Discussion: Guilds - why these can't survive

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Post by Karrock » Sat Apr 21, 2018 5:06 pm

Discussion: Guilds - why these can't survive

After my personal several attempts to create Guilds or expereinces of being a member of other guilds leaded and managed by others and observing those existed through a some time, I started considering what a main reason might be why those projects each short time tended to the end of the existance.

Often the visible reasons were: lack of players, low enthusiasm after a time, disappering of the leader

Important to observe, that in each organized structure of people with same sense of target (like business, political party or association to serve specifical people in need, etc.) in the real world all theorists of the authoritism or the power always divide skills of power to two sections: Managing and Leadership.

In the simple words I can explain management as skill of creating the processes of how activity of a group should work.

For Illarion we can describe this as knowledge how to write official posts at the RP-forum, how to create friendly rules, how to set or define together goal/s of the group, or how to build structures of guild and how to create specifical system for rewards for the members for their activity or punishment for work against in-guild rules or its members, specifical laws, regulations etc.).

This is simply to notice, that something important is lacking here.

Second skill of the power is Leadership. Level of skill shows up in sudden situations, that no theoretical system can predict. The life. Leader has to know how to engage people to work together for setted goal/s, by operating emotions of the workers/followers. Actually in Illarion seems it's easier to imagine, that skill Leadership here is much more important, than creating a specifical system, that managers create. Enforced RP Game like Illarion is engage people to play, because those emotions game can offer. Most because people don't log to the game, because of the profit they wish to get into their wallets the Leadership is more important, while in the real life their values are rather equal.

Most of the people here I suppose would describe this situation as better, because no one want to treat game like a job. This is logical and okay. The problem is within that, the Managament skill is not important because its boring, but because its not useful. Of course we read official posts in the RP-forum, but their task is to hit the emotions of the people and rather less to obtain defined goal/s (except the one to attract people to that guild). Their main role is not to improve quality of the together work/act, because this would be useless and would only disattract people.

Actually its also easy to observe, that only guilds or group exist only when the guild has at least some power in the management of the town its exist (Guild can create the rules on which sudden emotions and temporary actions have no push). All existing guilds fullfil this requirement: Bearers of the Fire and Cadomyrian Noble Houses. All others are forced to disappear. I'm sure if the Bearers of the Fire would lose their power in the town, this guild could fall apart like all before them.

I am not against those groups above and their existance nor if their rule (because this should be in the game matter). The problem I see is within, that actually systems of the getting materials and static tools are not encouraging people to create new groups and causes stagnation in the game, that makes people to not log in, because if they are not gm-ranked in the town they have no motivations to play. They can get lvls, but after reach last wanted skill, common player loses interesting to play, even if says this was not even a reason.
Some people say: if they played only for lvls they were no roleplayers. This opinion is the core why people don't play. Those people played according to the Rules, never breaking immersion and had interesting characters, those strong psychical structure they cared. Also people as reason give different things, that have no logical causes why this low interesting to play happens. They deny real reasons, because they don't want to make an effort to realize the serious effects of those elements/mechanisms acts. And those acts are like fudament of the house (it can't be saw, because its under the ground).

If the official static tool would give possibility to create items to only let say lower level (e.g 50) or lower quality (e.g. very good), when making better would be limited to static tools buyable for specifical npc (those tools would need repair), that I am sure much more engage people to form own guild (if people drop that idea of "lets build building/area/place in the town for all for free") and raise online up, at least among old players who stopped to play, because this can give them common, together goal and new experiences they lack from the current situation.

And if the materials can have own limits (those should restore after longer time than now; e.g. once ig month or just once ig day), that can also stimulate economy, create the conflicts between towns or citizens of a same town, and also creates together actions between characters like guilds for workers or crafters who fight against not registered workers/crafters or against citizens of different towns who steal their resources. I see many posibilities to write a new stories if this system would be placed.

Honestly killing a computer monsters at Letma or any different place is boring after some time, a fun only for the few who control rest people. I am sure those who are still treated like just a mob if they get a chance they can manage themselfes alone better than now (without this "shutting up" system of no goals for character. and without "let's create everything for everyone for free!").


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Post by Achae Eanstray » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:01 pm

Re: Discussion: Guilds - why these can't survive

Moved to proposals since I am assuming this is a post regarding changing guilds and not so much a generalized complaint. Positive contributions are appreciated.


Found a few links.. guilds and guild leaders that can be read...
https://www.engadget.com/2014/02/20/the ... ld-leader/



Nothing official...just a random discussion that might be of interest:

https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/6 ... ties_of_a/

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Post by Dantagon Marescot » Sat Apr 21, 2018 6:19 pm

Re: Discussion: Guilds - why these can't survive

Looks like a general discussion topic to me.

Why guilds can't survive? Limited number of people and even more so people who aren't willing to stick it out. People come, people play, people join guilds, and then people disappear and any forward momentum ig is lost. I see a lot of people start guilds, run them for a month or two, get a few members, not really do any work, and then vanish for 3 months. The guild just lost their leadership and therefore dies because no one is going to step in and take up the leaders mantle.

