine Elemente die teurer als 8 Rüstungen (Teile) mit reinen Elementen sind
vi) es gibt mindestens 7 Waffen (Schmieden) die gleich teuer oder teurer als die 3. & 4. Rüstungen sind
vii) unter den 12 teuersten Dingen sind jetzt schon 8 Waffen (alle mit reinen Elementen) aber 2 Rüstungsteile ohne reine Elemente
viii) die lvl95 Waffe ist teurer als alle Rüstungsteile (es ist davon auszugehen das lvl 100 Waffen noch teurer sind)
ix) i.A. sind Rüstungsteile deutlich günstiger zu erwerben als Waffen, was es für einen Rüstungsschmied wieder schwieriger macht davon zu leben
x)

m.E. Bedürfen Rüstungsschmieden und Schmieden einer gewissen Angleichung, da sonst das Schmieden gegenüber Rüstungsschmieden beim Erlernen deutlich benachteiligt ist


((
p.s. 1: wenn es jemand übersetzen möchte und kann, nur zu und Danke!
p.s. 2: wenn dieses Thema nicht hierher gehört, dann bitte in das passende Forum verschieben, danke
))
User avatar
Athlon
Posts: 112
Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2016 8:11 pm

Re: Betrachtungen zum Rüstungsschmieden und zum Schmieden

Post by Athlon »

Hast ein paar gute Punkte angeführt , die ich gerne ergänzen möchte .

1. Merinium ist wenn die Mine mal frei ist sehr selten .Der Meriniumpreis liegt gerade bei 100 Goldstücken für 400 Brocken
nicht Barren .
2. Rüstungen werden so gut wie nicht gebraucht , außer ein neuer läuft dir in die Arme .
Ich schmiede wenn es wirklich hoch kommt einen kompletten Satz im echten Monat .
Jeder der eine hat richtet sie lieber bevor er eine neue kauft .
3. Vom Handwerk leben egal ob du Schmied oder Rüstungsschmieden wählst kannste nicht
außer du machst alles was du dazu noch brauchst selber .
Das führt wieder zur Eier legenden Wollmilchsau , jeder macht alles und Handeln ist damit vorbei .
Wer verkauft den schon Erze oder Kohle oder Elemente , keiner jeder behält das was er findet selber .

Verkauft wird nur das was keiner braucht , aber so war es schon seit ich denken kann im Spiel ;)
User avatar
Tialdin
Posts: 522
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2001 10:59 pm
Location: Silberbrand

Re: Betrachtungen zum Rüstungsschmieden und zum Schmieden

Post by Tialdin »

Ich hab mit das mit dem Schmieden gerade angeschaut, die Auswahl an Waffen, die reine Elemente verbrauchen ist sehr groß.

Ich würde Vorschlagen, das "Merinium-Beschichtetes Schwert" Stufe 90
ohne reines Element herstellbar zu machen und stattdessen den Meriniumanteil um 2 zu erhöhren und 1 Diamantstaub hinzu zu fügen. (Damit wäre steigern auch ohne Elemente wieder möglich.)

Gleichzeitig könnte die Meriniumbeschichtete Axt (mit Element) auf Stufe 95 erhöht werden, um die Logik bei zu behalten.

Auch würde ich Vorschlagen bei der magischen Zwergenaxt (Level 100) reine Erde als Element zu nehmen, das ist einfach zwergischer.
User avatar
Estralis Seborian
Posts: 12308
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:14 pm
Location: Sir Postalot
Contact:

Re: Betrachtungen zum Rüstungsschmieden und zum Schmieden

Post by Estralis Seborian »

Der Zustrom von Ressourcen wird in naher Zukunft neu geregelt. Hinsichtlich der Hanwerksrezepte ist von meiner Seite derzeit keine weitere Überarbeitung geplant.
User avatar
Hew Keenaxe
Posts: 1012
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Betrachtungen zum Rüstungsschmieden und zum Schmieden

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

I would add to this post the mining of the ores.
Both Cadomyr and Galmair have both coal and iron mines. I would suggest that those mines produce NO silver or gold.
The glittering mine? Is that its name? Outside of Hemptie produce silver and gold but NO Merinium.
Merinium should only be produced at the Pauldrin island mine. The most remote and dangerous to access. This is where such a valuable and rare item should be found. Also maybe the price of its ore should be adjusted to fit its difficulty.
User avatar
Lia
Posts: 909
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:12 pm

Re: Betrachtungen zum Rüstungsschmieden und zum Schmieden

Post by Lia »

Silk and heartwood are also rare items.