You can't keep forward momentum or interesting plot ig if you disappear. You can't butt heads with another guild if you start some interesting friction and then vanish from the game. I keep hearing about all these group that want to overthrow this person or that organization, but then 3 months later they have some kind of friction and quit. All progress is then gone.

If you want something to happen with a guild to make things interesting, realize that it is going to require playing the long game. You guild may not be fully recognized in 3 months, or 6. It may take a full year of hard and steady work. And with limited people ig right now, it may mean your guild is 2 active people and 5 inactive. But over time, it will grow. Just don't expect it to grow tomorrow.

At the same time, I also apologize for my recent absence from ig. Been a busy spring and it has been a bad year for illnesses so far. Currently getting over another one which has knocked me out for most of this week.

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Post by Karrock » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:10 am

Re: Discussion: Guilds - why these can't survive

First (To Achae): This is not any proposal, but proposal made by me at the end of this topic, that is constructed mainly in scientific way (if you do not think so, tell me why and show scientifical sources, I can show mine).

Second (To Dantagon): You are not right, because system rules are (rules that devs accept, those rules don't make any differrence to code or mechanisms or such, this are gms rules: which persons can become leaders) against specifical persons. Besides if even system rules would be okay I do not feel any fun to make an entertain people, each time with hope I will become a leader someday. Honestly this must look this way? Besides in the other hand if I ever was a leader I would not fell good if other people can feel any fun because I give them. I trust people can manage themselves and they don't need babysitters. In my opinion people should be free and political affiliation should be left to fanatics of the idea or men of the will, not everyone. Common people should join the group because of own profit. I think this is still fun for RP., and this doesn't mean they will ruin your political power as one of the leader of the town. Say me do you really feel good if you are sourunded by a mob, that join to the event just because nothing better is around? I think a political power must have a meaning and this doesn't mean people around you must be treated like a "wiser npcs"

I think I am right, but I am also interested how you all improve this situation of stagnation. In my country exists sentence that only cow never changes opinions.

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Post by Achae Eanstray » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:17 am

Re: Discussion: Guilds - why these can't survive

If not a proposal can you tell me what it is please and the goal you wish to accomplish? That is, how will this help the game and encourage new people to play? Just trying to clarify.

You are welcome to send a PM.. I'll be happy to move back if wish.... :)

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Post by Katharina Brightrim » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:03 am

Re: Discussion: Guilds - why these can't survive

Karrock wrote:Second (To Dantagon): You are not right
I think I am right, but I am also interested how you all improve this situation of stagnation. In my country exists sentence that only cow never changes opinions.
This is not how discussions work... Ofc you would think that your opinion is (the only) right opinion, otherwise you would not state it.

To your propsals, that aren't propsals but "scientific arguments" (wtf are scientific sources when it comes to Illa? I am curious now): How does limiting ressources solve the "Guild-problem"? I think it would rather encourage the people who are already not doing anything but grinding, to grind everything and then hoard it (Cause most PGer would not rp enough to actually trade their sh*t). Does an own static tool prevents guilds from being disbanded? Uhm.. maybe. But again that would isolate the guilds/groups from other players, which cannot be the goal.

In my opinion the reason why guilds "cannot survive" (I still think they can, taking how BoF, the noble houses of Cado, Friends of the Hammer, Runewick Rangers all survive) is not that leader chars does not have enough power (at least that's what I understood from your initial post, but I could have missunderstood that) or the low player amount. It's rather that many chars ig does not accept the hierarchy. Reading stuff like "Leaderchar XY has to prove themself worthy of my respect" is just bad rp and something that just happens because people know it won't have consequences for them. Nobody would tell their boss IRL "You have to prove yourself to be my boss, but before you did, I will treat you as if we have the same rank in our company". So if you want to make guilds living longer, you have to change that spirit of "My chars are equal to leaderchars, cause I think I deserve it more than them". And ofc the OOC-knowledge, that Player-Leaders are not GM-leaders (not able to punish you with game-mechanisms, and who cares about RP-punishments?), also works against the power-position of said chars in charge.

Oh and another point is, that guilds ofc cannot survive if their leader quits after the first recoil instead of trying something different. Also I cannot see how
All others are forced to disappear
if not being "unconstitutional" to the realms laws.

So, how to improve this situation of stagnation: I am not sure whether you got into rp lately, but from what I saw chars do their best to finally get rid of the threat Letma. Yeah, I am not a fan of "slaying everything that moves"-events either, but that's what makes players logging in, sadly. They see "Oh, an event that might result in slaying a lot of mobs. And hey, there's also a gm, so there might happen something and my char can present themself as the hero they are.", while events that do not require GM-support and are "just" rp, are visited by maybe 2 or 3 chars. I drifted off a little, but it's important for what I want to write next: Nothing will change as long as players do not move away from just doing stuff to be rewarded. Also nothing will change as long as the game is still in development, cause player-input like new building projects cannot be brought into the game as long as there are more important development-tasks. I know many people here do not want to hear this, but I think the VBU happend to early. You cannot publish an update like that before it's even ready (or at least almost ready).

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