I think the work to change all this is in no relation to the point of the whole.
User avatar
Hew Keenaxe
Posts: 1012
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Betrachtungen zum Rüstungsschmieden und zum Schmieden

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

Lia wrote:Silk and heartwood are also rare items.

I think the work to change all this is in no relation to the point of the whole.
And I think it is.

Those other items should only be found in remote, dangerous places. That is what makes them rare and valuable.
User avatar
Tialdin
Posts: 522
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2001 10:59 pm
Location: Silberbrand

Re: Betrachtungen zum Rüstungsschmieden und zum Schmieden

Post by Tialdin »

User avatar
Hew Keenaxe
Posts: 1012
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Betrachtungen zum Rüstungsschmieden und zum Schmieden

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

Worst argument ever. I cant access Mantis. Post it here.
User avatar
nathi
Posts: 582
Joined: Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:10 pm
Contact:

Re: Betrachtungen zum Rüstungsschmieden und zum Schmieden

Post by nathi »

Hew Keenaxe wrote:
Lia wrote:Silk and heartwood are also rare items.

I think the work to change all this is in no relation to the point of the whole.
And I think it is.

Those other items should only be found in remote, dangerous places. That is what makes them rare and valuable.
I support this. These items should not be to easy to find.

lg nathi
User avatar
Lia
Posts: 909
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:12 pm

Re: Betrachtungen zum Rüstungsschmieden und zum Schmieden

Post by Lia »

They are now rare. They can not be cultivated in masses. Make them even rarer, and half of all craftsmen abandon their craft. Higher items (and I do not mean 90 and 100) almost all need a rare item.
User avatar
Hew Keenaxe
Posts: 1012
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Betrachtungen zum Rüstungsschmieden und zum Schmieden

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

Rare should be rare, not just from the chance to it giving it you, but do to its location and danger involved. That will make them rare. Just power gaming a tree inside your town, does not make it rare.
User avatar
Lia
Posts: 909
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:12 pm

Re: Betrachtungen zum Rüstungsschmieden und zum Schmieden

Post by Lia »

rare means That there are very few of them, or they are not found in masses. Not that they must be on a danger location.
User avatar
Hew Keenaxe
Posts: 1012
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Betrachtungen zum Rüstungsschmieden und zum Schmieden

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

But they should be. It should cost to get these few valuable resources. And if you are not capable to get them, that is why they are valuable. You have to trade, with others in the game, you know, interact with others. Not all should be able to do all.
User avatar
Lia
Posts: 909
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:12 pm

Re: Betrachtungen zum Rüstungsschmieden und zum Schmieden

Post by Lia »

it cost...it cost a lot of time. i need days! to become enough for one! item. rare item not the problem that not much people trade with each other. I do it with all items i need.
User avatar
Hew Keenaxe
Posts: 1012
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Betrachtungen zum Rüstungsschmieden und zum Schmieden

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

Sorry, but this is a co-op RP game. You are never supposed to be able to do it all. And what you cant do, there are some that can. I can't make a dress, but can mine ore... We trade. And the rare items in this game , need to be rare and hard to get. It is all set up as random now, even a simple whoever can get a rare element, maybe that is good, but a rare item that can be produced? If I hit enough rocks, I will get one? I think it should be a bit harder. You have to get to that mine, or that tree, and I still dont know where silk comes from, but that area, to even have that chance. That make it rare and valuable.
User avatar
Lia
Posts: 909
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:12 pm

Re: Betrachtungen zum Rüstungsschmieden und zum Schmieden

Post by Lia »

look to Illa before the vbu. the rar item like Merinium was not really needet for a lot of item. And the peoples trade with each other. So the rare item not the problem from this matter
User avatar
Hew Keenaxe
Posts: 1012
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Betrachtungen zum Rüstungsschmieden und zum Schmieden

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

But this is Post VBU, and things have changed.
User avatar
Lia
Posts: 909
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 10:12 pm

Re: Betrachtungen zum Rüstungsschmieden und zum Schmieden

Post by Lia »

Lia wrote:the rare item not the problem from this matter
User avatar
Katharina Brightrim
Cadomyr
Posts: 956
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:13 pm
Location: Göttingen

Re: Betrachtungen zum Rüstungsschmieden und zum Schmieden

Post by Katharina Brightrim »

I want to add that silk is way TOO rare since it's needed in around the half of the recepies. You even need silk for lvl 20 shirts as far as I know.
User avatar
Hew Keenaxe
Posts: 1012
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Betrachtungen zum Rüstungsschmieden und zum Schmieden

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

I have some Heartwood, and it was easy to get. I sure have merinium, also easy to get, silk I have not got, I dont know how easy it is to get. But none of them should be easy. They should be the rare items, that means, they should be hard to get. Not just a random chance, but you actually have to take a chance to get them. Put them all in far of, an not so nice places to have a chance to get them.
User avatar
Estralis Seborian
Posts: 12308
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 9:14 pm
Location: Sir Postalot
Contact:

Re: Betrachtungen zum Rüstungsschmieden und zum Schmieden

Post by Estralis Seborian »

Katharina Ross wrote:You even need silk for lvl 20 shirts as far as I know.
Nope. That's not correct.

The chance and rate of finding silk/heartwood/merinium is not final and will change.
User avatar
GolfLima
Posts: 1472
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:06 pm
Location: hier und dort

Re: Betrachtungen zum Rüstungsschmieden und zum Schmieden

Post by GolfLima »

Hew Keenaxe wrote:Those other items should only be found in remote, dangerous places. That is what makes them rare and valuable.
:arrow:
1) think this kills most of the crafts
- the argument rare things should only be found at dangerous places will exclude a lot of crafters from gathering them (not all crafters are also master fighters) and at the moment i dont know any fighter who is in need of high level things and who is willing to buy them -> how should a crafter than earn their coins
2) rare items should be rare - that can also mean lower the chance to find them or make the way to the get them longer ... (i think there are more ways than put themat dangerous places) :arrow: keep in mind a tailor NEED silk for all things made fom lvl70 and above (you need to give new players a chance to master a craft lvl100)
3) my observation was an imbalance when trying to master armourer or smithing (in my eyes becoming a master armourer ist much easier than a smith, and my first impression is that become a master tailor is much more difficult than become a smith) --> this imbalance should bemade smaller :arrow: i have made NO proposal which this can be solved
User avatar
GolfLima
Posts: 1472
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:06 pm
Location: hier und dort

Re: Betrachtungen zum Rüstungsschmieden und zum Schmieden

Post by GolfLima »

Katharina Ross wrote:You even need silk for lvl 20 shirts as far as I know.
:arrow:

1) as i know the first items with silk is at lvl40
2) all items from lvl70 or above NEED silk - there is NO item without silk
Last edited by GolfLima on Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
GolfLima
Posts: 1472
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:06 pm
Location: hier und dort

Re: Betrachtungen zum Rüstungsschmieden und zum Schmieden

Post by GolfLima »

Hew Keenaxe wrote:I sure have merinium, also easy to get
:arrow:
1) my Char is not such a good fighter than you´rs - so for him it is not easy to get Merinium
2) if the "pauldron mine" would be the only place for Merinium my char would never get some (dont push a lot of crafter players to change their charakters to fighters wich will sometimes also craft)
User avatar
Hew Keenaxe
Posts: 1012
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Betrachtungen zum Rüstungsschmieden und zum Schmieden

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

There is no downside to this proposal, If I have to fight to gain one bit of what you want, can you? Are you willing to? maybe, or not. We all shouldnt be able to do it all. So you have to trade with me, is that bad? In this RP game, I think not.I can do things you cant, you can do things I cant, so we trade. Make those rare things hard, make them so only the best can get them. That will make them rare. Then, make them needed to do anything of value. I cant do my job, unless you do yours. It builds trade. It builds RP.
User avatar
GolfLima
Posts: 1472
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 3:06 pm
Location: hier und dort

Re: Betrachtungen zum Rüstungsschmieden und zum Schmieden

Post by GolfLima »

Hew Keenaxe wrote:I cant do my job, unless you do yours. It builds trade. It builds RP.
:arrow: my char often offers high level armor or weapons (most of them without needing elements to produce them) --> but NO ONE wants to buy them --> so dont tell my i should make my job
User avatar
Katharina Brightrim
Cadomyr
Posts: 956
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 8:13 pm
Location: Göttingen

Re: Betrachtungen zum Rüstungsschmieden und zum Schmieden

Post by Katharina Brightrim »

Estralis Seborian wrote:
Katharina Ross wrote:You even need silk for lvl 20 shirts as far as I know.
Nope. That's not correct.

The chance and rate of finding silk/heartwood/merinium is not final and will change.
Oh, then I remembered wrong, sorry :D
Drugar Stonesmasher
Posts: 222
Joined: Wed Feb 28, 2001 8:55 am

Re: Betrachtungen zum Rüstungsschmieden und zum Schmieden

Post by Drugar Stonesmasher »

Hew Keenaxe wrote:There is no downside to this proposal, If I have to fight to gain one bit of what you want, can you? Are you willing to? maybe, or not. We all shouldnt be able to do it all. So you have to trade with me, is that bad? In this RP game, I think not.I can do things you cant, you can do things I cant, so we trade. Make those rare things hard, make them so only the best can get them. That will make them rare. Then, make them needed to do anything of value. I cant do my job, unless you do yours. It builds trade. It builds RP.

Hew, Elements are the "Rare" Ingredient.
Merinium etc. are semirare, which is also the case actually. ( i believe it takes at least 100 hours of mining only, to get enough Merinium to reach a top grade in smithing)

Making them rare with the current recipes will have exactly one effect:

No new player will ever be able to reach top levels in crafting, while all existing ones can lay back.
Also all owning Merinium Stock and all such weapons can well lay back.

What would have to be done in that case? Remove all Merinium and Merinium containing items from the game and set back all skill levels to a level, that is reachable without merinium. (Imho)
User avatar
Hew Keenaxe
Posts: 1012
Joined: Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:47 am

Re: Betrachtungen zum Rüstungsschmieden und zum Schmieden

Post by Hew Keenaxe »

Drugar Stonesmasher wrote:
Hew Keenaxe wrote:There is no downside to this proposal, If I have to fight to gain one bit of what you want, can you? Are you willing to? maybe, or not. We all shouldnt be able to do it all. So you have to trade with me, is that bad? In this RP game, I think not.I can do things you cant, you can do things I cant, so we trade. Make those rare things hard, make them so only the best can get them. That will make them rare. Then, make them needed to do anything of value. I cant do my job, unless you do yours. It builds trade. It builds RP.

Hew, Elements are the "Rare" Ingredient.
Merinium etc. are semirare, which is also the case actually. ( i believe it takes at least 100 hours of mining only, to get enough Merinium to reach a top grade in smithing)

Making them rare with the current recipes will have exactly one effect:

No new player will ever be able to reach top levels in crafting, while all existing ones can lay back.
Also all owning Merinium Stock and all such weapons can well lay back.

What would have to be done in that case? Remove all Merinium and Merinium containing items from the game and set back all skill levels to a level, that is reachable without merinium. (Imho)
No, you just trade for them, like I have to do even for food. If you want something you cant get, you trade. And yes you pay the price. Then that price gets passed down. It drives economics.
Quit trying to be the one that can do everything.
Post Reply